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  1. #41
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    But isn't it the Feds who place the requirements for the mandatory training? OSHA has around 160 hours of mandatory training that people in the fire service are supposed to take. Seems to me that if they are going to make the requirements then they should at least compensate the individual for his time. 160 hours at $6 per hour comes to $960. At least give me that much credit.
    Actually, a variety of organizations place a training requirement on firefighters. ISO, NFPA, and OSHA. So you only want the feds to pay for it? Your training requirements are a minimum standard for skill competencies. Nothing more. You are required to meet them regardless of pay status. By your thinking, every career or POC member should get the same amount of money from the feds - or at least their municipality should to reimburse the requirements that OSHA says are necessary for you to remain basically competent in your profession.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillGriffin1
    The problem is that the local, county, state levels don't have quite the money that the feds do. In some states, you can't get a state income tax credit, because they don't have a state income tax, they have a sales tax. And property tax breaks won't work, because generally this would disqualify the younger members (who don't own their own homes yet), who EVERY department needs and who are the most important to recruit.
    It doesn't matter who has the money. It is not a federal responsibility to pay you for your time. It is a local responsibility since they are the ones benefiting from your time.

    If you don't have an income tax, then oh well. Let's go up to the good ol' government tit and start sucking. Like I said, don't complain when SAFER or FIRE Act is cut next year.

    Younger members don't get the benefit, well not everyone gets every tax benefit for crying out loud. I don't have kids, but I am in the age bracket that has children - I should get the tax credit then too.

    What is also forgotten is that time, mileage, and other costs related to training and education for the firefighting profession are deductable under unreimbursed expenses.

    Lobby your local town hall or county government for other incentives then, not the feds. Just going after the one with the deepest pockets isn't the way. I'll fight you on it as the bill progresses too. I just think that it is wrong.

    This tax break will not increase the rosters, and that is the sole intent that it has been pitched forth here to do.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

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  2. #42
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    I understand that OSHA is the only regulatory agency that can fine you. I never said that they weren't. I only stated that they all placed training requirements on a department. It is up to the fire department to maintain that requirement. You aren't fined unless you are investigated.

    But ISO counts it in your insurance rating. And try telling a lawyer in a deposition that while you adopt 1 aspect of the NFPA standards, you choose not to follow the other because they are not applicable. Won't fly at all. This is why we all try to meet the minimum requirement of FF I/ FF II, because it is a minimum standard of basic training that is nationally recognized and which you will be held to in a court of law most likely - and which OSHA will investigate and cite you for not meeting if they investigate.

    So should we get reimbursed for that cost too? But oh yeah, this isn't about money, it is about "thanks" and increasing recruitment.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    So should we get reimbursed for that cost too? But oh yeah, this isn't about money, it is about "thanks" and increasing recruitment.
    Oh it's about money. Whether they admit it or not, they want a "thanks" and want to increase recruitment by getting a tax break. That equals money. Always someone wanting something for free. Guess what, nothing in life is free. And the thanks, for me, is the 4 year old little girl giving me a hug because we just "saved" her mommy after they were in a car wreck, or the family who shakes our hand for saving their house from burning to the ground.

  4. #44
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    But isn't it the Feds who place the requirements for the mandatory training? OSHA has around 160 hours of mandatory training that people in the fire service are supposed to take.

    No, the Feds don't do it.

    The STATE you lived in CHOSE to adopt a State OSHA program. The Federal Law says if you adopt State OSHA, it must cover state & municipal workers.

    If you lived in a FedOSHA state, OSHA wouldn't apply to your fire department.

    On the second point of "160 hours" -- that is not an OSHA requirement in any way, shape, or form unless it's a particular State's requirement.

    FedOSHA, which is the minimum standards a State has to adopt if it has a state program, call for:

    1910.156(c)(2) - Training (Frequency)
    1. At least quarterly for interior
    2. Annual for others
    The following subjects: (Examples or Key Elements)
    1. Safety and Protective Equipment
    2. Chemistry of Fire and Fire Behavior
    3. Self Contained Breathing Apparatus
    4. Fire Streams
    5. Hose
    6. Pumping Fire Apparatus
    7. Ladders
    8. Rescue
    9. Forcible Entry
    10. Ventilation


    What may cause confusion is that classes meeting the NFPA Firefighter I (NFPA 1001?) standards are considered to *meet & excede* the OSHA requirement.

    Your department, even if it in an OSHA state, is free to create it's own training program. If you believe you can adequately train on the 10 points above in say, 40 hours, fine. Unless it's a State mandate, you do not need NFPA Firefighter I to be an interior firefighter.

    Most departments chose not to take on the additional responsibility of creating their own training program and risking having to prove to StateOSHA or others the adequacy of it and simply chose to go with a standard class meeting NFPA standards.

    But that's a choice, not a mandate.

  5. #45
    MembersZone Subscriber SeavilleFire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    If anything, this is a better option for a local benefit not at the national level.
    I agree, start small and see where it goes from there. Don't jump in with both feet.

  6. #46
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    And the SAFER grants will end up being the same as the COPS grants - no net increase in staffing in the grand scheme of things. Just look at the town in Wisconsin that returned the money. I'll bet that they will not be the only town to do so.

    Like ****ing in the wind.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  7. #47
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Wel the problem in Wisconsin was that somebody wrote the grant and didn't get the proper approvals. Chiefs and FD Administrators have to know the budgetary process and need to know when to let the people in charge of the purse strings know what is going on.
    This is part of the problem too. This has happened numerous times that I can recall with FIRE Act grants too. Like it is that difficult to pick up a phone and talk to the mayor or a town selectmen/alderman/whatever ya wanna call 'em.

    It makes me truly wonder about some people.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  8. #48
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    This is part of the problem too. This has happened numerous times that I can recall with FIRE Act grants too. Like it is that difficult to pick up a phone and talk to the mayor or a town selectmen/alderman/whatever ya wanna call 'em.

    It makes me truly wonder about some people.
    Actually, it happens the other way too...

    Fire Chiefs are encouraged to write grant applications to save the taxpayers some money, and the mayors, councilors, city and town managers know that theere must be a percentage of funds put up in order to get the grant. The Chiefs bust their humps to get all the ducks in a row, then the mutts pull the rug out from under them to save a few bucks and make sure they look good for re-election.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #49
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Oh yeah Cap. Politicians are slimy, belly crawling creatures, that will sell out their own family to stay in office (a position of power.)

    The only thing lower than a politician is an ambulance chasing attorney.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  10. #50
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Actually, the Wisconsin grant was returned because the town realized it had not budgeted for all the future expenses involved with hiring the FF's and knew they could not afford it in the long run. Remember, the SAFER grant is a 5 year committment. Not a 1 year tool.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #51
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    And the SAFER grants will end up being the same as the COPS grants - no net increase in staffing in the grand scheme of things. Just look at the town in Wisconsin that returned the money. I'll bet that they will not be the only town to do so.

    Like ****ing in the wind.
    Yup, our LEO's that were hired based on COPS are no longer LEO's. Grant ran out, they were let go. It's just another "vote for me" because I did something for now with no planning for the future.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #52
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Actually, the Wisconsin grant was returned because the town realized it had not budgeted for all the future expenses involved with hiring the FF's and knew they could not afford it in the long run. Remember, the SAFER grant is a 5 year committment. Not a 1 year tool.
    Exactly the point, you have to budget for a large increase of personnel, benefits, and budget. And you have to keep these guys on after the grant. Essentially it turns out that most of the time I will bet that retirements will just go unfilled for a short bump in manpower that decreases in the long term.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  13. #53
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Yup, our LEO's that were hired based on COPS are no longer LEO's. Grant ran out, they were let go. It's just another "vote for me" because I did something for now with no planning for the future.
    Most of the places I know of just did not fill retirements, as I mentioned in my prior post.

    Yup, great use of those FEDERAL tax dollars.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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