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  1. #41
    Firehouse.com HOSER303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    Could someone please explain exactly why we need to blow air into the fire room before knocking it down?
    To make and easy knockdown hard!!

    We never ppv before the fire has been knocked down. We set the fan at the door ready for use. We coordinate ppv with the attack, depending on conditions that are present. The interior calls for vent, we start ppv.

    Why make things worse on ourselves. PPV is great thing when used and timed properly. If not it can make things worse as most of that use it already know.
    Ryan
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    It's all in the book.
    Not knocking you, but has the book had 1st hand experience?
    Ryan
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  3. #43
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    There is absolutely no need for ppv in any house fire (or any other I can think of). Lead out, kick in the door, find the fire, put it out. Don't try to make it more complicated than it needs to be. By the time the fire is out, all the windows are gone, so there should be no need for them after, either. I'm not sure who convinced so many firefighters that ppv fans were needed, but they were wrong and now we seemingly have many departments out there wasting time and resources on a goofy and unneeded tactic. Next fire you go to, try speed and water - it always works.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOSER303
    Not knocking you, but has the book had 1st hand experience?
    I agree. While there are alot of good instructors out there, I have worked under some of the well known ones, and they are just like everyone else. Often, the person that can write well or can present themselves well seem to become the "experts" writing books, doing the lecture circut etc...I am 100% for new tactics and tools (Thermal Imaging Camera for example) if they signifigantly improve operations in the goal of saving lives and property. However, it seems that alot of people want to re-invent the wheel, just to say they progressed. We all have the luxury of those who have come before us and alreadyfigured it out. Change for the sake of change is assinine.

  5. #45
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    Default In agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Attic fire. Make a hole in roof or gable end, place fan to pressurize rest of house. Bad stuff go up and out.

    I've met Mittendorf. Funny thing, he did a class here where we did exactly that and it worked like a charm. He taught some really excellent ventilation stuff.
    Bones42,

    I agree will what you said this time. But not what you said in your other quote about isolating the attic fire.

    And by the way, congratulations on meeting Mittendorf. Did you get to shake his hand too?

  6. #46
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    Default Experience

    HOSER303 & Matty J,

    Have you ever heard of a dentist who wrote a book about Fire Fighting?

    What and where are you guys coming from?

    Books are written from people with experience, who want to share their experience. And inturn, by reading them you should learn from the experience shared in the pages.

  7. #47
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    Default PPV is an option not a need.

    PPV or PPA is a ventilation option, I don't think anyone has stressed that PPV is a need.


  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    HOSER303 & Matty J,

    Have you ever heard of a dentist who wrote a book about Fire Fighting?

    What and where are you guys coming from?

    Books are written from people with experience, who want to share their experience. And inturn, by reading them you should learn from the experience shared in the pages.
    I'm coming from the fact that I dont always agree with a guy just because he's written a book, or advocates a certain way of operating. Writing a book or making it into the lecture circut means he's done a good job getting his ideas out there, it doesnt mean everyone has to agree with them. I know that some of the "famous" lecturers out there are not as worshiped at home as they are on the road. Thats where I'm coming from.

  9. #49
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    There is absolutely no need for ppv in any house fire (or any other I can think of). Lead out, kick in the door, find the fire, put it out. Don't try to make it more complicated than it needs to be. By the time the fire is out, all the windows are gone, so there should be no need for them after, either. I'm not sure who convinced so many firefighters that ppv fans were needed, but they were wrong and now we seemingly have many departments out there wasting time and resources on a goofy and unneeded tactic.............

    I couldn't agree more.....I don't know why we need to reinvent the wheel.

    I understand that PPV is an option.....but I would rather get the first line in place properly and operate aggressivly than do ANYTHING else.....(extreme situations are a different story)........


    TAKE HEED!!!!

    Next fire you go to, try speed and water - it always works

    Well said Chicago......

  10. #50
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    PPV...yes it works, but so does opening up the building. What is so hard about taking windows, or making a hole in the roof for ventilation. 90% of the time, the friggin fan gets bumped or kicked so that it's not effectively 'sealing' the door anyway. It has it's places...FF isn't one of them.
    FF/NREMT-B

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  11. #51
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    I should add that I agree it works. But it depends on your definition of works. So does shooting water through the window, not conducting a search, writing off the building (and in turn the block) writing off anyone unfortunate enough to be trapped, etc.........Any tactic can be said to work, depending on your definition of "works".
    Last edited by MattyJ; 12-10-2005 at 07:37 PM.

  12. #52
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    Default Baby Steps

    jercvfd was the orginal post here and he is needing help getting his department to realize that they can not use a fan on every fire. This is a department culture and cultures are hard to change. So in an attempt to get jercvfd some ammo to affect change, we need to first get his department to recognize how proper PPV/PPA should be implemented. After they start using it correctly, maybe they will see that it's much easier to just break out windows or as others have said "speed and water".

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    I'm coming from the fact that I dont always agree with a guy just because he's written a book, or advocates a certain way of operating. Writing a book or making it into the lecture circut means he's done a good job getting his ideas out there, it doesnt mean everyone has to agree with them. I know that some of the "famous" lecturers out there are not as worshiped at home as they are on the road. Thats where I'm coming from.

    Exactly MattyJ.....I feel that just because you have the knowledge to write a book doesn't necessarily mean that you have the common sense to implement the use of equipment into the job on the fire ground. We have a captain on our dept. that is probably the most book smart person I know, but when it comes to making a decision on the fire ground that to most people would be common sense....he sucks. He has to take the time to rummage through his brain and find what his book says and by the time he finds out what should be done .. the common sense guys have already done it.

    Do you have to read the warning label on the back of a Preperation H tub to know that it is not to be taken orally or does common sense tell you that its not to be!!

    Also don't misunderstand me...I think the PPV is a great tool when used properly and timed right.
    Ryan
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  14. #54
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    Thanks for the update MattyJ & Hoser303. We are now on the same page.

    Just about everthing we do on the fireground can be referenced back to some book, somewhere. Sure, we are selective about who and what we listen too and we should be.

    I'm not a PPV/PPA fan. I prefer for most fires, (especially house fires) horizontal natural ventilation. I will use vertical ventilation in hostile fire situation like flashover or backdraft.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    I will use vertical ventilation in hostile fire situation like flashover or backdraft.
    I am glad you are able to use vertical vent...our chief told us that as long as he is chief we will never use vertical ventilation. Its sad cause it works so good when done right. We had some training in a house a while back and I asked to practice vertical vent.....so we did long and behold it is a good thing that we never use it for there was only about 2 of us on the dept. that knew how to do it and had any prior experience with it....pretty sad that the mutts dont want to use it.
    Ryan
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOSER303
    I am glad you are able to use vertical vent...our chief told us that as long as he is chief we will never use vertical ventilation. Its sad cause it works so good when done right. We had some training in a house a while back and I asked to practice vertical vent.....so we did long and behold it is a good thing that we never use it for there was only about 2 of us on the dept. that knew how to do it and had any prior experience with it....pretty sad that the mutts dont want to use it.
    Why the hell not?????? If you need to open a roof - open it! Whats his deal?

  17. #57
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    I would like for all members that have posted on this topic to go to www.firechief.com and click on the tactics and operations tab under articals by topics. Under that you will find a great article about PPV and PPA titled " The Power of Positive Preasure".
    Please read this article and learn alittle something about this topic.
    I will post a few quotes to help you go there and read this.

    The difference between PPV and PPA, as we see it, is that PPV takes place after initial fire attack crews have entered the structure, water has been deployed and fire knockdown is beginning. This process will always produce the same negative effects:


    As the thermal balance is disrupted, temperatures increase throughout the fire area, especially in the victim survival zone, which is the 30 inches of space above the floor.

    The lethal products of combustion are pushed down to the victim survival zone, where victims then inhale them.

    Oxygen levels at the victim survival zone decrease due to the survivable air being replaced by lethally hot and toxic gases.

    Soot is created throughout the fire area, increasing property damage.

    Firefighter safety and effectiveness decrease because firefighters are operating in an environment that would kill them without PPE.


    I like the last one.

    As we arrived there was heavy smoke and fire coming from the structure. We placed hose lines, started the blowers, ensured that an adequate exhaust was being made and then walked upright into the structure. We were able to see the interior of the structure that we were entering and made a great stop with little water or smoke damage

    We all tend to get stuck in the rut. If people didn't try to improve things we would be driving around sports cars with wooden wheels.
    Don't just say thats stupid it will never work, try it you just might like it.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain5505
    Don't just say thats stupid it will never work, try it you just might like it.
    I never said it wouldn't work, just that it was unneeded. I read your article, some good stuff if you are interested it that sort of thing. But still, whats the point? I guarantee you that we will beat you in and get the building out sooner every time if you stop to set up fans. Not to mention the fact that with row houses, iron fenced gangways, blocked gang ways, how in the hell are you, as the first arriving officer, going to get to the rear to break a window? Walk around the block? Since the opening in the rear has to be the right size, you are just giving up on the truck searching from the rear as soon as they force entry? Lots of grabs are made from the rear and you have just given up on those by choosing your fans over rapid attack. Superior ventilation? Ventilation and extinguishment are supposed to be simultaneous - the truck searchs and vents as you find the fire and put it out. Also at the same time the ladder is going to the roof with two in case you need that. What are all your truckies doing as they are waiting for the fan and hose? I would rather get in and get the fire out than wait until I can walk in standing up. Hell, wait another hour and you wont have to lead out at all!

  19. #59
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    Well I see we come from opposite sides of the country. We run a 6 man engine first out. Operator, hydrant man, leaves me 4 more, 2 streaching a line for attack, one with the fan, one to take out the window. Window man, fan man, and hydrant man, leaves me for 2 in 2 out and command.

    A window does not have to be taken out in the back for row housing, take out the top story window. PPA needs a opening equal or a little bit larger than were the fan is set up.

    We don't have a truck company nearest one is the next town down. You do with what you have and the way your team works best. I see were your coming from. But thats how you do it. I was in the same boat a few years back that the new fan that was a pain in the *** was best left on the engine, hell we did it for so long the other way bust down the door knock down the fire let someone else clear the smoke and heat.

    Well that was before I thought, ya know, I just might learn something from someone else. Be a leader not just a follower. I have gotten into the mind frame that "what the heck lets try it guys" if it doesn't work we try something else.

    Experiment on the training ground and make your mistakes there.

  20. #60
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    Speaking of PPV, I had to perform a little PPV on my own house today when my sister put a 2" piece of garlic bread in the microwave for 1 min. Opened up the front door and the sliding glass door in the kitchen, brought out the box fan and was ventilated in no time flat!

    Not a balloon frame though.
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