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  1. #1
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    Default Ppv In A Balloon Frame House

    i HAVE BEEN A VOL. F.F. FOR 5 YEARS AND OUR DEPT. IS GOING TO GET SOME ONE HURT. WHEN WE GET ON A STRUCTURE THAT WE ARE GOING TO ENTER THE FIRST THING THAT THE OFFICERS DO IS THROW THAT FAN IN FRONT OF THE DOOR . MY PROBLEM IS I DONT THINK SOME OF OUR OFFICERS UNDERSTAND HOW PPV REALLY WORKS. IS IT NOT A BIG NO NO TO USE IT WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THE FIRE IS? ANYWAY IAM AM LOOKING FOR ANY INFO I CAN GET ON THIS ESP. IN BALLOON FRAME CONST.
    TRYING TO HELP BEFORE SOMEONE GETS HURT.

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    You would have to be completely insane to PPV a structure fire in a balloon-framed home. It will end up in the walls, then the attic and the house is toast. It completely defies logic. Basement fires in those homes end up in the attic almost immediately without the help of PPV; imagine what PPVing the place would cause!

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    It is hard to believe that your company officers do not have enough sense about when to use PPV. You have to realize how dangerous it can be to use PPV at the incorrect time. If PPV is started before fire attack is ready, the fire can increase and spread through the structure!!!!

    There is a path of air moving from the fan to the vent openings. Fire that is within this path of air will follow it towards the vents. If the fire is not within this path, it is usually unaffected but if it is close enough, it can create a venture type of effect and pull the fire toward the vent openings. Now in your case where you set up a fan immediately, you probably have no vent openings in the structure. In this case, fire has can spread into void spaces and other areas. The fire can actually be pulled back towards the fan, which means it is being pulled back to you as you are entering the structure. You also must know the location of the fire before using PPV during a fire attack. If you do not know the location of the fire, you cannot locate a proper place for vent openings. If you make vent opening where you should not, the fire can spread to unburned areas of the structure. You also need to know if there are any victims and there location. If they are in that path of air between the fan and the fire, the fire can be pushed towards them.

    You must fully understand PPV before it can benefit you. If used the way it should be, PPV is an excellent way to ventilate. I suggest your entire department learn about this topic and do some extensive training before they make matters worse.

    Hope this helps.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    I was ranting and raving so much about PPV that I did not even mention balloon type construction. You almost cannot ventilate a balloon type structure since all you will do with a PPV fan is circulate the air throughout it. Vertical ventilation might work but cannot be used since you cannot go on those types of roofs. Basically you would have to use a steam conversion to put the fire out and let the smoke clear itself out. If you had to, I am sure this would be a cause for hydraulic ventilation.

    A fan could be set up in the "dome" but we do not have the tools or the time to do so. I would say hydraulic ventilation or let it clear out itself.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    hmmm, "NEVER" use PPV in a balloon frame...

    So, like, if the fire is in the attic or on the second floor, a PPV fan at the front door will burn the entire building down? It won't help keep an attic fire in the attic? It won't help protect the interior stairway leading to that second floor? If I have a room and contents in the back room and vent that room via window, a fan won't help push everything out that same window?

    Sounds to me like people that have never trained on PPV might need to do some.

    "NEVER" is a very powerful word.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    hmmm, "NEVER" use PPV in a balloon frame...
    Quote Originally Posted by jmitchell
    You almost cannot ventilate a balloon type structure
    I never said "NEVER". I do have to apoligze though. I was thinking of something completly different. There is also something called "balloon homes" where the home is actually like a balloon and has a large dome on top. chrisdurkin44 was talking about balloon framing where the studs run the full height from ground to attic, and that should not effect PPV. Now Chris, you mentioned that the fire would get into the walls and into the attic. Yes that is true but you should not be using PPV directly into the fire anyways. Fire will travel up the wall like that anyways in a balloon frame without ventilation. As soon as it gets into the wall, it is only a matter of time until it gets into the attic because there is nothing to block it.
    Last edited by jmitchell; 11-30-2005 at 06:23 PM.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    I believe the "balloon type roof" you're thinking of is the "truss roof" or "bow string truss roof".

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    This is getting scarey. PPV in a balloon frame house is nuts unless it is a top floor fire because if it wasn't a top floor fire when you started the PPV it will be after you do!

    I just don't subscribe to the "we do this on every structure fire" theory. No 2 fires are the same. I don't care if they were in the same building 2 months apart, they are and will be different. Other then being in full PPE and using your brain, there is no standard carved in stone response to a structure fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeNphyer
    I believe the "balloon type roof" you're thinking of is the "truss roof" or "bow string truss roof".
    Thats the one.

    Lets all get back to the point here. Weather it is a regular wood frame or a balloon frame, jercvfd's dept needs training on PPV. To be honest I am not a master on balloon frame construction because we do not see it down here. The only experience I have with it, is what I have read. jercvfd, I suggest you tell your officers that what they are doing is dangerous and they must train on this subject ASAP.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeNphyer
    I believe the "balloon type roof" you're thinking of is the "truss roof" or "bow string truss roof".
    If you are indeed talking about bowstring roofs then more info can be found by looking for the Hackensack, New Jersey, automobile dealership fire in 1988.

    Good truss roof info can be found here:
    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/

    Back on topic: I wouldn't say "never" use PPV on balloon frame structures but it would have to be a very special condition before I would try it. We hava ton of these buildings and an unchecked fire will go anywhere and everywhere.
    We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering.

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    I have never seen PPV used in any begining stage of a fire. The only time I have ever seen PPV used is during overhaul and even then I think it is a difficult/dangerous tactic. What LITTLE fire that was left in the cieling just took off. We did not loose it because we were there but it just illustrated how dangerous it is to use. Looking for nothing but trouble using PPV IMO. Is there anyone here that can say that they have used PPV in the initial stages of a fire successfully; in any type of structure? Also; I don't know very much about this tactic, just the little I have seen!
    Last edited by firefiftyfive; 11-30-2005 at 07:06 PM.

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    Exclamation

    I'll still go with the NEVER PPV in balloon frame. Especially in attic fires. The open stud bays will allow the positive pressurization to push fire and smoke down into the stud bays, and subseqently the ceiling voids and basement. Now you have a serious fire. An attic fire can easily be ventilated with vertical ventilation and extinguishment from below. Probably one of the easier fires to contain.

    The problem we have in recent times is nobodys is wrong. Classes are tuaght and students make uninformed comments and nobody tells them they're wrong. We would want to hurt someones feelings. Its easy to say never, I've said it twice here. Everyone knows that when you say never it means almost never. Almost never means: it was the most viable option at the time. The key is: You better be right or you'll NEVER hear the end of it!

    JMITCHELL: thanks for clearing the vertical vent comments up. I was beginning to think that we'd sketed by death all those times we vented the roof on balloon framed structures.


    FTM-PTB

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    Absolutely. Look in the Hotshot photo's for the Middleport fire. The PPV fan was set up and going as soon as we had water to the nozzle. Went from smoke that was banking down to being able to walk where ever we wanted to go. Big help using it in the initial attack. Forgot to tell you it was a Nov. 11 2005 fire.
    Last edited by SSHANK42; 11-30-2005 at 07:43 PM.

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    We often go in behind the fan. Its called positive pressure attack. Takes coordination of all crews involved to work.

    FF takes the window closest to the fire, fan is directed in through the door, attack line is advanced right behind it. Works well, but not for all fires or construction types.

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    To me, everyone is trained differetly and everyone will always have their own opinion about the way it needs to be done. I do not agree with setting up a fan at the same time we going in for a fire attack but the people who do may have a tactic that I have never heard of. If it works for you then great.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    JMITCHELL: thanks for clearing the vertical vent comments up. I was beginning to think that we'd sketed by death all those times we vented the roof on balloon framed structures.
    When I was talking about not being on the roof for balloon structures, I was actually mistaken and talking about the houses that have a dome shaped roof where you can only do vertical ventilation off an arial ladder. Like I said earlier, I do not have much experience on balloon frame construction so I may be wrong but it seems the roof would be a dangerous place being that most fires in balloon framed homes usally end up in the attic pretty quick.

    I really think it depends on the structure weather we can PPV balloon framed homes or not. I have seen in this post that you can PPV them and you can not PPV them. Remember all structures are different so I would say none of us really know until we see the structure for ourselves.
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    Default Ppv Vent Thanks

    THANKS GUYS FOR ALL OF THE FEED BACK. THE MAIN GOAL THAT THESE FEW OFFICERS IS THAT THEY DO NOT WANT A FLASHOVER THAT IS WHY THEY THROW THE FAN IN THE DOOR. I AM STARTING TO THINK THAT PPV IS THEIR WAY OF FINDING THE FIRE. A LOT OF YOU MUST BE THINKING THAT THIS DEPT AND THEIR OFFICERS ARE PLAIN STUPID. HOW DO YOU CHANGE THE MENTALITY OF THESE PEOPLE ESPECCIALLY WHEN THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE LEADERS. FF'S THAT STARTED ON THIS DEPT. WITHIN THE LAST 7 YEARS UNDERSTAND PPV AND HAVE HAD TRIANING ON IT , FOR SOME REASON AFTER THAT PERIOD, THERE IS A HUGE TRAINING GAP. THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO THE SO -CALLED YOUNG GUYS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE EXP.. AGAIN THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT
    Last edited by jercvfd; 11-30-2005 at 09:12 PM.

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    If they are worried about a flashover then they can vent the roof (depending on the circumstances). Unless your department has a set plan for coordenated fire attack with PPV like ewelk33 has, they will do more bad then good. Possibly you can sit down with your company officer and express your concerns with him. This will never change if you keep your mouth shut. I am sure they will not want to take advice from someone with less experience then them but it is worth a shot. Do not go in there and try to be a smart ***** or anything, just be polite and ask him/her if another way would be better.

    Hope it works out for you.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    Sorry but I think it's nuts to PPV a balloon frame home when making a structure fire attack. Fire spreads easily enough in those homes, why make its job even easier then it is?

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    Or even better, just get in there and put water on the fire and quit goofing off with fans and breaking windows. Talk about an overused, unneeded tactic. There is absolutely no reason that you need to use a PPV fan at a house fire. Period.

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    Clean cool air for possible victims, less heat, and better visibility. Nope can't think off any reason to use PPV in fire attack.

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    Thumbs up

    I’ve been through formal classes on the proper use of PPV (Pros & Cons).

    I’ve used PPV on several fires both actual and training, and it works out very well when properly applied. Biggest thing to remember is “Where is the fire” and “What is it doing” and make *#@ sure you have a hose lines in place before PPV operations take place

    Can you do more damage than good using PPV improperly? Yea! But all you have to do is go out and get the proper training and TRAIN with it. Is a department wrong for not using PPV on certain fires…No! But don’t shoot down other departments tactics because some big city doesn’t do it or some other department burnt a house down because it was improperly applied.

    I do not use PPV on all fires, the situation will dictate if it is plausible or not, all you have to do as an officer is make the right decision on tactics and strategies and apply the best plan of attack.

    Do what ever it takes to have a successful outcome to the situation.

    Study fire effects on Balloon construction, and the hidden dangers involved. You’ll find the proper way of venting this type of construction and also how PPV can impact (Pros/Cons) the outcome of the fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    Or even better, just get in there and put water on the fire and quit goofing off with fans.
    Now that's one hell-ov-uh idea Chicago. Ahhhhhhhhh da basics

    Stay Safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    HOW DO YOU CHANGE THE MENTALITY OF THESE PEOPLE ESPECCIALLY WHEN THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE LEADERS. FF'S THAT STARTED ON THIS DEPT. WITHIN THE LAST 7 YEARS UNDERSTAND PPV AND HAVE HAD TRIANING ON IT , FOR SOME REASON AFTER THAT PERIOD, THERE IS A HUGE TRAINING GAP. THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO THE SO -CALLED YOUNG GUYS WHO DO NOT HAVE THE EXP.. AGAIN THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT
    Is this an honnest tactics vs situation thread? Or are you guys just trying to find a way to bust your Lt's balls on a specific subject? Sounds like your seeking ammo to compensate for experience... I'm sorry if this is not the case, just the feeling I got from reading your comment...

    I have to agree with Bonnes; "nerver" is a very powerfull word, as "always" is also, to be used in the firehouse... But I can live with the word "size-up" anytime!!!

    Regards,

    Sly

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    Or even better, just get in there and put water on the fire and quit goofing off with fans and breaking windows. Talk about an overused, unneeded tactic. There is absolutely no reason that you need to use a PPV fan at a house fire. Period.

    Finally someone said it.

    Its a fire, there is going to be heat and smoke, just get in there with a line and knock it down!

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    I find it amazing that people think ventilation is a waste of resources.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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