1. #51
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    I should add that I agree it works. But it depends on your definition of works. So does shooting water through the window, not conducting a search, writing off the building (and in turn the block) writing off anyone unfortunate enough to be trapped, etc.........Any tactic can be said to work, depending on your definition of "works".
    Last edited by MattyJ; 12-10-2005 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Baby Steps

    jercvfd was the orginal post here and he is needing help getting his department to realize that they can not use a fan on every fire. This is a department culture and cultures are hard to change. So in an attempt to get jercvfd some ammo to affect change, we need to first get his department to recognize how proper PPV/PPA should be implemented. After they start using it correctly, maybe they will see that it's much easier to just break out windows or as others have said "speed and water".

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    I'm coming from the fact that I dont always agree with a guy just because he's written a book, or advocates a certain way of operating. Writing a book or making it into the lecture circut means he's done a good job getting his ideas out there, it doesnt mean everyone has to agree with them. I know that some of the "famous" lecturers out there are not as worshiped at home as they are on the road. Thats where I'm coming from.

    Exactly MattyJ.....I feel that just because you have the knowledge to write a book doesn't necessarily mean that you have the common sense to implement the use of equipment into the job on the fire ground. We have a captain on our dept. that is probably the most book smart person I know, but when it comes to making a decision on the fire ground that to most people would be common sense....he sucks. He has to take the time to rummage through his brain and find what his book says and by the time he finds out what should be done .. the common sense guys have already done it.

    Do you have to read the warning label on the back of a Preperation H tub to know that it is not to be taken orally or does common sense tell you that its not to be!!

    Also don't misunderstand me...I think the PPV is a great tool when used properly and timed right.
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    Thanks for the update MattyJ & Hoser303. We are now on the same page.

    Just about everthing we do on the fireground can be referenced back to some book, somewhere. Sure, we are selective about who and what we listen too and we should be.

    I'm not a PPV/PPA fan. I prefer for most fires, (especially house fires) horizontal natural ventilation. I will use vertical ventilation in hostile fire situation like flashover or backdraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    I will use vertical ventilation in hostile fire situation like flashover or backdraft.
    I am glad you are able to use vertical vent...our chief told us that as long as he is chief we will never use vertical ventilation. Its sad cause it works so good when done right. We had some training in a house a while back and I asked to practice vertical vent.....so we did long and behold it is a good thing that we never use it for there was only about 2 of us on the dept. that knew how to do it and had any prior experience with it....pretty sad that the mutts dont want to use it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOSER303
    I am glad you are able to use vertical vent...our chief told us that as long as he is chief we will never use vertical ventilation. Its sad cause it works so good when done right. We had some training in a house a while back and I asked to practice vertical vent.....so we did long and behold it is a good thing that we never use it for there was only about 2 of us on the dept. that knew how to do it and had any prior experience with it....pretty sad that the mutts dont want to use it.
    Why the hell not?????? If you need to open a roof - open it! Whats his deal?

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    I would like for all members that have posted on this topic to go to www.firechief.com and click on the tactics and operations tab under articals by topics. Under that you will find a great article about PPV and PPA titled " The Power of Positive Preasure".
    Please read this article and learn alittle something about this topic.
    I will post a few quotes to help you go there and read this.

    The difference between PPV and PPA, as we see it, is that PPV takes place after initial fire attack crews have entered the structure, water has been deployed and fire knockdown is beginning. This process will always produce the same negative effects:


    As the thermal balance is disrupted, temperatures increase throughout the fire area, especially in the victim survival zone, which is the 30 inches of space above the floor.

    The lethal products of combustion are pushed down to the victim survival zone, where victims then inhale them.

    Oxygen levels at the victim survival zone decrease due to the survivable air being replaced by lethally hot and toxic gases.

    Soot is created throughout the fire area, increasing property damage.

    Firefighter safety and effectiveness decrease because firefighters are operating in an environment that would kill them without PPE.


    I like the last one.

    As we arrived there was heavy smoke and fire coming from the structure. We placed hose lines, started the blowers, ensured that an adequate exhaust was being made and then walked upright into the structure. We were able to see the interior of the structure that we were entering and made a great stop with little water or smoke damage

    We all tend to get stuck in the rut. If people didn't try to improve things we would be driving around sports cars with wooden wheels.
    Don't just say thats stupid it will never work, try it you just might like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain5505
    Don't just say thats stupid it will never work, try it you just might like it.
    I never said it wouldn't work, just that it was unneeded. I read your article, some good stuff if you are interested it that sort of thing. But still, whats the point? I guarantee you that we will beat you in and get the building out sooner every time if you stop to set up fans. Not to mention the fact that with row houses, iron fenced gangways, blocked gang ways, how in the hell are you, as the first arriving officer, going to get to the rear to break a window? Walk around the block? Since the opening in the rear has to be the right size, you are just giving up on the truck searching from the rear as soon as they force entry? Lots of grabs are made from the rear and you have just given up on those by choosing your fans over rapid attack. Superior ventilation? Ventilation and extinguishment are supposed to be simultaneous - the truck searchs and vents as you find the fire and put it out. Also at the same time the ladder is going to the roof with two in case you need that. What are all your truckies doing as they are waiting for the fan and hose? I would rather get in and get the fire out than wait until I can walk in standing up. Hell, wait another hour and you wont have to lead out at all!

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    Well I see we come from opposite sides of the country. We run a 6 man engine first out. Operator, hydrant man, leaves me 4 more, 2 streaching a line for attack, one with the fan, one to take out the window. Window man, fan man, and hydrant man, leaves me for 2 in 2 out and command.

    A window does not have to be taken out in the back for row housing, take out the top story window. PPA needs a opening equal or a little bit larger than were the fan is set up.

    We don't have a truck company nearest one is the next town down. You do with what you have and the way your team works best. I see were your coming from. But thats how you do it. I was in the same boat a few years back that the new fan that was a pain in the *** was best left on the engine, hell we did it for so long the other way bust down the door knock down the fire let someone else clear the smoke and heat.

    Well that was before I thought, ya know, I just might learn something from someone else. Be a leader not just a follower. I have gotten into the mind frame that "what the heck lets try it guys" if it doesn't work we try something else.

    Experiment on the training ground and make your mistakes there.

  10. #60
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    Speaking of PPV, I had to perform a little PPV on my own house today when my sister put a 2" piece of garlic bread in the microwave for 1 min. Opened up the front door and the sliding glass door in the kitchen, brought out the box fan and was ventilated in no time flat!

    Not a balloon frame though.
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    I'm going to continue to side with ChicagoFF, what is so hard about opeing up the damn building. Most PPV fans are dumping 24,000CFM of fresh air into the fire building...does that seem like the smartest thing to do? What did almost every single department do before PPV..opened up the building. I think people forget sometimes that necessary damage does have to be done to the property to save it. While we don't need to go smashing every window we can find, taking out a few is necessary
    FF/NREMT-B

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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain5505
    PPA needs a opening equal or a little bit larger than were the fan is set up.
    Are you sure? I thouight the outlet had to be just a little smaller so the pressure would build inside the structure forcing out the smoke. Really, I'm asking, as we gave up PPV/PPA as we couldn't make it work beneficially for us.

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    As my engine company is advancing a line into the building, the truck company has split into 2 teams. The interior truck team (of 3) is searching ahead of the line, forcing entry, locating fire/victims. The exterior team of 2 plus the driver, have the following positions: roof man, OV (outside vent), driver. OV's job is to take the window of the fire room if it has not self vented. In the time it takes them to reach the side/back of a building, the driver has the fan off the truck at the front door ready for use if needed. If it's taking you more than 30 seconds to get a fan in place, you have other issues. If you wish to go into a room and contents and keep the room closed up, that's fine. I prefer getting that room opened and having things go much faster/easier. I don't have high-rises, rowhouses, and all those fences/gates/obstructions to deal with. If I did and they were delaying my access to sides/rear, that would change what we do.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default We took our fan off just the other day

    Of course that was only to get a hay drag off to help with a large deep seated rubbish fire. I would prefer they be left either on the piece or at the station.

    We also like the idea of less smoke and soot damage as some link to PPV use. We just like to do it by putting the damn fire out as soon as possible. Our method of stretching line, venting and opening the tip has worked for a very long time and will continue to work. No fires are still burning in this city dispite our failure to use PPV.

    ChicagoFF, I'll ride the back step with you my friend.

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    One thing is for sure. You better make sure you are charged up and ready to go before you crank the fan on.Cause if you aint your gonna blow the fire all over the place. I havent dealt much with balloon frame construction but I know if the fire is low in the strubture you better be looking in the attic for extension or its gonna wind up burning the attic before you realize whats happening.PPV works great but it has its limitations just like anything.

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    Default Captain5505 Article

    Capt.

    I agree that it's a good article. Something that gave me concern was they think the fan mantains the thermal balance in the fire area. Not true.

    You can maintain thermal balance during a fire fight buy using your water wisely (no over applying it). Their article left me with the impression that they did not know how to do that, so the fan has become their answer. They dump the thermal balance and it's okay with them because the positive pressure pushes it out the exhaust. The exhaust is on the other side of the fire so they don't feel it. What would happen if a victim were on the other side of the fire? Some might say that you use fans (PPA or PPV) when you know the victims location is not in between the fire and the exhaust or the fire is on an outside wall.

    Can a person use natural horizontal ventilation and maintain thermal balance with their water application, of course.

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    Well if it has developed past Room and Content....then venting is done for you.....all the more reason to quickly and aggressivly attack the fire.
    Well, maybe. I've been on several with fire extending throughout the house with little or no self-ventilation, especially with the newer triple pane style of windows. By the time you open up the entire house (vertical and/or horizontal) you've usually created more openings than one single fan can handle, and it just sits there in front of the front door, making annoying noises, being in the way, and wasting gasoline. One room and contents, early on with minimal extension, sure...take that window, start the fan and go in. Anything bigger or hotter than that will need more venting. Usually, a balloon frame house is old, big, and has tall ceilings and windows, and isn't in the best of shape, to start with. With those tall ceilings, plenty of large windows to take out, and knowing that the fire is most likely in the walls and attic, I just don't see the sense in blowing on it. I know that in many of the larger mulit-story houses in our area, our PPV fan would be pretty ineffective with most or all of the windows taken completely, anyway...it just doesn't move that much air. Plus, the damn thing is so loud, you can't hear yourself think at the doorway, or anywhere else within 30 feet of it, for that matter. After having to shout over the noise just to communicate, I just want to kick it down the street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Well, maybe. I've been on several with fire extending throughout the house with little or no self-ventilation, especially with the newer triple pane style of windows. By the time you open up the entire house (vertical and/or horizontal) you've usually created more openings than one single fan can handle, and it just sits there in front of the front door, making annoying noises, being in the way, and wasting gasoline. One room and contents, early on with minimal extension, sure...take that window, start the fan and go in. Anything bigger or hotter than that will need more venting. Usually, a balloon frame house is old, big, and has tall ceilings and windows, and isn't in the best of shape, to start with. With those tall ceilings, plenty of large windows to take out, and knowing that the fire is most likely in the walls and attic, I just don't see the sense in blowing on it. I know that in many of the larger mulit-story houses in our area, our PPV fan would be pretty ineffective with most or all of the windows taken completely, anyway...it just doesn't move that much air. Plus, the damn thing is so loud, you can't hear yourself think at the doorway, or anywhere else within 30 feet of it, for that matter. After having to shout over the noise just to communicate, I just want to kick it down the street.
    Very good points. I feel the same way you do about PPV fans. I to have been to several fire involving balloon construction......but I can say...I can't remember one with any "modern" windows.....usually only the counter weight windows......The area that I vollied in has tons of balloon frame building.....but no one really "updated" them...for whatever reason.

    I deal with the thermal pane windows on a regular basis now....and yes I have been to a bunch of fires were....only smoke was pushing.....no fire visible.....once we got in....we found the fire usually spead throughout....I remember two that the fire was in the walls....really hot and smokey.....that's not something I would want to bring a fan into....or open up to early.....

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    Ok, so after almost 70 posts, I think we all agree that PPV at times is useful, other times it's not.


    Holy Crap! A thread on firehouse.com where people are in agreement?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Ok, so after almost 70 posts, I think we all agree that PPV at times is useful, other times it's not.


    Holy Crap! A thread on firehouse.com where people are in agreement?
    I DISAGREE! Whew, that was close - a near agreement!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I DISAGREE! Whew, that was close - a near agreement!
    I as well will disagree, for me, though my managment doesn't see it the same, ventilation should stay as it was in back in the day, they opened the building then, tactcally speaking it's the same now, as it was in 1970. The big 7 come to mind when I think tactics. It's a plan for success if you stick to it.

    Rescue
    Exposures
    Confinement
    Extinguishment
    Ventilation
    Overhaul
    Salvage.

    Add a bit of ICS and I don't know how anyone can go wrong.
    FF/NREMT-B

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I DISAGREE! Whew, that was close - a near agreement!
    Not so fast...I also disagree

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    Seriously though, after reading all the posts and the supplied articles, I still see absolutely no reason to use PPV. Bones42, it seems like your guys know what they are doing and that you have the logistics of fan deployment down pat, and if you like doing it that way great. I will say though that I don't ever think you will see fans used here. I really don't see the need. I'd rather get in fast and put the fire out with a minimum of distractions or side operations.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I'd rather get in fast and put the fire out with a minimum of distractions or side operations.
    Again, Well Said

    I'd prefer the breeze from a properly placed ppv fan on one of those hot muggy days at da beach.

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by tjsnys; 12-16-2005 at 01:01 PM.

  25. #75
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    The good ol' PPV debate! What the heck - here goes:

    We do use PPV here in the Southland on occasion. Like Bones we leave it to the O/S team of the truck crew; the OSV ff takes the fan off the truck as he walkes up to the house, cranks the fan and turns it sideways to the door. He then continues to do his job of cutting utilities and venting the fire room window, etc.

    Then when us guys on the engine get to the seat of the fire w/ our line, I will request that the driver turn the fan to the door if I feel conditions warrant PPV. I don't wait on the fan- I would do the same thing w/ or w/o it but why not use it to improve conditions if I can?

    All that being said, our construction is very different from yours and most of our fires are in SFD w/ 10-30' separation from the next SFD, no basements, and few houses over two stories. Different tactics for different regions

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