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  1. #101
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    Default A good resource for tactical ventilation

    Hey guys,
    Paul Grimwood has an article on tactical ventilation and there are also links to research in the area from his site.

    http://www.firetactics.com/tacticalventilation.htm

    Most of you have probably heard of Grimwood already. I find a lot of his articles valuable because he has worked all over the world and developed his theries based on his varied learning and experience.
    Hope this is useful.


  2. #102
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    I Have Purchased Grimwoods 3d Firefighting And Tactics. I Agree It Is A Great Resource. Some Of It Is A Little Bit Over My Head When You Get Into The Scientific Part. Anyways Since I Started This Thread A Few Months Ago Boy Have Things Changed. Our Dept. Has Done A 180 With Ppv. We Have Used It In Our Last 4 Structures And It Has Worked Great. We Had A Coupkle Officers Step Down And That Has Really Helped. It Sure Is Nice Having Officers Listen Instead Of Their Way Or No Way. Democracy Is A Great Thing. Just Wanted To Thank You Guys For All Of The Info, It Sure Made A Huge Difference.

  3. #103
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    Democracy Is A Great Thing.
    Except it has no place on the fire ground or in combat.
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  4. #104
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    Your Awesome Vinnie B

  5. #105
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    What does everyone have against just going in and putting water on the fire? It seems to be a pretty straight forward operation. You don't need a fan or foam or overly complicated "tactics", just a hose and a good crew. It always seems to work just fine here.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    Your Awesome Vinnie B


    Thanks, Sorry you feel that way brother.....and I am waiting for an answer for the TL placement comment.........or are you just here to troll about?
    Last edited by VinnieB; 04-03-2006 at 11:47 PM.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    What does everyone have against just going in and putting water on the fire? It seems to be a pretty straight forward operation. You don't need a fan or foam or overly complicated "tactics", just a hose and a good crew. It always seems to work just fine here.
    Seems pretty simple doesn't it Chicago........?
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  8. #108
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    What does everyone have against just going in and putting water on the fire? It seems to be a pretty straight forward operation. You don't need a fan or foam or overly complicated "tactics", just a hose and a good crew. It always seems to work just fine here.
    It is easy to talk about these things as if they are obvious to everyone in the country or the world for that matter. yet it is quite another to compare the 4,5 or 6 man companies of Chicago and the FDNY to many places where the standard is a 3 man company. Both FD's I run with would love to have the staffing to do all the things you guys do. Unfortuantely we don't so we adjust tactics and equipment to do the best we can with what we have.

    Sometimes that means PPV, sometimes that means foam, sometimes it means doing things in a way that you can't even begin to comprehend...just as many can't comprehend the way you guys do things.

    Who is right? Both sides depending on the situation.

    FyredUp

  9. #109
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp

    Who is right? Both sides depending on the situation.

    FyredUp

    Fair enough........but how many men does it take to stretch a line? 2 maybe 3? Like I have always said....getting water on the fire quickly will eliminated most of your problems.

    Stay Safe FyedUp
    Last edited by VinnieB; 04-04-2006 at 01:04 PM.
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  10. #110
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    VinnieB...

    Fair enough........but how many men does it take to stretch a line? 2 maybe 3? Like I have always said....getting water on the fire quickly will eliminated most of your problems.
    My volly FD has staffing issues during the day. Several years ago we eliminated all 1 3/4 inch hose and 2 1/2 inch hose and went to 2 inch. We use combo nozzles (yes I know, but hopefully this year a 1 inch smoothbore will relace that) backed with an 1 1/4inch slug. We flow from 160 to 290 gpm from that one handline and we do it usually with 2 people on the line. If that isn't enough we got to a preconnected monitor on 3 inch hose to flow up to 1000 gpm.

    We do most often operate on the fast water prinicple, preconnects and tank water while establishing a water supply. So I understand the putting water on the fire eliminates the problem concept.

    Hell, one of the truck manufacturers we had in during preliminary talks told us the way we fight fire with big water was old fahioned and damaging. Of course he was trying to sell us CAFs at the time. We politely but forcefully told him he should seel trucks and we will fight fire the way we know works.

    You stay safe too Brother,

    FyredUp

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    Fair enough........but how many men does it take to stretch a line? 2 maybe 3? Like I have always said....getting water on the fire quickly will eliminated most of your problems.

    Stay Safe FyedUp
    What about when its a 4 man shift with an engine and an aerial responding? 6 guys, we are lucky to get that when the 2nd engine comes in. I swear, some of you would be VERY hard pressed to work the way we HAVE to!!

    I am not saying anything against you VinnieB, but c'com man. You should really see how some of us smaller departments have to hang it on the line at every fire. Its scarey, but its the way we have to operate. We could discuss this forever I don't want to do that, just realize that some of us are not so fortunate with staffing. We do exactly what you said, go in and put the fire out, but we often do it with the aid of the fan and plain and simple, IT WORKS!! I know this, when the Capt. comes out (BY HIMSELF) and say thanks for getting the fan going so quick it really cleared up fast, I feel good!
    Local 216
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilson10
    What about when its a 4 man shift with an engine and an aerial responding? 6 guys, we are lucky to get that when the 2nd engine comes in. I swear, some of you would be VERY hard pressed to work the way we HAVE to!!
    We're in a similar boat as you. Yeah it stinks, but this is even more reason to get it right the first time. Why stretch a line that won't kill the fire? With limited personnel the officer must prioritze objectives. Will the greatest number of lives be saved by getting a line between the fire and the victims and egress? Do we just go do rescue with no line? Is a 1.75" line worth hooking to the standpipe?
    Our dept. runs with 5 FT guys on the initial run, and our basic principle is to get one line in operation before anything else when obvious rescues are not present. We go all out for the first line. When more personnel arrive, they ensure the first line is in operation before stretching another. If its a 2.5" fire (ADULTS) than thats what gets pulled. We hold our officers accountabile for their decisions. Right or wrong they're asked: Why did you choose the crosslay? Why did you stretch the first line in the side door not the front? How did you task your initial crews? We make each fire a learning experience. Most of these "mini-critiques" now are quite short as we've learned from past incidents and training.
    So yes, it can and should be done, even with a small response. It takes hard work and more thought sometimes but we have a lot less parking lots than a lot of places.

    We need to stop whining that we can't do the right thing with limited personnel. Do it right every time and whine to the Mutts about personnel! Check out Dave McGrail's (Denver FD) article in Fire Engineering last year (May?) He has great points on using the 2.5" line in general. He talks about numbers of firefighters, nozzles and standpipe issues. Also a few good opics of standpipe pipes that are nearly clogged from rust.

  13. #113
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    Vinnie I already apologized for the idiotic crap I said the other day. The point I was trying to make was if we see something that the IC doesn't . He will listen to us, rather than making his decisions blind like our past asst. chief would do. The teamwork on the fireground has improved 3 fold since we have made the changes. Our past asst. chief was the reason i started this thread, to get some feedback from other F.F's who have had this problem. If we hadn't made the change someone would have eventually gotten hurt . You were right,Democracy was the wrong word to use. As far as a TL goes, we have ext. ladders longer than our piece of junk.
    Last edited by jercvfd; 04-05-2006 at 02:27 PM.

  14. #114
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilson10
    What about when its a 4 man shift with an engine and an aerial responding? 6 guys, we are lucky to get that when the 2nd engine comes in. I swear, some of you would be VERY hard pressed to work the way we HAVE to!!

    Actually.......YOU would be supprised. It is not uncommon for my Engine Company, to catch a job with out the Truck. We have a large response area and help isn't around the corner like in most places in NYC. I am in a 5 man Engine, Actually 6, ECCs are not counted. So that means 1 Officer and 4 Men. When we catch a job alone, the doorman takes Irons with him and forces the door with the boss, and once the Controlman is finished with his duties, he is to act as the roofman and get the bulkhead door open.

    Also, were I used to live there is a full time dept....The City of Newburgh FD. They have 2 Engines and 1 Truck....the Engine Co. is only 3 men total...I think the truck is 4. They catch a very good amount of work on a regular basis....and they stick to the basics. Fast water and venting......thier help is from the surrounding Vollie depts and a USAF Fire Dept Engine Co. that is a bit of a haul away.

    It's not about staffing.....the most important task is getting that first line in place, how many men are needed for that? I know Newbugh does it with 2 men, the officer and a ff......all but 65 of our 209 Engine Companies do it with 3 men.....the officer doesn't play out line. What is the difference between our 3 guys, Newbughs 2, and your 3? Why waste time on anything BUT that first line.
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  15. #115
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    I agree brother, I guess my MAIN point is with the way we operate and the way are responses are. My problem is 2 guys on each apparatus and I brought that into this discussion when I started to think about the way we vent and our poor staffing. It works for us and honestly it has not bit us in the *** so I never thought TOO much about it. I have really been thinking a lot lately about trying to get atleast my shift to roll with 4 on either the engine or our aerial and the way we operate in general. Even though things get done there is ALWAYS room for improvement and I guess thats why I have been posting some on these forums instead of just reading. I am open minded and thats one thing we need to be learn. So far its working. My brain has really been turning the last few days LOL

    Stay safe bro!
    Local 216
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  16. #116
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    Default My two cents......

    I have read the article about P.P.A. that ADSNWFLD and rmhinkle made links to and it makes since to me.
    I have been on FS (fire-structure) as we call them at my Departments..... and I have noticed that on the fires where we have done well coordinated P.P.A. it works sweet......... however, I have also been on fires where the ventilation was terrible. Trust me, I greatly appreciated the fires with P.P.A. inplace.
    As for the comments about Mittendorff........ I believe he worked at L.A.F.D., and they know a thing or two about fires, so I don' t believe he is just some book-smart guy that is "pushing his opinions." Even if he is....... every Department has these type of guys, so to condemn and deny that they exist is............... well, add your own words. Also, the "Truckies" at my full-time Department recently attended a class with Mittendorff, and to see the difference in the opinions of our crew is AWESOME!!!!! All of the personnel that attended the class are now big proponents of P.P.V. and have also come to the realization that there are different tools available to us and we need to investigate and train on all of them...... then decide what works best for the situation.
    The key to successful P.P.A. is a well coordinated use of hoselines, fan (s), and the making of the exhaust hole (means of exhausting the products of combustion).
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

  17. #117
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    Thumbs down

    When using PPV you need to have a idea about what is going on inside.

    First you need to know where the fire is located in the structure. You need a place to blow the fire and smoke (exit point). You need an engine company READY to make entry. You need to have an idea where possible victome might be located (not always easy), bucause you run the chance of pusshing fire and smoke onto them. And the most inportant is you need to be sure that the fire has not extended into the walls, ceiling ECT.

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