1. #26
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    Thumbs down

    RDL210, EVERY STRUCTURE THAT WE ENTER THAT FAN GOES IN THE DOOR , I AM NOT EXAGERRATING THIS . YOU GUYS CAN THINK WHAT YOU WANT BUT THIS IS THE TRUTH. THE ONLY TIME IT DOES NOT IS WHEN IT IS A DEFENSIVE ATTACK AND WE DO NOT GO INTERIOR. THE LAST FIRE WE WENT IN THE FIRE WAS IN THE BASEMENT UNDER THE STAIRS CORNER OF THE B-C SIDE OF THE HOUSE. HOWEVER WE DID NOT KNOW THIS AT THE TIME WE ENTERED WHERE THE FIRE WAS. *** CHIEF ORDERED THE FRONT WINDOW IN THE CORNER OF THE LIVING ROOM A-D SIDE POPPED FOR THE FAN. NOW YOU TELL ME I'M LOOKING FOR AMMUNITION THE KEY IS HERE WE NEVER POPPED A BASEMENT WINDOW. THE FIRE WAS IN THE BASEMENT AND WE POP A WINDOW ON THE MAIN FLOOR FOR PPV? I UNDERSTAND I MUST BE A YOUNG GUY WHO IS JUST TRYING TO MAKE A NAME FOR HIMSELF RIGHT??????? FROM THE DEPT THAT THINKS THE SMOOTH BORE IS THE DEVIL.
    Last edited by jercvfd; 12-01-2005 at 02:20 PM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefiftyfive
    Finally someone said it.

    Its a fire, there is going to be heat and smoke, just get in there with a line and knock it down!
    That is the point he is trying to make. His dept is using the fan before they even go in the structure. If he is worried about the room flashing then cut a hole in the roof.

    You wait until the fire is out and then use the fan to clear out the smoke for the homeowner. Don't use PPV while the house is burning unless you want the fire to get bigger.

    I do not beleive ventilation is a waste of recources. Vertical ventilation is very important and is not utilized as it should at most scenes. PPV is also important, just not while the house is burning.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
    http://thedarksideof911.blogspot.com/
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  3. #28
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    OK--first of all,




    Second,the risks taken by setting up a PPV during a fire attack seem nowhere near the benefits gained. Those of us in the MA area know that this thread is all too related to this subject. I agree with several others on here- engine co's go in and put the fire out, ladder guys get in and do truck work.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    Second,the risks taken by setting up a PPV during a fire attack seem nowhere near the benefits gained.
    Exactly my point. PPV is great, just not during fire attack.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
    http://thedarksideof911.blogspot.com/
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    I find it amazing that people think ventilation is a waste of resources.
    I don't they mean that. I believe that they mean that the MOST effective life saving tool we have is the first line that is properly place. Nothing saves more lives and property than this line. Sure w/o venting, the men are going to take a beating. But w/ a ballon frame, I would rather get 2 or possibly 3 lines in place, before anyone takes glass or the exterior walls.

  6. #31
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    Room and contents, perhaps. Otherwise, open the damn thing up and lay it to it.

  7. #32
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    Another thing...a lot of the older, true balloon frame houses here have 10 and 12 foot ceilings. Many times, these have been scabbed down to 8 foot ceilings, creating large void spaces throughout the house...another problem with PPV.

  8. #33
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    Talking Help for JERCVFD

    Check out "Truck Company Operations" by John Mittendorf. Use his experience to help you make the neccessary changes in your dept. You are right about the older more experienced guys not listening to the young guys, Mittendorf has the experience. Just share the information that you find in his book in a very polite way if you want positive change, if not rub there face in it.



    Two types of positive pressure ventilation:Fire Attack & Overhaul

    Fire Attack: Follow the manufacturers recommendations. Most of them state:

    Prior to introduction of hoselines.
    Locate the fire
    Select exhaust
    place hoselines
    ventilate exhaust hole
    open door, place fan, wait 10 -15 seconds (watching smoke move away)
    proceed to fire.

    Overhaul PPV is obvious, I hope. Use it after the fire is extinguished.

    When you may not want to use PPV:

    Balloon construction
    Attic fires
    Location of fire unknown
    Vent-Enter-Search
    Search & Rescue
    Overhaul
    Trench Rescue

    It's all in the book.

  9. #34
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    Default Bones

    [QUOTE=Bones42]hmmm, "NEVER" use PPV in a balloon frame...
    It won't help keep an attic fire in the attic?

    What is this all about? An attic fire needs O2. The only thing a fan will do to an attic fire is give it O2. Do you want to burn the roof off?

  10. #35
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    Attic fire. Make a hole in roof or gable end, place fan to pressurize rest of house. Bad stuff go up and out.

    I've met Mittendorf. Funny thing, he did a class here where we did exactly that and it worked like a charm. He taught some really excellent ventilation stuff.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Room and contents, perhaps. Otherwise, open the damn thing up and lay it to it.
    Well if it has developed past Room and Content....then venting is done for you.....all the more reason to quickly and aggressivly attack the fire.

    Granted...it is easy for me to say that given our manpower is going to be 3 Engines and 2 Trucks....to start with....somewere in the relm of 12-14 Engine men and 12 Truckies....(minus the ECC and LCCs)....first 2 Engines stretch the 1st line and the 3d and 4th get the second.....but 1st, 2d and 3d can and have stretch the first 3 lines by themselves on occation.

  12. #37
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    Jercvfd,
    You have a legitimate concern if the whole story is portrayed. PPV or PPA is tactical consideration at a fire scene. When you officer is doing his 360 he should gain an idea of the location of where the fire is. From there they can decide if there is an exit in the general area of the fire to make positive pressure an option. If it is a viable option, take the window then start the fan, advance the hoseline into the structure and put the fire out. If it is not then use an alternate means of ventilation. Building construction, location and extent of the fire, as well as manpower available should play into the factor of your tactical decision.

    Positive Pressure fans are tools. Just like any tool when applied correctly they are great and when not applied correctly they can have devastating results.
    Ventilation is a tactic. When applied correctly it is great and when not applied correctly (if at all) it makes for a long day/night no matter which type you choose. Horizontal, vertical, mechanical (positive or negative), natural or non existent each can make or break a fire scene depending on its application. This has no dependency on the type of construction either.

    Balloon frame houses are a challenge no matter what. You still need to explorer the top and the bottom and everything in between regardless of the type of ventilation. And you still need to open it up to confirm the fire is out.

    Next time your department acquires a structure to train on…TRY IT. What better way to learn the pros and cons but it a controlled training environment.

    There are a lot of people that refuse to buy into the positive pressure concept. I believe that is because they have not had the chance to try it out. Call it what you want but to deny a tactical option without giving it a try is ignorant. A lot of departments have limited manpower and to delay venting at the expense of the firefighters health and that is what is going to get somebody hurt. On the same note positive pressure is not a substitute for a truck company.

    Using PPV for salvage and overhaul is effective as long as during the suppression they did not take all the windows out. Remember positive pressure has one entrance and one exit. Anything more is going to have a swirling effect on the air inside the box. You can control it by closing doors but it must be coordinated.

    Everything we come across has limitations and curveballs. We overcome through experience and education. The more you gain the more competent you become.
    IACOJ

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    We put a fan at the door of every fire we respond to as well, we may not use it, but it holds the door open real well so the hoseline feeds easier.

    I would use it on balloon frame sometimes. Upper level fire, yes. Or, if you have a clear room and contents fire use it. The fire can not get into the walls if the plaster/drywall has not burnt away yet.

    Overall, ventilation is great. It can be used for so many things and it not nearly done enough. The results of not ventilating are almost always worse then the negitive aspects of ventilation.

    Its a great feeling to feel a cool rush of air go past you and see smoke shooting out all the windows. If you have good men on the line, and they pulled a big enough line, the incresed fire growth is almost a non issue.

    In general a balloon frame house is going to be a tough fire no matter what, but the main difference is to expect and inspect for unuasual fire spread and growth on every level at all times.

    Lammrover
    "Plan for the worst, hope for the best"

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  14. #39
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    Thumbs up Big Enough Line That's Another Story

    Thank You To Everyone, I Believe I Have Gotten The Whole Spectrum On Ppv. Never Thought I Would Get Such An Array Of Information . I Believe Ppv Is A Great Tool When It Is Used Correctly And A The Right Time Of The Fire. The Point I'm Trying To Make With Our Dept. Is That It Is Not The Only Way To Vent A Structure.
    Pulling A Big Enough Line Is Interesting. 1 3/4 Is Our Interior Line.
    The Only Time A 2 1/2 Comes Off The Truck Is For Defensive Attack On Occasion. I Have Yet So See Big Water Go Into A Structure On My Dept. I Guess One Of The Big Factors Is That Our Preconnect Are 1 3/4 And Our Only Two Foam Lines On The Engine. Our Dept. Is A Very Firm Believer In Foam . I Will Check Out Mettendorf's Forum.
    However We Did Win On E Small Battle Last Evening , And We Now Have A New Asst. Chief Not Is A Lot More Willing To Listen To Ther Possible Options At A Fire. So We Will See How Things Go.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    Check out "Truck Company Operations" by John Mittendorf. Use his experience to help you make the neccessary changes in your dept. You are right about the older more experienced guys not listening to the young guys, Mittendorf has the experience. Just share the information that you find in his book in a very polite way if you want positive change, if not rub there face in it.



    Two types of positive pressure ventilation:Fire Attack & Overhaul

    Fire Attack: Follow the manufacturers recommendations. Most of them state:

    Prior to introduction of hoselines.
    Locate the fire
    Select exhaust
    place hoselines
    ventilate exhaust hole
    open door, place fan, wait 10 -15 seconds (watching smoke move away)
    proceed to fire.

    Overhaul PPV is obvious, I hope. Use it after the fire is extinguished.

    When you may not want to use PPV:

    Balloon construction
    Attic fires
    Location of fire unknown
    Vent-Enter-Search
    Search & Rescue
    Overhaul
    Trench Rescue

    It's all in the book.


    All that BEFORE a line has even gotten to the fire. Sounds great...except for the person on the other side of the fire. Could someone please explain exactly why we need to blow air into the fire room before knocking it down?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    Could someone please explain exactly why we need to blow air into the fire room before knocking it down?
    To make and easy knockdown hard!!

    We never ppv before the fire has been knocked down. We set the fan at the door ready for use. We coordinate ppv with the attack, depending on conditions that are present. The interior calls for vent, we start ppv.

    Why make things worse on ourselves. PPV is great thing when used and timed properly. If not it can make things worse as most of that use it already know.
    Ryan
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    It's all in the book.
    Not knocking you, but has the book had 1st hand experience?
    Ryan
    E/O, EMT-I
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    FTM-PTB EGH RFB KTF DTRT
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    Irish pride's what I got, I got alot so don't dipute it!!

  18. #43
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    There is absolutely no need for ppv in any house fire (or any other I can think of). Lead out, kick in the door, find the fire, put it out. Don't try to make it more complicated than it needs to be. By the time the fire is out, all the windows are gone, so there should be no need for them after, either. I'm not sure who convinced so many firefighters that ppv fans were needed, but they were wrong and now we seemingly have many departments out there wasting time and resources on a goofy and unneeded tactic. Next fire you go to, try speed and water - it always works.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOSER303
    Not knocking you, but has the book had 1st hand experience?
    I agree. While there are alot of good instructors out there, I have worked under some of the well known ones, and they are just like everyone else. Often, the person that can write well or can present themselves well seem to become the "experts" writing books, doing the lecture circut etc...I am 100% for new tactics and tools (Thermal Imaging Camera for example) if they signifigantly improve operations in the goal of saving lives and property. However, it seems that alot of people want to re-invent the wheel, just to say they progressed. We all have the luxury of those who have come before us and alreadyfigured it out. Change for the sake of change is assinine.

  20. #45
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    Default In agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Attic fire. Make a hole in roof or gable end, place fan to pressurize rest of house. Bad stuff go up and out.

    I've met Mittendorf. Funny thing, he did a class here where we did exactly that and it worked like a charm. He taught some really excellent ventilation stuff.
    Bones42,

    I agree will what you said this time. But not what you said in your other quote about isolating the attic fire.

    And by the way, congratulations on meeting Mittendorf. Did you get to shake his hand too?

  21. #46
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    Default Experience

    HOSER303 & Matty J,

    Have you ever heard of a dentist who wrote a book about Fire Fighting?

    What and where are you guys coming from?

    Books are written from people with experience, who want to share their experience. And inturn, by reading them you should learn from the experience shared in the pages.

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    Default PPV is an option not a need.

    PPV or PPA is a ventilation option, I don't think anyone has stressed that PPV is a need.


  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    HOSER303 & Matty J,

    Have you ever heard of a dentist who wrote a book about Fire Fighting?

    What and where are you guys coming from?

    Books are written from people with experience, who want to share their experience. And inturn, by reading them you should learn from the experience shared in the pages.
    I'm coming from the fact that I dont always agree with a guy just because he's written a book, or advocates a certain way of operating. Writing a book or making it into the lecture circut means he's done a good job getting his ideas out there, it doesnt mean everyone has to agree with them. I know that some of the "famous" lecturers out there are not as worshiped at home as they are on the road. Thats where I'm coming from.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    There is absolutely no need for ppv in any house fire (or any other I can think of). Lead out, kick in the door, find the fire, put it out. Don't try to make it more complicated than it needs to be. By the time the fire is out, all the windows are gone, so there should be no need for them after, either. I'm not sure who convinced so many firefighters that ppv fans were needed, but they were wrong and now we seemingly have many departments out there wasting time and resources on a goofy and unneeded tactic.............

    I couldn't agree more.....I don't know why we need to reinvent the wheel.

    I understand that PPV is an option.....but I would rather get the first line in place properly and operate aggressivly than do ANYTHING else.....(extreme situations are a different story)........


    TAKE HEED!!!!

    Next fire you go to, try speed and water - it always works

    Well said Chicago......

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    PPV...yes it works, but so does opening up the building. What is so hard about taking windows, or making a hole in the roof for ventilation. 90% of the time, the friggin fan gets bumped or kicked so that it's not effectively 'sealing' the door anyway. It has it's places...FF isn't one of them.
    FF/NREMT-B

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