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  1. #1
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    Default Saberjet Nozzles-smoothbore Vs Fog

    Our Dept Is A Firm Beleiver In The Traditional Fog Comb. Nozzle. A Neighboring Dept. Has The Saberjets, New Style With Single Shutoff. I Would Like To See Our Dept. Purchase A Couple However It Is A Tough Sell To The Higher Powers. I Have Used The S-jet A Couple Of Times And It Seems Like A Great Nozzle, And Gives You Options If Need Be. Looking For Some Input On This Subject, If Anyone Is Using Them. I Know A Lot Of People Like A Smooth Bore. I Have Never Been Able To Use One In An Interior Attack. I Know This Is Probably The Age Old Question. Less Pressure Vs. Flow. Are They A Worthwhile Investment?


  2. #2
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    We used them a few times in drills but found too many people having issues shutting them down. To shut the smootbore, you use the bale. To shut the fog, you twist the tip. I've heard they have come out with a new one that somehow does it all with the bale? We also found it did not work well as a smoothbore and even less effective as a fog. We ended up going with low flow break apart nozzles. Guys can use the adjustable tip and get 175gpm at 75psi and if they want, they can remove the tip and use the smoothbore that's left over and flow around 190gpm at that 75. Pump operator never knows the difference, nozzle reaction is not too much different, flow of water is good. It's real simple.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #3
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    The question you have to answer is, are our guys willing to learn how to use nozzles effectively? If they are not willing to train and understand how the nozzles work, throw in the towel and stick with what you have. Learn form our experience, if your dept sounds like mine, don't waste your time.

    We have the new style Sabrejets.
    Open the bale all the way=smoothbore, 180gpm @ 50psi
    Open it halfway=adjustable fog, 135gpm @ 100psi
    We wanted regular smoothbores, we got some of those and the rest Sabrejets. We had never used smoothbore nozzles before, so those of us who made the proposal wanted to make things simple. The Chief wanted the option to hydraulically ventilate, so he insisted on the SJ.
    Talk about controversy. Some love them, most hate them. We now have 3 different styles of nozzles, all on different length lines.
    1 3/4 150' preconnect=15/16 SB
    1 3/4 200' preconnect=Akromatic adjustable gallonage automatic-our old nozzles
    Bundles of 150' and 100' of 1 3/4 off a wyed 2 1/2 bed=Sabrejets
    2 1/2 bed=1 1/4 SB

    The problem isn't the nozzles, it's training and education. The SJs work well, you just have to have a thorough understanding of how they work. Most of the guys here won't take the time. Their understanding is limited to:
    "The pressure is too low, the lines kink all the time"
    "The old nozzles always put the fire out"
    "Smoothbores suck"
    I have tried to explain a million times that running a 1 3/4 200' line with an automatic nozzle at 120psi engine pressure is not flowing enough water. Those lines kink too, reducing flow even more, but noone ever notices because the automatic nozzle adjusts the stream. I prefer to know if my flow has been cut down, and the smoothbores do that. Most of the guys are happy to pull 1 3/4 around to flow 100 gpm, because it's easy to handle the automatic nozzle at that low nozzle pressure.

    Somehow we manage to put our occasional fires out, but we could definitely do things better. I'll throw you some examples, just nod if they apply to your dept.

    We have lost the ability to stretch hose and manipulate nozzles correctly, you should see all these guys standing in the parking lot, holding pistolgrips in their armpit, with the bale halfway open, complaining about the hose kinking right behind them Truck guys walk past kinks, engine guys make sharp turns dropping the line, noone pulls hose, except maybe the engine officer-3 man engine co. Every engine pulls it's own line, regardless of if the other lines have gotten to the fire. Pump operators don't know which nozzle is on what line-because some crews switch them around. We commonly run different lengths of lines, with different nozzles, off a wye. All the lines come off the first engine, overloading the pump operator and setting the stage for disaster if there is a problem.

    The smoothbore nozzles helped to bring these problems to light. The guys answer to fixing the problem is get rid of the smoothbores. Can't be wasting valuable recliner time pushing football stats out of my brain to fit the nozzle info in. If this sounds like your dept, save yourself the anguish and stick with what you've got.

  4. #4
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    gunnyv, thanks for bringing back my nightmares! I remember when "we" were there. I sleep better now.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Are All Dept Have The Same Problems Amazing :d

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    Thumbs down Nope

    Our department evaluated the SJ and several different makes and models when updating our highrise packs. It was the opinion of all members that tried the SJ that this was a dangerous design that was going to get someone injured. With 2 different shutoffs on the nozzle it is possible that in an emergency situation all water flow could be lost. I do not care how much training you have, a fireifghter will resort to what they have been accustomed to for their entire career. They only way that a SJ would be good for a department is to do a complete change out of nozzles (expensive). Then you have to look at the mutual aid aspect of this nozzle. If a department responds to your jurisdiction and deploys a line from your engine and is not familiar with this nozzle what will the outcome be?

    This is just my opinion on this style nozzle. BTW we did not purchase the SJ for the highrise packs.
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  7. #7
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    My new department has Akron Saberjets on all their highrise packs and on their preconnects, and since we had some downtime, the Lt. said i could take one off and use it so i could get used to it.

    my opinion? it's a pain in the ***** to use. you turn the smoothbore on by pulling the handle, and you turn on the fog portion by turning the front of the nozzle (I'm not entirely sure what that part is called). and you need to close them both individually. it's a pain. after about 40 minutes of using the nozzle, and spraying myself at least twice while trying to close the damn fog portion, I have come to the following conclusions:

    1) If I am ever in a fire and using this nozzle, i'll only be using the smoothbore, as the fog is too much of a pain to use
    2) I can very easily see someone new going into a fire and using the narrow fog and the smoothbore thinking they have the best of both worlds
    3) having one control to start the water and stop the water would make this a much more useful tool
    4) It's like a combitool, you get the usefulness of both a fog and smooothbore, but you also get several severe limitations because it's not 100% fog or smoothbore

    btw, if you do a search, you will find a ton of info on this topic.
    Last edited by DrParasite; 12-05-2005 at 04:13 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Alot of you are wrong in simply dismissing the validity of the Saberjet since you've only tried one model. The dual shutoff model does suck, I agree. The single shutoff model is far superior IMO. The single shutoff model has only a traditional bale control. opening the nozzle from nothing to halfway provides you a variable fog flow. Opening the bale past halfway provides a smoothbore stream only. With this model theres no possibility of doing something idiotic like running a full fog with interlaced smoothbore stream.

    Soneone mentioned before that the stream of a Saberjet is poor when in the sooth bore mode. I find it interesting, since by design, the Saberjet has one of the longest smooth bore waterways of the discharge diameter of any nozzle on the market. A typical akron plain smooth bore tip actually has a crappier stream.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv
    The problem isn't the nozzles, it's training and education. The SJs work well, you just have to have a thorough understanding of how they work. Most of the guys here won't take the time. Their understanding is limited to:
    "The pressure is too low, the lines kink all the time"
    "The old nozzles always put the fire out"
    "Smoothbores suck"
    I have tried to explain a million times that running a 1 3/4 200' line with an automatic nozzle at 120psi engine pressure is not flowing enough water. Those lines kink too, reducing flow even more, but noone ever notices because the automatic nozzle adjusts the stream. I prefer to know if my flow has been cut down, and the smoothbores do that. Most of the guys are happy to pull 1 3/4 around to flow 100 gpm, because it's easy to handle the automatic nozzle at that low nozzle pressure.

    Somehow we manage to put our occasional fires out, but we could definitely do things better. I'll throw you some examples, just nod if they apply to your dept.

    We have lost the ability to stretch hose and manipulate nozzles correctly, you should see all these guys standing in the parking lot, holding pistolgrips in their armpit, with the bale halfway open, complaining about the hose kinking right behind them Truck guys walk past kinks, engine guys make sharp turns dropping the line, noone pulls hose, except maybe the engine officer-3 man engine co. Every engine pulls it's own line, regardless of if the other lines have gotten to the fire. Pump operators don't know which nozzle is on what line-because some crews switch them around. We commonly run different lengths of lines, with different nozzles, off a wye. All the lines come off the first engine, overloading the pump operator and setting the stage for disaster if there is a problem.

    The smoothbore nozzles helped to bring these problems to light. The guys answer to fixing the problem is get rid of the smoothbores. Can't be wasting valuable recliner time pushing football stats out of my brain to fit the nozzle info in. If this sounds like your dept, save yourself the anguish and stick with what you've got.

    Well stated, and very true in many places!!

  10. #10
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    Your not going to use both at the same time so I would say look to something else. The nozzle reaction seems a bit heavier then other nozzles also.

    My place has an elkhart 15/16 sutoff with the med pressure chief 175 gpm at 75 psi on it. If you want the fog use it if you want the SB just spin off the fog nozzle. Much easier and an overall lighter nozzle.

  11. #11
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    The SJ is just another tool in the tool box. I have found that it takes some coordination between the ECC and the nozzle man. If you are throwing water through the smooth bore and then switch to the adj. fog, your flow may be poor.

    No mater what you use (smoothbore, constant gallonage, selectable gallonage, automatic, etc) know your flow. Test YOUR specific layouts. As we all know, all hose is not created equal. The FL in different brands of hose can be completely different. Get out and flow test your nozzles, lines, and preconnects (if you have them).

    Finally, buying a (combo) nozzle because you can use it for ventilation is a bit off. And we all know you can hydraulicly vent with a smooth bore (tip off and bail half open).

    And most importantly; No matter what nozzle you use, get good numbers. Flow plenty of water to get the job done. No one ever said it had to be a fair fight.

    Just my $.02

  12. #12
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    I would never use the dual shutoff model, and we wouldn't have gone along with it as a committee if that would have been the option. We wanted smoothbores and compromised on the single shutoff SJs to get them in the door. Also, we had a couple of break-apart nozzles before. They presented the same problems as the SJ, with the add'l hazard of dual shutoffs-the fog tip could be shut off by turning all the way to the right-and the possibility of losing the fog tip if it were removed. I agree that a SB will be somewhat effective for hydraulic ventilation, as abcdefg stated, but the Chief didn't believe it.

    The best use of the SJ is to understand that it is a smoothbore attack nozzle that can be switched to a fog pattern for ventilation after the fire is out and flow is no longer a priority.

  13. #13
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    switched to a fog pattern for ventilation after the fire is out
    but to get to that smoothbore, you have to open the fog first? or do you just crank it open/shut and hope the water hammer is minor?

    PS - our breakapart adjustable fog nozzles don't shutoff when twisted all the way, that is an option we did not want. And yes, you could lose the tip when removed, but then what - your stuck with a smoothbore in a fire
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  14. #14
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    but to get to that smoothbore, you have to open the fog first? or do you just crank it open/shut and hope the water hammer is minor?
    If the fog head is turned all to the right, it is almost a straight stream, so it really doesn't matter. Same as with any fog nozzle. If you're flowing it at SB pressures, you're not going to flow much water in the fog position. We still teach guys to check their pattern before they go in anyway.

  15. #15
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    I dont understand all the fuss with these specialty nozzles. They way I see it....why do you want to use a heavy nozzle....just b/c you have an opion of fog or straight.....I have been using Akron Smoothbores for some time now....with both the City and the Vollies.....it gives me what I need....at half the weight and fatiuge. At work, my company and the surrounding ones, do the same....and we keep the Akron Assualt, FT-2 and FT-1s for the nussance fires only......

    We drill a-lot...and I ask a billion questions at work.....And after discussing the whole Fog/Straight topic (yeah, they playfully call me buff...but they are happy to answer anyway) with the senior men....guys with 25-30 years on....who have seen some hard fire duty....they all swear by Smoothbores....usually its.."listen kid...we've been using these things for over 100 years....and the city ain't burned down yet.....there's no need to reinvent the wheel".....

    Rant off.....

    I have tested the Saber Jet when it first came out....didn't like it....way tooooo many moving parts....I remember I fell over advancing down a hallway....and the thing opened up on me.....the barrel twisted and slung water everywere...for which I wasn't ready for.....In the real deal....that could have been a disaster......Everyone that used it when we tested it.....didn't like it......nice concept though.....just not for us.

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    I Have Used The Dual Shutoff S/j And I Agree It Is A Pain In The A**. Our Dept Has One Stackable Smoothbore And It Is Such Big Clunky Piece Of Crap That It Never Gets Used. The S/j Were Trying For It To Become A Transition Nozzle For People To See That Smoothbore Definately Has Its Advantages. The Chief Does Not Like The Idea Of Not Have A For Pattern In Case The Pucker Factor Happens And Also Ventilation Reasons.

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    I Have Used The Dual Shutoff S/j And I Agree It Is A Pain In The A**. Our Dept Has One Stackable Smoothbore And It Is Such Big Clunky Piece Of Crap That It Never Gets Used. The S/j Wtih The Single Shutoff ,were Trying To Make It A Transition Nozzle For People To See That Smoothbore Definately Has Its Advantages. The Chief Does Not Like The Idea Of Not Have A For Pattern In Case The Pucker Factor Happens And Also Ventilation Reasons. I Also Beleive When Entering A Structure With A Fog Nozzle To Set It To Striaght Stream And Then Make Adjustments As Needed Or Conditions Change. For Me It Is Easier To Do It That Way To Get The Right Pattern.


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  18. #18
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    IThe Chief Does Not Like The Idea Of Not Have A For Pattern In Case The Pucker Factor Happens And Also Ventilation Reasons. I Also Beleive When Entering A Structure With A Fog Nozzle To Set It To Striaght Stream And Then Make Adjustments As Needed Or Conditions Change. For Me It Is Easier To Do It That Way To Get The Right Pattern.


    Jercvfd
    Volunteer F.f.
    What pucker factor? You mean when it rolls over your head.....I'll take a Smoothbore for that anyday! Just direct it over your head and wip it side to side.....problem solved....and after...all you have to do is lower it back in front of you and press on, no need to adjust anything. And as far as ventilation goes.....the fire is out....who cares.....the smoothbores will move air too.....we do it all the time.....I haven't had a problem yet.

    Pick up anything writen or made by the Late Andy Fredricks and currently, Ron Moore. They actually tested all the nozzles we speak of.....I think you and your Chief will change thier minds.

    Good Luck,,,stay low,,,,stay safe.

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    Our Minds Have Been Made Up For A Long Time, We Are Just Trying To Convince The Chief And A Few Other Guys Of It.by The Way, Pucker Factor .IT is Not My Personal Choice Of Words, Taken Out Of Context.

  20. #20
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    by The Way, Pucker Factor .IT is Not My Personal Choice Of Words, Taken Out Of Context.

    I knew what you ment...LOL.....

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