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  1. #61
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    I'm going to continue to side with ChicagoFF, what is so hard about opeing up the damn building. Most PPV fans are dumping 24,000CFM of fresh air into the fire building...does that seem like the smartest thing to do? What did almost every single department do before PPV..opened up the building. I think people forget sometimes that necessary damage does have to be done to the property to save it. While we don't need to go smashing every window we can find, taking out a few is necessary
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.


  2. #62
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain5505
    PPA needs a opening equal or a little bit larger than were the fan is set up.
    Are you sure? I thouight the outlet had to be just a little smaller so the pressure would build inside the structure forcing out the smoke. Really, I'm asking, as we gave up PPV/PPA as we couldn't make it work beneficially for us.

  3. #63
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    As my engine company is advancing a line into the building, the truck company has split into 2 teams. The interior truck team (of 3) is searching ahead of the line, forcing entry, locating fire/victims. The exterior team of 2 plus the driver, have the following positions: roof man, OV (outside vent), driver. OV's job is to take the window of the fire room if it has not self vented. In the time it takes them to reach the side/back of a building, the driver has the fan off the truck at the front door ready for use if needed. If it's taking you more than 30 seconds to get a fan in place, you have other issues. If you wish to go into a room and contents and keep the room closed up, that's fine. I prefer getting that room opened and having things go much faster/easier. I don't have high-rises, rowhouses, and all those fences/gates/obstructions to deal with. If I did and they were delaying my access to sides/rear, that would change what we do.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #64
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    Default We took our fan off just the other day

    Of course that was only to get a hay drag off to help with a large deep seated rubbish fire. I would prefer they be left either on the piece or at the station.

    We also like the idea of less smoke and soot damage as some link to PPV use. We just like to do it by putting the damn fire out as soon as possible. Our method of stretching line, venting and opening the tip has worked for a very long time and will continue to work. No fires are still burning in this city dispite our failure to use PPV.

    ChicagoFF, I'll ride the back step with you my friend.

  5. #65
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    One thing is for sure. You better make sure you are charged up and ready to go before you crank the fan on.Cause if you aint your gonna blow the fire all over the place. I havent dealt much with balloon frame construction but I know if the fire is low in the strubture you better be looking in the attic for extension or its gonna wind up burning the attic before you realize whats happening.PPV works great but it has its limitations just like anything.

  6. #66
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    Default Captain5505 Article

    Capt.

    I agree that it's a good article. Something that gave me concern was they think the fan mantains the thermal balance in the fire area. Not true.

    You can maintain thermal balance during a fire fight buy using your water wisely (no over applying it). Their article left me with the impression that they did not know how to do that, so the fan has become their answer. They dump the thermal balance and it's okay with them because the positive pressure pushes it out the exhaust. The exhaust is on the other side of the fire so they don't feel it. What would happen if a victim were on the other side of the fire? Some might say that you use fans (PPA or PPV) when you know the victims location is not in between the fire and the exhaust or the fire is on an outside wall.

    Can a person use natural horizontal ventilation and maintain thermal balance with their water application, of course.

  7. #67
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Well if it has developed past Room and Content....then venting is done for you.....all the more reason to quickly and aggressivly attack the fire.
    Well, maybe. I've been on several with fire extending throughout the house with little or no self-ventilation, especially with the newer triple pane style of windows. By the time you open up the entire house (vertical and/or horizontal) you've usually created more openings than one single fan can handle, and it just sits there in front of the front door, making annoying noises, being in the way, and wasting gasoline. One room and contents, early on with minimal extension, sure...take that window, start the fan and go in. Anything bigger or hotter than that will need more venting. Usually, a balloon frame house is old, big, and has tall ceilings and windows, and isn't in the best of shape, to start with. With those tall ceilings, plenty of large windows to take out, and knowing that the fire is most likely in the walls and attic, I just don't see the sense in blowing on it. I know that in many of the larger mulit-story houses in our area, our PPV fan would be pretty ineffective with most or all of the windows taken completely, anyway...it just doesn't move that much air. Plus, the damn thing is so loud, you can't hear yourself think at the doorway, or anywhere else within 30 feet of it, for that matter. After having to shout over the noise just to communicate, I just want to kick it down the street.

  8. #68
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Well, maybe. I've been on several with fire extending throughout the house with little or no self-ventilation, especially with the newer triple pane style of windows. By the time you open up the entire house (vertical and/or horizontal) you've usually created more openings than one single fan can handle, and it just sits there in front of the front door, making annoying noises, being in the way, and wasting gasoline. One room and contents, early on with minimal extension, sure...take that window, start the fan and go in. Anything bigger or hotter than that will need more venting. Usually, a balloon frame house is old, big, and has tall ceilings and windows, and isn't in the best of shape, to start with. With those tall ceilings, plenty of large windows to take out, and knowing that the fire is most likely in the walls and attic, I just don't see the sense in blowing on it. I know that in many of the larger mulit-story houses in our area, our PPV fan would be pretty ineffective with most or all of the windows taken completely, anyway...it just doesn't move that much air. Plus, the damn thing is so loud, you can't hear yourself think at the doorway, or anywhere else within 30 feet of it, for that matter. After having to shout over the noise just to communicate, I just want to kick it down the street.
    Very good points. I feel the same way you do about PPV fans. I to have been to several fire involving balloon construction......but I can say...I can't remember one with any "modern" windows.....usually only the counter weight windows......The area that I vollied in has tons of balloon frame building.....but no one really "updated" them...for whatever reason.

    I deal with the thermal pane windows on a regular basis now....and yes I have been to a bunch of fires were....only smoke was pushing.....no fire visible.....once we got in....we found the fire usually spead throughout....I remember two that the fire was in the walls....really hot and smokey.....that's not something I would want to bring a fan into....or open up to early.....

  9. #69
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Ok, so after almost 70 posts, I think we all agree that PPV at times is useful, other times it's not.


    Holy Crap! A thread on firehouse.com where people are in agreement?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Ok, so after almost 70 posts, I think we all agree that PPV at times is useful, other times it's not.


    Holy Crap! A thread on firehouse.com where people are in agreement?
    I DISAGREE! Whew, that was close - a near agreement!

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I DISAGREE! Whew, that was close - a near agreement!
    I as well will disagree, for me, though my managment doesn't see it the same, ventilation should stay as it was in back in the day, they opened the building then, tactcally speaking it's the same now, as it was in 1970. The big 7 come to mind when I think tactics. It's a plan for success if you stick to it.

    Rescue
    Exposures
    Confinement
    Extinguishment
    Ventilation
    Overhaul
    Salvage.

    Add a bit of ICS and I don't know how anyone can go wrong.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I DISAGREE! Whew, that was close - a near agreement!
    Not so fast...I also disagree

  13. #73
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    Seriously though, after reading all the posts and the supplied articles, I still see absolutely no reason to use PPV. Bones42, it seems like your guys know what they are doing and that you have the logistics of fan deployment down pat, and if you like doing it that way great. I will say though that I don't ever think you will see fans used here. I really don't see the need. I'd rather get in fast and put the fire out with a minimum of distractions or side operations.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    I'd rather get in fast and put the fire out with a minimum of distractions or side operations.
    Again, Well Said

    I'd prefer the breeze from a properly placed ppv fan on one of those hot muggy days at da beach.

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by tjsnys; 12-16-2005 at 12:01 PM.

  15. #75
    MembersZone Subscriber cowtown's Avatar
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    The good ol' PPV debate! What the heck - here goes:

    We do use PPV here in the Southland on occasion. Like Bones we leave it to the O/S team of the truck crew; the OSV ff takes the fan off the truck as he walkes up to the house, cranks the fan and turns it sideways to the door. He then continues to do his job of cutting utilities and venting the fire room window, etc.

    Then when us guys on the engine get to the seat of the fire w/ our line, I will request that the driver turn the fan to the door if I feel conditions warrant PPV. I don't wait on the fan- I would do the same thing w/ or w/o it but why not use it to improve conditions if I can?

    All that being said, our construction is very different from yours and most of our fires are in SFD w/ 10-30' separation from the next SFD, no basements, and few houses over two stories. Different tactics for different regions

  16. #76
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Damn, I tried.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  17. #77
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    Here is a good read from Fire Chief magazine:

    http://firechief.com/mag/firefightin...reinforcement/

  18. #78
    MembersZone Subscriber dadman's Avatar
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    Two fires I was at that had fan use:

    Most recent:
    Front side of two story house, facing road, A side, with front door enter of wall.
    Wind coming from backside/C side. Not a strong wind, but noticeable judging from smoke column direction.
    Rear 1 story room addition roof burnt out.
    Most, if not all upper windows busted or burnt out.
    Hose going through front door.
    Fan in front door pushing in.
    Wasn't inside initially, and don't know if the fan helped or not. Might have to ask.
    Seemed like fan was in the way during overhaul and salvage.

    Earlier:
    Cellar/short small basement fire.
    Fan placed in front of cellar window, glass broken out, smoke sucked out, outside entry door opened.
    Seemed like the size of fan, with the cellar size, one air entry and exit was effective in clearing the nasties out.

    Other times:
    Fan pushing in with only a window or two open. Seemed effective.

    Time and place for it.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain5505
    Well I see we come from opposite sides of the country. We run a 6 man engine first out. Operator, hydrant man, leaves me 4 more, 2 streaching a line for attack, one with the fan, one to take out the window. .

    Hey hey hey don't make this an east/west thing! Jay Olson, a captain with Portland Fire teaches a great class on contraindications of PPV. He subscribes in large part to the same feelign that often, you are wasting time with the fan when you can have the fire out. Additionally, it's not a great idea if you don't know where you're pushing the fire (particularly when you have possible victims who are also in unkown locations).
    "The more we sweat in training, the less we bleed in battle."

  20. #80
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    Why is it that the same statements keep getting made about "not knowing where you are pushing the fire to" or "what about vic's trapped between the fire and the exhaust"?

    I am not going to say that PPV/PPA is the answer for every department. But the arguements against it seem to be (not by all but by the majority that I have read) partly founded on these points.
    If you are going to utilize the PPV/PPA "tool" then you MUST know where you are pushing the fire. This is ensured by making an "adequate" exhaust opening for smoke, heat, etc. to exit the fire building. You then KNOW where the fire is going.....OUT THE EXHAUST OPENING. With the exhaust opening made at the fire room, as high as possible, then the heat/fire gases/smoke are released to the outside making the REMAINDER of the building more tenable for firefighters and possible trapped occupants.
    If you have someone standing in the window then it is obvious (even to us dumb ***** southern boys) that you must remove them before using that opening as an exhaust. If you aren't planning on using that window/opening as an exhaust then when the rescue is effected then you must compensate for this opening by either shutting the window or closing an interior door to take this lower pressure opening out of the high pressure/low pressure equation.
    The proper application of PPV/PPA will keep the fire "pinned" back at the exhaust opening or at least slow the spread as compared to neutral pressure throughout the structure. This is not a cure-all or a universal tool but it is a tactic that has been utilized with great benifit in many departments (mine included).

    The tools that we as firefighters have developed over time have been learned for the most part by use in the real world struggle against "the beast" and by training. Don't knock it just because you don't or haven't used it. We are all trying to do the same job. You may do something on your department that I don't and I may do something on my department that you don't but we are fighting the same enemy. If your method works for you, then USE IT. My method works for me and I will continue to USE IT. Don't knock it because it is done differently. Encourage each other to keep fighting the good fight and try to keep yourself and your brothers/sisters safe.


    *would someone call the tower to help me down off of my soap box*

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