I S O what really going on?

[firefighter7160]

There are many dept's around my area spending lots of money to lower there I S O rate. But then there are others that just dont care, and are happy with there 9 or 8. We all know that the lower I S O you have the more money your home owners save. There are some fire dept's around here that want to lower there rate, but just dont have the money. So whats your your I S O and is your dept. trying to lower it.




PINE BLUFF F D (CLASS 3) HARDIN V F D (CLASS 4) ARKANSAS

[Diane E]

If I remember correctly from my days in the insurance biz -- two of the main determining factors are hydrants (how many and their spacing) and the number of fire apparatus...Basically, how quick can water get to the fire.

ISO Ratings's determine what everyone pays for insurance (as mentioned), so if you care about the people in your fire district, you should aim for a lower ISO.

[lvwrench]

Class 1 and just trying to keep it. ISO looks at everything including stuff we never even use just so long as we have it.

[waterboy1]

We are currently a class 6 and were going to try to get it reduced to a 4 or 5. After we talked to 2 different insurance co's we stopped. If we were to go to a 5 no change, if we went to a 4, our rates would go up. They told us that the class # are a property protection class and not a fire protection class. They told us that generally the lower the class, the larger the city, and higher crime. This was about a year ago.

[ADSNWFLD]

You insurance benifit for ISO ratings under 3 are non existant. Their is a difference in rates but it is in the higher numbers. Our department is a 3 and we were trying to improve to a 2 or 1. When I asked the local Farmer's agent he said that for residential (his specialty) their would be no change.
Commercial and industrial would see small cuts in rate.

I know what helped me, when I built new I installed a sprinkler system. It saved me over $500 a year on a $550,000.00 home.

[BrianHFDLT]

We currenlty are a 4. Last year we had an ISO adjuster come through and do an extensive look at our Department, we were in great shape, they held us on getting to 3 because of some issues they had when they looked into our counties 911 communication center, so we cant go any farther until the county steps up.

Some Departments will never be able to get away from being 8 or 9, Water supply is the big draw back, without a hydrant district, there is no hope.

[Bones42]

NJ takes ISO ratings and breaks them into 3 categories, 1-4, 5-8, 9+. Unless you are changing categories, it does not make any difference in NJ. ISO looks at many areas, broken basically into a few main sections.

Water system) including # of hydrants, spacing, their actual flows, testing on them

Communications) # of lines available for dispatcher to receive calls, # of dispatchers on duty, backup dispatching systems, whether the fire company non-emergency phone number is listed in phone books

Apparatus and equipment) what you got, what they think you need, what equipment you have and whether it's testing is current and ongoing

Personnel) available, average # of responders, training, sop's

The biggest thing they look for and harp on is DOCUMENTATION. If you don't have it in writing in your records, you don't have it. Not only current testing records, but the last 3 times so they can check intervals. Training - not only how many hours, but what it was on and who took it.

[Ledebuhr1]

One thing I dont understand is why ISO doesn't count response time. I believe Fallon NV has a ISO 3 in an un-hydranted areas, and Class 1 in hydrant areas. They do have tankers to shuttle, but what about when manpower is short.
A department can have lots of apparatus and even hydrants, but if all the voulenteers are at work in other citys it doesent matter.

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

They do not just in the way that we'd normally think about it, it's in the staffing & water supply sections. There's really no way to take response times because you never know where the first truck is coming from. It could be out on another call clear across district, on M/A.

Since some say that the fire is won and lost (in terms of damage) with the first line off the truck, they take the ability to flow 250gpm within 4 minutes of arrival as one response time factor, as well as the ability to keep it flowing for a long time. Also under staffing, if your people are paid and in house, then they count as 1 FF. Volunteers coming from home, 1/3rd of a FF. Officers with emergency vehicles, a radio, and PPE in the vehicle 1/2 a FF. Volunteers that stay in the station count as 1 also.

Auto M/A agreements are also taken into consideration for equipment, manpower, and trucks if you don't have enough on your own.

[firefighter7160]

you dont need hydrants to get a lower rate. Rural dept's. outside of a hydrant area have 6,5 and 4. My vol. dept. is going all 4 in city and rual non-hydrant area's.

[Dave1983]

Im not so sure about that. We are a 3 within a few points of a 2. We cant get any lower as the county water department wont let us test hydrants, and whatever they use for records doesnt satisfy ISO. So, we cant get full points for the water system, even though we are fully hydranted, 500' maximum between hydrants and excellent system flow/pressure.

I forgot to mention, the county also wont color code (by gpm) the hydrants, so we loose points for that as well.

[Bones42]

If you can physically demonstrate, (not on paper, but actually doing it for the ISO inspector) that you can move an adequate flow of water for an extended period of time in an allowable amount of time to get it setup, you can get a better rating. But be prepared to actually show it. And they may make you show it 3 times and it only takes 1 time of not doing it to erase all the good tries.

[Ledebuhr1]

BC79er, Its not hard to flow 250gpm with in 4 minutes of arriaval. What matters is how long did it take them to get there from when the tones are set. You can show up with 2000gal and CAFS, but if is been 7-8 minutes sence the tones, it will be really involved. After a certian point how much water you have doesent matter, if its fully involved, you could have 1000gal or 6000gal and its still a total loss.

Bones42, When a department has to demonstrate this, does ISO tell them when they are going to have the "test"? Any Volenteer department can do a test like that on a Saturday afternoon but how about a Tuesday morning when manpower is short?

[BC79er_OLDDELETE]

Quite true in the "real world" but that's the way it's put according to them. Because if you bring that 2000 gallons and CAFS, it will be out a whole lot quicker if you get that on the fire than only 125gpm. They're also looking at collateral damage costs if it does become fully involved prior to arrival. ISO is looking at it from an insurance claim cost point of view, not a FFing point of view. With how fast fire grows in newer houses, the involved structure is usually a large loss due to smoke and water damage. But it's even more expensive when the ones next door get damaged, so if you can get that kind of flow quickly enough, you can keep the exposures from being added to the list.

All departments are expected to demonstrate flows during an audit. And like Bones said, they're all about paperwork going back 3 years. Nothing has to be fancy it just has to be done. One dept near me used black Sharpie markers to write numbers on their hydrants because they weren't sure about a permanent solution. It counted the same as having the reflexite labels. Done is done in their book.

[Bones42]

Bones42, When a department has to demonstrate this, does ISO tell them when they are going to have the "test"? Any Volenteer department can do a test like that on a Saturday afternoon but how about a Tuesday morning when manpower is short?

No, it's not a surprise, it's during the audit. And ISO will even tell you how much gpm you need to move, how quick to get it going, and how long you need to sustain it. And if it involves a tanker/tender shuttle, you will actually have to demonstrate it and include mutual aid if they are part of your plan. Funny thing is, I'd bet most departments just take what ISO gives them and don't go through the effort of refuting it by demonstration.

PS - No one ever claimed ISO requirements made any sense. Remember, these are the people that accept a Thermal Imaging Camera as equivalent equipment to a cutting torch.

[firefighter7160]

BC79er, Its not hard to flow 250gpm with in 4 minutes of arriaval. What matters is how long did it take them to get there from when the tones are set. You can show up with 2000gal and CAFS, but if is been 7-8 minutes sence the tones, it will be really involved. After a certian point how much water you have doesent matter, if its fully involved, you could have 1000gal or 6000gal and its still a total loss.

Bones42, When a department has to demonstrate this, does ISO tell them when they are going to have the "test"? Any Volenteer department can do a test like that on a Saturday afternoon but how about a Tuesday morning when manpower is short?

all u have to do is move the water and make the paperwork like good. thats it. thats all we did and they lowered are rate...

[lexfd5]

Spoke with my agent who stated that the company she represents no longer follows ISO but rather total dollar fire loss in your zip code. Her company determined that this was a better predicition of future losses in your area.

[firefighter7160]

so your telling me that if your dept. go's 6 years with only losing less then $150,000 a year, and no deaths. your dept. gets a good rate. So what happens on that 7th year when 5 people die in a hotel and loss $2,000,000 now your a bad dept. that just dont make any sense.

[Ledebuhr1]

So I get the impression that ISO is less "real world" and more "look good on paper". So does this mean that there are a lot of departments that have gotten a rating that they really shouldent have? Like maybe they can flow 250gpm for 3hrs when the ISO people are there. But on a Wednesday afternoon they dont have the manpower to shuttle, so the house burns down.

[Ledebuhr1]

A better indication of how good a fire department is would be to look at all fires. then see how many were total losses and how many had just small damage. If most of the fires have just small damage, meaning they get there quick and have a quick knock down, it is a good deparment. If they have a lot of total losses, then the insurance should be much higher in that area.
How much a hydrant can flow or what type of communication system your county has is not as important as putting the wet stuff on the red stuff and quickly.