1. #1
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    Default NVFC work of fiction

    In the lengthy discussion that has been going on lately regarding the Newsday series on LI, I have heard the National Volunteer Fire Council's "Cost Savings Calculator" mentioned several times.

    http://www.nvfc.org/calculator/online-calculator.html

    I looked at this, and I am livid!

    We are all supposed to buy into this Paid / Vollie love fest and all get along like we are all equal, and this little work of fiction shows that the vollies are out to get us.

    What this does is takes the number of vollies in a given department, and assigns average salaries to them and spits out a number. I'll use the example of the small village near where I live. Appox. 5 sq miles, 4 separate fire companies, and a total membership combined of 75 active members. This piece of propoganda is supposed to show that a paid department covering the same area would require those same 75 people. That is complete bull@#it! In typical NYS vollie fashion, there are several fire companies in a area that would be covered by one staton in a career dept.

    Maybe it's time for the IAFF to make up the property damage calculator that figures out the rate at whch fire consumes your home while you wait for someone to respond, especially during the datime when the first crew isn't interior qualitifed, and the chief refuses to call the paid dept. 1 mile away with 24 men on duty becuase he dosen't "like" them.

    That would be just as insulting as what the NVFC and FASNY is doing to us with thier calculator.

    Any thoughts on this, or am I just going to get flamed???????

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    I chuckled when I saw this also, but us big bad IAFF members can't say anything negative about this because we are causing a divide in the fire service. If the NVFC would put the effort into making sure the volunteers followed training standards and make sure that there departments were able to provide the service and staffing too there areas and stopped worrying about are bylaws, we would all be better served. I guess that this will not happen because they do it for free!
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    Maybe the IAFF should do a study on the volunteer firefighter arson problem, then calculate the cost of the property damages caused by same.

    I took the"challenge"... what a crock of crap!

    My career FD is 73 personnel, the breakdown as follows:

    Fire Chief
    4 Deputy Chiefs
    4 Captains
    8 Lieutenants
    56 Firefighters (we are down 8 positions through retirements)
    1 Administrative Assistant ( Chiefs secretary)

    FY 2005 budget is $5.2 million

    Using my FD as the figures, the NVFC's figures for a career FD come out to:

    32 officers
    76 firefighters
    60 drivers
    2 administrative

    and a budget of $5,929,727 dollars!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    vollies are out to get us
    My budget is $70k per year between 2 stations. One of our 4 trucks is replaced every 5 years (yes, that's a 20yr life of truck). Avg response is 2 engines, 4-6 guys per engine, on scene under 4 mins (and that's the engines, not a chief). I don't need any fancy calculations, how much would that cost to pay for that same response?

    As a homeowner and taxpayer, I'm not out to get you at all. For $70k, I'd get what...a 1 man engine?


    I've seen their calculation thing, never put much weight/thought into it. Personally, I believe the NVFC is pretty much useless/voiceless.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Question Foul Ball!

    [QUOTE=CaptainGonzo]Maybe the IAFF should do a study on the volunteer firefighter arson problem, then calculate the cost of the property damages caused by same.



    It appears that you hint that career firefighters have never been charged with ARSON.

    I laugh!
    Always a day late and a dollar short!

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    The vollies are not out to get you. Get over yourself. Not all volunteer departments are overfunded country clubs clinging to an antiquated system for the sake of "tradition". Volunteer departments like mine and Bones' are more the norm. Our department is volunteer be necessity, not by preference. Every community gets the level of protection it is able and willing to support.

    My department is similar to Bones' in size and budget. Would you like to see one paid guy on duty, responding in an engine all by himself? What good would that do?

    We serve an economically depressed rural area....We simply don't have the tax base to support a paid department. Someday, if the populace is dissatisfied with the service we provide, it is their prerogative to demand a change. But they will also have to dig into their pockets to fund it. That simply isn't going to happen, at least not anytime soon.

    Incidentally, for the record, I also think the NVFC "calculator" is a crock of s***. It's not realistic to assume man-for-man replacement, for the reasons you mentioned.

    Maybe it's time for the IAFF to make up the property damage calculator that figures out the rate at whch fire consumes your home while you wait for someone to respond, especially during the datime when the first crew isn't interior qualitifed, and the chief refuses to call the paid dept. 1 mile away with 24 men on duty becuase he dosen't "like" them.
    Cheap shots like that aren't helping your case much. You sure it's the vollies out to get YOU, or is it the other way around?
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    CaptainGonzo...

    Just when I think you may be a voice of reason you post this kind of inflamatory crap.

    [QUOTE=CaptainGonzo]Maybe the IAFF should do a study on the volunteer firefighter arson problem, then calculate the cost of the property damages caused by same.

    I see, and there has never been a career firefighter who started fires for whatever motivation? A very famous incident comes to mind, I believe it was Boston several years ago where some laid off FF's and cops set fires to justify rehiring the laid off positions. I am sure there are many more but I can't think of any right now and don't care to look.

    Honestly if we are going to compare nonsense like this every time some issue comes up how about we compare how many guys in volly houses were almost killed by another firefighter with a chair? Or how many volly houses were busted for having hookers either operating out of the station or servicing guys in the station? Or real close to where I live, how many vollies were put off the FD for dealing and using drugs in the firehouse? And don't even try to make me believe that drinking is only a volly problem because you know as well as I do it is not. Don't open a door like this unless you are prepared for ALL of the many comparisons that can be made between career and volly.

    By the way I looked at the calculations thingy and frankly I laughed my *** of over it. I think basically if you need to justify your existence, no matter how, you probably don't need to exist and that goes for career or volly FD's.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp

    Just when I think you may be a voice of reason you post this kind of inflamatory crap.


    I see, and there has never been a career firefighter who started fires for whatever motivation? A very famous incident comes to mind, I believe it was Boston several years ago where some laid off FF's and cops set fires to justify rehiring the laid off positions. I am sure there are many more but I can't think of any right now and don't care to look.

    Honestly if we are going to compare nonsense like this every time some issue comes up how about we compare how many guys in volly houses were almost killed by another firefighter with a chair? Or how many volly houses were busted for having hookers either operating out of the station or servicing guys in the station? Or real close to where I live, how many vollies were put off the FD for dealing and using drugs in the firehouse? And don't even try to make me believe that drinking is only a volly problem because you know as well as I do it is not. Don't open a door like this unless you are prepared for ALL of the many comparisons that can be made between career and volly.

    By the way I looked at the calculations thingy and frankly I laughed my *** of over it. I think basically if you need to justify your existence, no matter how, you probably don't need to exist and that goes for career or volly FD's.

    FyredUp
    For the record, Brother...

    There were no laid off firefighters involved in the arson ring that struck the Boston area in the early 1980s. As a matter of fact, the skells were a bunch of call and volunteer "firefighters" who took the civil service exam to become career jakes!

    They were hoping for the cities and towns to rehire the laid off brothers and even add to the departments because of the arsons... guess who would be on the list?

    The ringleader was a part time fire dispatcher in a small Metrowest town with a call fire department.

    Their downfall was a series of photos taken by Boston FD photograher Bill Noonan. One of the photos was that of a reserve cop who was waving a gun in the air at the fire that destroyed the South Boston Army Annex. The perp was identified and brought in for questioning. After going through other photos at various arsons, he and his buddies were in an awful lot of them. The perp was suspected of theft of auto parts in addition to being a suspect in the arson ring. The perp turned states evidence and arrests were made. When they burned the South Boston Army Annex, they really sealed their fate, as that was Federal property and the ATF got involved. They were convicted and are either presently serving or served time in a federal penetentiary.

    Brother Fyredup... read the "Once again...Firefighters and arson thread" from the beginning. Tt is here...

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=40397

    The majority of the cases came right from the headlines of the Firehouse.com news page, and the vast majority of them are volunteers.

    As for the other things you brought up... that crap happens in both career and volunteer houses, and frankly I am ****ed off about it, as it makes us all look bad.

    The NVFC calculator? I should bring those figures to my chief... We want to increase staffing levels...using those figures, we would double the size of the FD. The cost figure would add over $750K to our budget!

    I don't have to justify my Department's existence... the number of times the Fed Q's wail in all three districts is justification enough!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 11-26-2005 at 11:48 AM.
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    Holy cow! I just did the calculator and in my district of 11,000 people it says I'd need 28 ops officers and 55 firefighters. To operate out of 1 station nonetheless.

    BTW - whoever the vollies are that keep saying they do it for "free" must not be doing it at all. I've vollied for 6 years and I actually paid to be there, with missed work and missed family time.

    I actually sat down one day after a worker and figure out that I missed out on roughly $130 of pay by showing up late to work. So essentially I paid $130 to go fight the fire.

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    I wish I could go to work every shift in a $7.5 Million Station complete with a Tiki-Bar in the Work-Out Room and a pole in the crapper. Although my station was renovated in 1999 and is quite comfortable and spacious it's in no way a Long Island Castle

    Perhaps someone from Long Island is viewing this and if so explain to me why the station houses have to be so elaborate ? It obviously isn't attracting members is it ? seems to me like we're spending crazy amounts of money because we can aren't we ?

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    Default 1 paid ff does the work of 3 vollies

    Newsday quotes
    ...The Firemen's Association of the State of New York, the volunteers' lobbying group, has been circulating a report to state legislators -- sharply challenged by fire unions -- that estimates that replacing volunteers with paid firefighters would cost Long Island taxpayers $1.3 billion more a year than they pay today.

    The report, which does not look at the cost of combination departments, assumes Long Island would need almost as many paid firefighters as it now has volunteers -- that the tenth-of-a-square-mile village of Stewart Manor, for example, would need 55 paid firefighters to replace its 45 volunteers. But national insurance standards say that one paid firefighter does the work of three volunteers....

    The calculator is out of whack cause there counting inactive vollie members and of course George who is 82 years old

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    Ok johnboycan I will work your math to fit our department.

    We have 28 firefighters on our volunteer roster (minus 1 for the Chief that leaves 27) 27/3= 9 FFs for you guys to cover the department with.

    That levees you with 3 per shift, but to day you have 2 because 1 has a comp day.

    Let’s say you are lucky and the Chief is in town and you get called out for a working fire. Chief gets on scene and reports a 2 story dwelling with smoke showing, who has your back. You won’t call for mutual aid because they are all wackers, that levees you 7 FFs (minus the 1 on the comp day since he went out of town, minus the one 1 that is off with another injury, minus the 2 FFs that are at other jobs (since even with tripling property taxes the payroll budget is only $200,000.00 and your brothers can not live on $9,240.00 take home a year).

    So you have 4 FFs coming 2 will need to take a truck to a pond or stream for water, and 1 will have to drive the tanker. So dose that last FF back you up on the hose line, vent, protect exposures, or stand by as your RIT.

    Please explain this to me so I can go to my trustees and tell why we need to ask the voters for the increased taxes so we can have a full time department for our 180 calls we responded on a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KEN7606
    Please explain this to me so I can go to my trustees and tell why we need to ask the voters for the increased taxes so we can have a full time department for our 180 calls we responded on a year.
    I know-- that's as dumb as buying health insurance when you're not even sick.

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    Default volunteer's

    A vollies hobbie is my carrer. I think that it is graet that LI citizens are willing to provide the money needed to let vollies play dress-up year round.

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    Amazing. Simply amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KEN7606
    Ok johnboycan I will work your math to fit our department.

    We have 28 firefighters on our volunteer roster (minus 1 for the Chief that leaves 27) 27/3= 9 FFs for you guys to cover the department with.

    That levees you with 3 per shift, but to day you have 2 because 1 has a comp day.

    Let’s say you are lucky and the Chief is in town and you get called out for a working fire. Chief gets on scene and reports a 2 story dwelling with smoke showing, who has your back. You won’t call for mutual aid because they are all wackers, that levees you 7 FFs (minus the 1 on the comp day since he went out of town, minus the one 1 that is off with another injury, minus the 2 FFs that are at other jobs (since even with tripling property taxes the payroll budget is only $200,000.00 and your brothers can not live on $9,240.00 take home a year).

    So you have 4 FFs coming 2 will need to take a truck to a pond or stream for water, and 1 will have to drive the tanker. So dose that last FF back you up on the hose line, vent, protect exposures, or stand by as your RIT.

    Please explain this to me so I can go to my trustees and tell why we need to ask the voters for the increased taxes so we can have a full time department for our 180 calls we responded on a year.
    No need to get complicated we do 180 calls a month- paid dept mutual aid agreement- we are on scene with water flowing or with pads on a patient within 10 minutes tops-sorry we don't have "trustees" we have taxpayers who are happy we provide a service that ensures a fire dept response and not the "luck of the draw" that cost them more in vollie fire co luxury taxes

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    I would like to know the NVFC methodology for their figures. They don't make any sense.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

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    So a group that exists to further the volunteer fire service (NVFC) comes up with a calculator to show the benefits of their side. When a group that exists to further the cause of career firefighters (IAFF) comes in to the fire chief to ask for more manpower do they embellish their side? Although not published online, I'm absolutely sure that if you contacted the IAFF with the same info they would give you a recommended number of firefighters higher than what you have now. As in most debates, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARL2819
    A vollies hobbie is my carrer. I think that it is graet that LI citizens are willing to provide the money needed to let vollies play dress-up year round.
    Are you threatened by volunteers or POC firefighters? That is the only reason I can figure for the anomosity. My career FD has a great working relationship with 2 neighboring POC FD's. They don't threaten us and we don't threaten them. We help each other, it's that simple.

    The mindless babble like the "your hobby is my career" is nothing but emotional clap trap designed to **** people off and nothing more than that. I would wager that what ever you do as a hobby side job is someone else's career too. But hell that doesn't matter because you aren't using your imaginary standard that vollies and POC are enemies of the fire service.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84
    So a group that exists to further the volunteer fire service (NVFC) comes up with a calculator to show the benefits of their side. When a group that exists to further the cause of career firefighters (IAFF) comes in to the fire chief to ask for more manpower do they embellish their side? Although not published online, I'm absolutely sure that if you contacted the IAFF with the same info they would give you a recommended number of firefighters higher than what you have now. As in most debates, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

    Actually if you knew anything about negotiations you would know that it makes little sense for a union to approach managment with a scheme to spend money that is not defensible. It would be a waste of time and effort. However managment, on the tax payers dime constant puts forward frivilous suggestions that it knows no union or arbitrator will accept,
    A'int No Rocket Scientist's in The Firehall

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    The point is that every community has different resources available to provide fire protection, and the fight here should not be if it is provide by a full time. combo, or on call department, the fight should be to make sure that the fire protection meets the highest standards possible. Further more I believe that to have the title of fire fighter there should only be one standard of training, discipline, work ethic, and respect. Regarding the childish remark about “I think that it is graet that LI citizens are willing to provide the money needed to let vollies play dress-up year round” you can come and drill with our department any day you want. I will put my best against you and your best any day of the week. We have firefighters on our department from fulltime and combo departments, and our number one retention issue is losing FFs to fulltime departments. To address the issues of response times good for you, and I am sure you have resources to provide that with, as for our department when the day comes to be able to staff our station we will, and we are working on that goal now. The bottom line is we cannot staff at this time, our politicians and citizens do not see the need. My final comment is that regardless of the fact you living comes from the fire service and mine dose not when it comes to being a firefighter we are the same, and I don’t begrudge you nor do I every have the need to belittle any other firefighter based on their status.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARL2819
    A vollies hobbie is my carrer. I think that it is graet that LI citizens are willing to provide the money needed to let vollies play dress-up year round.

    That's real mature....
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    Quote Originally Posted by KEN7606
    The point is that every community has different resources available to provide fire protection, and the fight here should not be if it is provide by a full time. combo, or on call department, the fight should be to make sure that the fire protection meets the highest standards possible. Further more I believe that to have the title of fire fighter there should only be one standard of training, discipline, work ethic, and respect. Regarding the childish remark about “I think that it is graet that LI citizens are willing to provide the money needed to let vollies play dress-up year round” you can come and drill with our department any day you want. I will put my best against you and your best any day of the week. We have firefighters on our department from fulltime and combo departments, and our number one retention issue is losing FFs to fulltime departments. To address the issues of response times good for you, and I am sure you have resources to provide that with, as for our department when the day comes to be able to staff our station we will, and we are working on that goal now. The bottom line is we cannot staff at this time, our politicians and citizens do not see the need. My final comment is that regardless of the fact you living comes from the fire service and mine dose not when it comes to being a firefighter we are the same, and I don’t begrudge you nor do I every have the need to belittle any other firefighter based on their status.

    "...the fight should be to make sure that the fire protection meets the highest standards possible. Further more I believe that to have the title of fire fighter there should only be one standard of training, discipline, work ethic, and respect..."

    Great I agree lets start by retiring 82 year old interior ff's who ignore laws and regulations along with the chief of the department- thats a start!

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    JBC on this I do agree and I would go one step further and say I think that there should be standards established to be a chief regardless the department. I also support requiring the same minimum training standards for all firefighters, after all fire will not cut you a break because you a volunteer.

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    This is the biggest bunch of BS I had ever seen! I am volunteer and agree that there are some volunteers out there doing for all the wrong reasons. On the flip side there also plenty of paid firemen out there that just do it for the pay check. Volunteer fire departments have been here longer then paid ones, and they are always going to be here. So whats the point in in fighting. I know of many volunteer departments that are better equipped, better trained and make better stops then some career departments. We need to all just work together. And for the record, my station gets out the door then faster then most of the paid trucks do and our members are trained just as high if not higher then 'the big city boys' south of us. All of our members are trained to the FF II, Hazmat Ops and Medical response tech level. Ontop of that we have yearly hazmat refreshers, yearly fit test, yearly scba training and yealry blood borne pathogens class. All there are mandatory for active members....
    Last edited by MEckert129; 11-30-2005 at 07:12 PM.
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