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  1. #1
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    Default Tax Credit for Volunteer Firefighters/EMS

    Hello All,

    I'm attempting to do something that will literally take an act of congress.

    I'm lobbying for a $1,000 federal income tax credit for active volunteer firefighters, a $1,000 tax credit for employers who let their active volunteer firefighter employees leave work to answer alarms/emergencies, and a $2,500 grant/scholarship for active volunteer firefighters.

    As we all know first hand, which has been reported by studies and by the newspapers (USA Today 11/7/05) there is a critical shortage of volunteer firefighters and our numbers our dwindling rapidly. I believe these tax credits will help to recruit and to retain active volunteer firefighters.

    I'm going to need firefighters posting here and to the forums at VFD-Funding.com to support these tax credit initiatives.

    For more information and to see what you can do to help me get this done, which should have been done a long time ago, please visit http://VFD-Funding.com

    Please give your support and your input for this, because if congress and the public see that the firefighters want/need this, we've got an excellent chance of getting this done.

    THANX,
    Will Griffin


  2. #2
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    This has been brought up before on the forums with mixed reviews.

    Why on volunteer firefighters? Why not EMS? Why not PD?

    Personally I do not see a tax credit getting any more applicants into the POC or volunteer deparments. There are numerous issues regarding the decrease in applicants including increased time demands, increasing call volumes, increasing training requirements, apathy, lack of community spirit, lack of support.

    If anything, this is a better option for a local benefit not at the national level.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  3. #3
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    Default Tax Credit for Volunteers Firefighters/EMS

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    This has been brought up before on the forums with mixed reviews.

    Why on volunteer firefighters? Why not EMS? Why not PD?

    Personally I do not see a tax credit getting any more applicants into the POC or volunteer deparments. There are numerous issues regarding the decrease in applicants including increased time demands, increasing call volumes, increasing training requirements, apathy, lack of community spirit, lack of support.

    If anything, this is a better option for a local benefit not at the national level.
    Actually if EMS are volunteers, they should qualify for the income tax credit. Same is true for volunteer fire police, which are very necessary in many communities and situations. IF FF/EMS/PD are paid, full-time or part-time, they shouldn't qualify.

    If an EMS is paid or a PD is paid, then they shouldn't qualify, because the next thing you know you'll have all municipal employees wanting it, including the sanitation engineers . . . and this could lead back to qualifying the politicians themselves...perhaps this is how to get such a bill enacted?

    And recruitment/retention of volunteers is a national problem for the VFD/EMS services. Thus, it probably now requires a national response, rather than a local response. This may not address all of the factors of the declining numbers of voluteer FF/EMS, but it does address a bunch of them, certainly those you have listed.

    Something on the local level might be the municipalities providing health insurance coverage under their muni-employees plan for FF/EMS, who meet eligibility criteria, such as response percentages, training/drills, certifications, etc.

  4. #4
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.385:

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c109br07n9::

    Bills have been intruduced, just call your Senators and Representatives offices, ask for the Legislative Assistant that deal with fire department issues, and insist that their boss, your representative, co-sponsor the bill.
    The Capitol Switchboard number is 202-224-3121
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  5. #5
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    Default Tax Credit for Volunteers Firefighters/EMS

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.385:

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~c109br07n9::

    Bills have been intruduced, just call your Senators and Representatives offices, ask for the Legislative Assistant that deal with fire department issues, and insist that their boss, your representative, co-sponsor the bill.
    The Capitol Switchboard number is 202-224-3121
    Thanx for posting that Dennis. As you know, nothing has been done since this was first proposed. It got shipped to committee, has sat there buried and nothing has compelled congress (Committee Chairman) to put it on the calendar for discussion. This is why I'm really getting active with it and getting behind it in a major way, with many changes and expansions.

    What it is going to take is this expansion and a lot of lobbying. I've asked folks to visit http://VFD-Funding.com to see what they can do to help promote/lobby this as hard as we can.

    Remember, next year is an election year and if firefighters/EMS don't unite and rally around this, then there is no incentive for congress to act. I'm personally spending a small fortune (more that the $1,000 tax credit) in just hiring lawyers/lobbyist to try to make this happen. I don't expect anybody to put up the money I have available, but I can use all of the support and confirmations of interest from the FF/EMS community we can get and show with forum postings here and at http://VFD-Funding.com/phpBB. I've identified many things that folks in the FF/EMS community can do to help get this done.

    The switchboard at congress is a start, but we need to approach these members of congress and the senate individually, with emphasis to members of each house's Ways & Means Committee...Homeland Security Committees as well.

    Drop by VFD-Funding.com and see what I'm suggesting. I'm open to all ideas and I'll gladly accept help from anybody and everybody.

    Will Griffin
    http://VFD-Funding.com

  6. #6
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Explain what "volunteer" is. If you get compensated in anyway (LOSAP, clothing/uniform allowance, etc), do you still qualify as volunteer? And as I said in another thread...does anyone really think this will bring a member in or help keep one? They still need to work their full-time job(s) so is this credit worth any possible damage it may do to us?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    IF FF/EMS/PD are paid, full-time or part-time, they shouldn't qualify.

    If an EMS is paid or a PD is paid, then they shouldn't qualify, because the next thing you know you'll have all municipal employees wanting it, including the sanitation engineers .
    I really had to laugh when I read this. Does anyone beside myself see any Ďdouble standardí here? I canít tell you how many times I have read, and been told on these very forums that there is no difference between a volunteer or career firefighter.
    How many times have fingers been pointed at myself, along with all other IAFF members because we are supposedly Ďanti-vollyí.
    Iím not looking to start a debate on this issue, I happen to think the tax-credit isnít a bad idea. What irritates me is the language I quoted here.
    Why shouldnít a career firefighter be entitled to the same tax credit? I know many of my career brothers/sisters would benefit greatly from this kind of tax break, especially in the tax hell I live in here. I donít know many volunteer firefighters, but the few I do know out earn me significantly. In fact, they wouldnít be caught dead doing my job because of my salary, and how low it is in their opinion.

    If your going to argue that volunteers are no different than career, you need to be consistent. If you want to be looked at as equal, with no difference, then there is no difference. There should be one tax break then, for firefighters, or the other option is there should be no tax break for firefighters.

  8. #8
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45
    I really had to laugh when I read this. Does anyone beside myself see any Ďdouble standardí here? I canít tell you how many times I have read, and been told on these very forums that there is no difference between a volunteer or career firefighter.
    How many times have fingers been pointed at myself, along with all other IAFF members because we are supposedly Ďanti-vollyí.
    Iím not looking to start a debate on this issue, I happen to think the tax-credit isnít a bad idea. What irritates me is the language I quoted here.
    Why shouldnít a career firefighter be entitled to the same tax credit? I know many of my career brothers/sisters would benefit greatly from this kind of tax break, especially in the tax hell I live in here. I donít know many volunteer firefighters, but the few I do know out earn me significantly. In fact, they wouldnít be caught dead doing my job because of my salary, and how low it is in their opinion.

    If your going to argue that volunteers are no different than career, you need to be consistent. If you want to be looked at as equal, with no difference, then there is no difference. There should be one tax break then, for firefighters, or the other option is there should be no tax break for firefighters.
    Jasper45....

    Amen, Bro.

    How about those firefighters who are required to live within the city/town limits? First of all... residency requirements suck. When someone is hanging out the window on the second floor of a house on fire at 03:00, do you think they would rather be rescued by a firefighter who is a resident of the town as opposed to a firefighter who lives elsewhere? I don't think so!

    They are, in effect, paying a part of their own salaries.

    Our residency requirement is 15 statute air miles from border to border, but in our last contract we were able to get it waived, as the cost of housing here is expensive (rents average $1200 a month, existing construction from $250 to $400K, new construction is $600K to 1.5 million!) It can be reinsitituted if the Fire Chief feels the need due to the lack of response for callbacks, but it would only affect new hires.

    WillGriffin1

    What criteria would you use to determine the eligibilty for the tax credit?

    Will they have to complete firefighter 1-2?
    Will they have to attend a preset number of drills?
    Will they have to respond to a preset percentage of calls?

    I see people joining just to save a grand and have no intention whatsoever of doing anything except reap the status of being a volunteer and treating the VFD as another social club.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #9
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    It's a local issue.

    Let the local government grant a $1,000 credit against local property taxes.

    While that may not do much for the 20 y/o who only owns a pickup, it will help those who own houses.

    Each County / State can decide if they have a role dependent on the local situation.

    This shouldn't a federal issue.

    We shouldn't have the Federal COPS, the Federal SAFER, or this.

    I also have a problem with rampant tax-code manipulation going on now. This is cylical -- in about 4 or 5 years, you'll see another round of "simplification" in which these numerous credits and deductions are pared down.

    If you're going to do this, strategically wait until after the next round of simplification is done, then you'll get a good 20 year run of having it around.

    matt

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    Default Tax Credit for Volunteers Firefighters/EMS

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Jasper45....

    Amen, Bro.

    How about those firefighters who are required to live within the city/town limits? First of all... residency requirements suck. When someone is hanging out the window on the second floor of a house on fire at 03:00, do you think they would rather be rescued by a firefighter who is a resident of the town as opposed to a firefighter who lives elsewhere? I don't think so!

    They are, in effect, paying a part of their own salaries.

    Our residency requirement is 15 statute air miles from border to border, but in our last contract we were able to get it waived, as the cost of housing here is expensive (rents average $1200 a month, existing construction from $250 to $400K, new construction is $600K to 1.5 million!) It can be reinsitituted if the Fire Chief feels the need due to the lack of response for callbacks, but it would only affect new hires.

    WillGriffin1

    What criteria would you use to determine the eligibilty for the tax credit?

    Will they have to complete firefighter 1-2?
    Will they have to attend a preset number of drills?
    Will they have to respond to a preset percentage of calls?

    I see people joining just to save a grand and have no intention whatsoever of doing anything except reap the status of being a volunteer and treating the VFD as another social club.
    I have this information at http://VFD-Funding.com as to what I am proposing. If you had gone to the site, you would see that I've already well addressed this. What I have is for discussion purposes and I'm looking for input and questions such as these issues from FF/EMS everywhere in the USA.

    What I don't want to see happen is some join a social club to save $1K. I've made it pretty specific, with high standards, per training, response percentages, drill percentages, etc. Some have said I've set the standards too high! Again, this is all for discussion purposes, so that we can show grassroots input and involvement. This is how this will get done and you'll move that mountain known as congress.

    And per paid FF/EMS, this type of tax incentives needs done with volunteer FF/EMS first, because attention is now on their dwindling numbers. It will therefore be a far easier sale to congress and far easier to get this done now and with just volunteers. Underpaid FF/EMS (under a certain annual income) may qualify later, as the act would then get amended to include them. First things first though. If we could include underpaid FF/EMS in the initial bill that would be great and fine with me. It won't happen for them, or volunteers either, unless the FF/EMS industry gets behind something like this and we wear out congress with a lobbying effort. Uninformed criticisms and blowing smoke just to be heard won't help anybody, won't get anything done, and will leave everybody then griping how bad things are and that nobody is trying to do anything.

    Given the dwindling numbers of active volunteer FF/EMS is a national problem, this then needs to be a national issue. State and local governments may follow with something similar for volunteer, combined, and paid FF/EMS, once you have some kind of prototype or precedence established. This could be local tax credits, or in the case of volunteers health insurance through the municipalities employees program.

    I'm very open to input, discussion and criticism on this initiative. However it needs to be informed (see what is being proposed) and constructive. This is done by finding out what the deal is at http://www.vfd-funding.com/tax_code_...initiative.htm and what you can do to help get this done. Otherwise, things will remain as they are and if nothing gets done, then who is to blame?

    Will Griffin
    http://VFD-Funding.com

  11. #11
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    If we could include underpaid FF/EMS in the initial bill that would be great and fine with me.
    Well all righty then... career firefighters and EMS personel should be included forthwith!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  12. #12
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Well all righty then... career firefighters and EMS personel should be included forthwith!
    How right you are Sir. My point all along.

    I guess POC members are not allowed under this legislation either since they are compensated. Although their ranks are dwindling just as much.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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    Default Tax Credit for Volunteers Firefighters/EMS

    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    How right you are Sir. My point all along.

    I guess POC members are not allowed under this legislation either since they are compensated. Although their ranks are dwindling just as much.
    All of this is going to depend on what we can get congress to do and agree to doing. This is why folks need to get active and support this and to reasonably discuss this in an informed manner and look beyond their own selfish interest to what needs to be done, what it is reasonably likely we can get done, what is in the best interest of the firefighting community generally, and what is in the best interest of the public.

    Someone said we should have it local only and give property tax credit, even if this excludes the younger members. However, this is a bit short-sighted and impotent, in that if there is any group that needs to be recruited it is the young firefighters. This fact should be res ipso loquitor (The thing speaks for itself)

    If there are those who want to see this go a certain way and have certain criteria, they need to get behind this, get informed, and voice their opinion in a constructive way and then get behind it to get it done. Talk is one thing, but talk without action is futile...and they need to look far beyond their own selfish interests.

    We have even had some, who didn't even bother to look at the requirements and the proposal, just blindly jump on it, asking questions/issues that were already addressed and making condemnations of the proposal, without a clue as to what they were talking about. Read, research and then write is thus a far better formula.

    Then again, these are probably the same impulsive guys, who appear to be the type that jump off the rig fully charged (even when the hose line isn't), and make a mad dash into the structure; while those who are older, wiser, better trained, and more experienced calmly evaluate the scene and read the smoke, as they put on their mask and SCBA gear, to then grab the 2.5", to go in there and drag their inexperienced and impulsive coughing, choking, and puking soot-covered fannies out of there.

    Will Griffin
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  14. #14
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    You are right, I have not read it. I will not read it. I do not support it.

    I do not support sucking off of the tit of the federal government to solve a local issue.

    Here is my proposal, if this passes there must also be an addendum that if nationwide volunteer firefighter ranks do not increase, then this law is revoked to show that it was tried and it did not work.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  15. #15
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie
    How right you are Sir. My point all along.

    I guess POC members are not allowed under this legislation either since they are compensated. Although their ranks are dwindling just as much.
    A few of the bills that have been introduced over the years have provided the tax credit pro-rated against the earnings as poc. Earn $900 as POC for the year, you get $100 of the $1000 credit.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber EFD840's Avatar
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    the next thing you know you'll have all municipal employees wanting it
    If you limit it to just volunteers, don't you think that Red Cross, Salvation Army, Public Library, etc. volunteers will want to be included? Volunteer recruitment and retention isn't just a problem for the fire service. Why limit it to those organizations? Is what we do important? Sure - but so is the work of the Red Cross volunteer working on the Gulf Coast.

    It won't work, but it will create a great opportunity to cheat on your taxes AND create more ill-will for the volunteer fire service. This is one volunteer that won't be supporting the bill.

  17. #17
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EFD840
    If you limit it to just volunteers, don't you think that Red Cross, Salvation Army, Public Library, etc. volunteers will want to be included? Volunteer recruitment and retention isn't just a problem for the fire service. Why limit it to those organizations? Is what we do important? Sure - but so is the work of the Red Cross volunteer working on the Gulf Coast.

    It won't work, but it will create a great opportunity to cheat on your taxes AND create more ill-will for the volunteer fire service. This is one volunteer that won't be supporting the bill.
    Those folks actually do have an easier time writing off their volunteer expences. Might it bring up a tad bit of ill-will? Maybe, but most other folks won't even notice. The folks I have talked to on the Hill see it as more of a thank you, than as a recruitment tool.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  18. #18
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    Default Tax Credit for Volunteers Firefighters/EMS

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Those folks actually do have an easier time writing off their volunteer expences. Might it bring up a tad bit of ill-will? Maybe, but most other folks won't even notice. The folks I have talked to on the Hill see it as more of a thank you, than as a recruitment tool.

    This is why I have talked to Schumer and others about adding the $2,500 grant/scholarship to recruit younger members and the $1,000 tax credit for employers who let their employees respond to actual emergencies during work hours, therefore it will then help as a recruitment/retention tool, rather than just a thank you. Part of the lobbying process, to expand their thinking.

    And you're right there things that one can deduct, as a S.A. and R.C. volunteer. I worked for S.A. years ago (Director of Educational and Social Welfare Programs) and as I put in extra hours, I recall that I was able to claim a lot of things that I did extra and spent on my own time.

    Will Griffin
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  19. #19
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    Every tax deduction is a de facto subsidy of the issue to which it pertains.

    There are enough exemptions. So I am opposed. The cities that have volunteers need to come to the harsh realities that people do not have the time to volunteer and act accordingly to protect their communities.

    Plain and simple.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  20. #20
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillGriffin1
    This is why I have talked to Schumer and others about adding the $2,500 grant/scholarship to recruit younger members and the $1,000 tax credit for employers who let their employees respond to actual emergencies during work hours, therefore it will then help as a recruitment/retention tool, rather than just a thank you. Part of the lobbying process, to expand their thinking.
    So what about those states that have laws protecting employees from being fired from their job if they are a call/volunteer firefighter? Jobs are already protected in many places.

    scfire86, I agree (as stated before.) A tax benefit is not going to cause an increase in the rosters of departments. And communities need to realize that they need to provide appropriately in these changing times. Sadly, twit politicians will sponsor a bill such as this just to cyrry favor, then bitch about not having money to pay for this or that.

    Gotta love politics.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

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