1. #1
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    Angry I need some advice

    Well little back ground, i have served for 9 years on this Vol. Dept. Well while i was activated they appointed a new chief. I served two years in Iraq, and came back and my training officer position had been giving to somone else. That's all fine and dandy, but they wouldn't give me an equal position like they are supposed to by law. Well they were electing a new capt, for which only two of us were qualified, and the other guy had failed as the new training officer. Well the chief said without any discussion that the other guy had got the job. Now to me if somone jacks up as a training officer wouldn't they notice that. I mean this guy didn't even schedule one training meeting, and he continually says that he lays in bed a listens to us scream for man power. I don't know what i can do legally or how to go about it. But i turned in my pager and radio after that meeting, and now i'm getting the fireman itch, i miss it so much, but i just want to know if there is anything i can do???

    Zac

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    Sorry to hear that you are going through this mess. I don't think this law(USERA) applies to Volunteer Departments.

    I was with a dept. for 12 years and after being deployed for one year (stateside), I came back to have the chief tell me that we are no longer going to strive to be a professional fire department. He said that we need to go back to doing "things" like a "volunteer" fire department.

    Well....to make a long story short, I finally turned in my gear. Looking back, I should have done more to change the chiefs mind, but I had put alot of work into getting the department where it was and then being gone away from my family for a year, I no fight left in me.

    I too got the itch. And I am happy to say that after being off the department for a year, I have joined a new department just south of the old one. They were kind enough to let me join even though I was 2 miles outside their territory.

    I know where you are coming from. But I really don't know what to tell you. Maybe some day they will get a new chief and things will be different. Maybe if you remain close to at least some of the members (like I have), you will be able to decide when it is time to jump back in.

    Again, I am really sorry to hear you going through this. Take care and stay safe.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    Unhappy Acitve Duty

    Honestly i think there is something the JAG can do about this, but i'm not sure if i want to pursue it that far, also i didn't add that my Chief is also in the Guard with me. I would have thought that he would understand the situation. But he's also deployed 1 in 22 years, i've been in the guard for almost 6 years now, and i've been deployed almost 5 1/2 years. But, i just don't want to see some of the other young pups get into that grove as to what they are doing. That new Capt. has made SEVERAL big mistakes since i left. Also one week before he got elected, he got arrested for 3 counts of poachin. See i have no record and i have never been introuble, and they always called me when things needed to get done, i just don't understand this whole ordeal. I want to get my spot back, but then again i don't want to waste anymore time. I'm starting EMT Class in January, and FFI&II ASAP after that. As far as training goes, i held an EMT while i was deployed but lost do, to not being able to take my CEU's cause i was gone. Checked on that and state said nope, take the class again. So basically i have no CERT's anymore, about 4K down the drain i paid out of my own pocket.
    Well thanks for the advice, but i still think there is something that i can do.

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    and FFI
    Personal comment here, but if you have yet to get FF1, you have no business being an officer of any type. A fire department that elects officers without training is a disaster waiting to happen.

    Just my opinion.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones,

    I hate to tell you, but I have seen plenty of "Chiefs" out there that don't have FFI. This is a scary thought. Some volunteer firefighters have the belief that as long as they are doing the best that they can do, they are doing a good job. They don't worry about NFPA codes or keeping up with current training standards. They say that they are "Just Volunteers" ( I hate that saying). I think that this may be the reason that so many volunteer departments get a bad rep.

    It is hard for volunteers to stay up with the standards. But that doesn't mean we can't try.

    Anyway....it is good that FireMav is going for training, but in this department, I don't see it doing any good.

    I agree with you Bones....electing officers is a bad idea. But I guess when "no one" has any training, how else are you suppose to pick your leaders?????

    (sometimes I tend to ramble....just tell me to sit down and shut up). Take care and stay safe!
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    Thumbs up

    I went through a similar problem, Yes even though you are considered a volunteer you are still a employee of your Town, City, Village. All federal and state laws do apply. For example you get hurt firefighting you still get workman's Comp. So yes because you were serving oversea's you are entitled to everything back just the way you were before you left. Technically if you were chief or asst. Chief they have to give you the spot back. But remember they can find any reason to throw your butt out of there if they didn't like you. I just like to say thank you for serving for our country it means alot to me!! Good Luck with this problem.

    P/S I was Lieutenant for a while, I'd rather be a black helmet less worries. You might want to also think about that.

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    Talking Advice for Volunteer

    Thanks for the appreciation for serving my country, these days not to many people are keen to the idea of putting their own *** on the line, so help somone else, i guess i have the public service thing in my blood, i'm in the military and a firefighter, and going to go to the Police Academy sometime here in the near future. I tried to contact my JAG officer but he said that he has a full time job to worry about, which kinda left me out in the blue. But that's okay on his part i have an appointment with a US congress man tonday at 1100hrs, to take care of this problem and a few others that need looked into. Thanks for reading my posts.

    Zac

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    Zac,
    First off thanks for serving our country. How ever being gone two years. Thatís along time to be away. I can see telling you that once you got back up to speed that you would be returned to your officer position. In two years they could of changed the layout of the trucks placement of equipment. How well was you able to keep on things? Training officer is a big duty. I can see why they held it back, however I hope they would of told you why and that you would be getting it back. How many of the guys do you know there? How many of them are new? Do you know what their current level of training is? I hope all works out for you just wanted to let you know how I seen it. I do not know if the higher ups explained why they held you back or not. I can understand your aggravation with the guy that is in there now. I know it is volunteer however if your guys are screaming for help and just lay in bed thatís bs. I wouldnít want that guy on my fd for anything. Good luck and be safe
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    Question While i was gone

    Well well i was gone i did keep up with everyone's training Via E-Mail, also they havn't changed the truck layout in 15 years. I have known most of the officers most of my life, a whole 24 years, but this guy has only been on since 2001, and completly screwed up training officer while i was gone, they asked me before i leave, who i wanted to take my place, he and i were good friends at the time. So i told the chief, that i wanted person A ( the new captain) to take my spot, when i returned nothing has changed we had one new guy, and he'd been on a few years ago, but had to quit do to a back injury. I don't know what i can , do and if i can do anything, it's just very frustrating to spend 9 years, just to see it go, to someone like that. Also, he hangs around a known drug dealer, and not finanially stable at all, can't pay any of his bills, and his girlfriend and him are on the verge of a few people calling child services, for child endangerment, and mal nutrition. It's very frustrating knowing that a person really lays in bed and listens to us scream for man power and starting calling 3-6 departments to get a decent crew together. I guess this forum is my way of letting go, or de stressing about the whole thing, all i do it think about fire, this and fire that. I miss running the calls and helping people, i miss the lifestyle. I plane miss it all. We all were a close nit group until this happened. Now, i've talked to a few of the younger people and they can't stand the fact, and don't see how he ever made any kinda officer or even on the department. Any adive at letting go, i'm trying to get on a paid department, but i have to wait to get my CERT's back, and that's going to take time. Anyone from Missouri around the KC area? know of a department beside KCFD that will hire and put through the acedemy, I'll pay for the classes, but i can't afford to quit my job just yet to go through it all at once. Thanks for your all's time reading this.

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    Zac
    Good luck brother. sorry to hear the bad news. Hope all works out glad you was able to keep up with everything. Sad that your efforts did not pay off.
    Training does not make perfect. Training makes permanent!

    IACOJ probie

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    Mav- Sorry to hear about your grief! I think If you as a soldier went to fight for our country, no matter how long you were gone, (Yea we would have a replacement until you got back ) You would have your position when you got back. Period end of statement! Don't through your pearls into swine my brother. Try to find someone to scratch the itch. Keep your eyes open and your head up !

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    FIREMAV

    I see two problems........one, you have a lack of training to be a Training Officer. I have found this through out the area that I live in. One dept that I am Deputy Chief, the chief just appointed a guy to Lt. and he has only been on the dept for almost a year. The second.......you are only 24 y/o. I was Deputy at 26, let me tell you that it is hard for someone on a dept that is older and possibly less experience, to listen to someone so young and take orders. Don't give up, that shows them you are weak. Stand tall as you did in the service. Work you way back up. Maybe people will see that you are talented and dedicated.

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMav
    Also, he hangs around a known drug dealer, and not finanially stable at all, can't pay any of his bills, and his girlfriend and him are on the verge of a few people calling child services, for child endangerment, and mal nutrition. It's very frustrating knowing that a person really lays in bed and listens to us scream for man power and starting calling 3-6 departments to get a decent crew together. I guess this forum is my way of letting go, or de stressing about the whole thing, all i do it think about fire, this and fire that.
    FireMav,
    Just a little advice. Take it or leave it. Be careful what you say especially in a public forum such as this one. What you see as a way to vent and destress is a way for those you are venting about to give you grief. You may think that no one from your department reads this forum but rest assured that word will get back to your former buddies that you are airing dirty laundry. An attack on one will be seen as an attack on all and you can quickly find yourself in some big trouble with those you once served alongside. Once you've attacked them here they will have no problem attacking you.
    If all you think about is fire this and fire that maybe it's good that you turned in your pager. It probably a good time to step back and redirect your energy elsewhere. Relax, find a hobby and spend time with your family. Take care of your Certifications and apply your enthusiasm to something that doesn't involve your having to associate with poaching parents who can't feed their kids or pay their bills.
    Nothing good will come out of posting here about the drug dealers your fellow volunteers hang out with. Take some time off and in a few months, or years, if you decide to go back and they havn't blackballed you at the Fire Department for slandering them on an internet forum, you can get your pager back and roll to as many calls as you can handle.
    Good Luck,
    Steve
    FF1/EMT-B
    formerly of the City of St Gabriel, La Fire Department
    and
    the East Iberville Volunteer Fire Department
    Steve
    EMT/Security Officer

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    Thumbs up Thanks

    This may not help your situation but it may boost self confidence which is a big nessictiy in firefighting...I personally just want to thank you for serving our country and i believe that veterans should be able to come home and replenish there place in the dept. Even thought thats not the way it works that is the right way to do it lol...Once again i just want to thank you for keeping us free...your a big inspiration to me...I am not old enough right now (14) but i plan on going into military services out of highschool...my father was a firefighter and in the army so i have learned to respect everything yall do for us...but good luck in to you in future days...
    Josh
    Pilot Knob FD jr/explorer

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMav
    i held an EMT while i was deployed but lost do, to not being able to take my CEU's cause i was gone. Checked on that and state said nope, take the class again.
    In the future, ask for an extension before the cert expires. They will give you the time you need.

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    FireMav:
    Thank you for your service to our country.
    Sorry you lost out on your volunteer fire department while you were away, but from the way you describe your officer selection process, you don't have any legal rights to that position anymore.
    You lost out when you turned in your gear. I realize that you may be suffering from fatigue, but if belonging to the department meant so much to you, you should have stayed on.
    When I was chief of department, I made the selection of the top officers very simple. You don't have to have FF II to be a lieutenant, but is highly recommended. But if you want the rank of captain, you have to be FF II. Same with chief and asst. chief.
    Yeah; we are a small volunteer fire department, but if the day should come that firefighters show no interest in training and certification of same, then we will combine with another department who most likely will have the same requirements as us.
    Promotion should factor in knowledge/skill for the rank. If not; it's just a popularity contest and everyone will lose; community included.
    One way or another, we will provide fire protection to our fire district. It's something I don't worry about.
    CR
    Last edited by ChiefReason; 01-28-2006 at 02:05 PM. Reason: spelling
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMav
    Well little back ground, i have served for 9 years on this Vol. Dept. Well while i was activated they appointed a new chief. I served two years in Iraq, and came back and my training officer position had been giving to somone else. That's all fine and dandy, but they wouldn't give me an equal position like they are supposed to by law. Well they were electing a new capt, for which only two of us were qualified, and the other guy had failed as the new training officer. Well the chief said without any discussion that the other guy had got the job. Now to me if somone jacks up as a training officer wouldn't they notice that. I mean this guy didn't even schedule one training meeting, and he continually says that he lays in bed a listens to us scream for man power. I don't know what i can do legally or how to go about it. But i turned in my pager and radio after that meeting, and now i'm getting the fireman itch, i miss it so much, but i just want to know if there is anything i can do???

    Zac
    I don't know how Missouri laws are compared to Ohio laws, and I thank your for your service, but....

    1. if this is an all unpaid volunteer department, and you had no payment for your position as training officer, them they might not legally have to hold that exact postion

    2. To quote Joe Dirt, some times you got to keep on keepin on. As an officer or a chief, I would have a hard time re-appointing someone who turned in their stuff and left. It shows that you might not have the patience for the long haul.

    3. You may think that you are anonymous on the world wide web, but eventually someone from your fd, or ex fd will eventually come across this on the web and forward it. Bet on it. Commenting (negatively) on the person who has your old position on the www won't endear you to too many people. In the military, didn't you hear "loose lips sink ships"?

    4. Refer back to #2. The chief might have been testing you. People can argue back and forth about the merits of this, but it happens. This happens all over, not just in the fire service. The boss maybe wanted to see how you might handle some adversity. Maybe he isn't sold on this new training officer, but wanted to see if you would "keep on keepin on", keep contributing, stay positive, and not have others take sides. If this was a test on his part, how do you think you did by quitting?

    5. IMO, as long as the operation is safe, people are showing up for calls, no one is being harrassed, intimidated, etc then "what goes on in vegas stays in vegas". There being at least two sides to any fire service story, you may think you have a right to your old position, but the chief should have the right to have people he thinks are qualified, or thinks he can work with. Going outside the department, getting a lawyer or elected official to intercede may just be a boatload of bad karma.

    My advise would be to rejoin, and show your stuff by showing a good attitude, and to keep educating yourself. As VollieForLife would say, wear out that IFSTA book.

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    First, I agree with this:
    Personal comment here, but if you have yet to get FF1, you have no business being an officer of any type. A fire department that elects officers without training is a disaster waiting to happen.

    Sorry, but in my Dept. you get the training or you don't play.


    I think is speaks volumes that your first inclination was to quit.

    As far as your "position", check your Dept. By-Laws.
    Any Dept. who does not have elections, appointments, qualifications, and the duties of each position outlined in their By-Laws is just begging for trouble.

    How can you be so sure that this guy is "making big mistakes"??? If you're not Certified then you haven't been trained to know these things.

    Why did you not ask for NREMT to put you on inactive status??? Then with a refresher you're good to go again.

    Poaching is not really a crime. It's a "violation of the rules". It could entail "night hunting" or just be as simple as hunting in an area where he shouldn't have been. I've even seen guys TICKETED for poaching because they shot a deer, at night, which was badly wounded by a MVC.
    It's not like DUI, Arson, Rape, Murder, Etc...

    Another thing,
    I'm glad you got the chance to go play in the sandbox. I know how much the extra pay means. But the guys/gals who were here defending their Community (from the real threats - Fire, Medical problems, disasters) while you were gone might see your absence for what it was - "a man short at every call".
    They're volunteers just like you. Perhaps dedication and actually being there meant something to them.

    Sorry, again, but if you weren't selected/voted in by the members of a non-profit Incorporated Volunteer Fire Department, JAG won't be able to help you any more than if you lost the election for County Supervisor.
    That's what REAL democracy means, the PEOPLE get to choose. Not the Govt.
    Those guys in the FD OWE you nothing, NADA.
    You have to EARN respect and trust. And you don't earn it by pouting and abandoning your "brothers" (again) just because you didn't get your way.

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    Wasn't that a little harsh considering he was deployed in Iraq. You don't have to believe in the war but you do have to believe in the men and women who serve.

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    Not really.
    I can remember not too long ago when the Military was a place for boys to become MEN.
    Men don't pout and run away from adversity. It's that simple.

    The "abandoned" reference was to the perceptions of the FD members. Not my opinion.

    I do support our troops, and that can't be questioned. However, the idea that military service somehow entitles one to immediate preferential treatment in all aspects of life should be squelched with vigor.

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    I agree that they shouldn't receive special treatment but should be allowed to step in where they left off. Its that way in the working world, so why shouldn't the VFD's extend the same courtesy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarionMedic
    Not really.
    I can remember not too long ago when the Military was a place for boys to become MEN.
    Men don't pout and run away from adversity. It's that simple.

    The "abandoned" reference was to the perceptions of the FD members. Not my opinion.

    I do support our troops, and that can't be questioned. However, the idea that military service somehow entitles one to immediate preferential treatment in all aspects of life should be squelched with vigor.
    I will go only as far to agree with you to the point of preferential treatment. Even though, I don't believe being allowed to pick up where life left off before military service as being defined as "preferential treatment."

    FireMav: I canít spare you 100%. Iím not saying that all (if any) of your comments about the current officer are called for. Personally, I wouldnít be spreading that stuff online. However, if they are true, that is most definitely a good reason to cut ties with that department, before you get caught up in/witness some serious lawsuits or investigations down the road (The part about the officer lying in bed while others are screaming for manpower, is alarming). If your (former) departmentís officers are elected, then you should have stuck it out until the next election (Iím not really clear as to how the process works with your department). If the rest of the guys there thought that the current training officer is as worthless as you make him out to be, then you should have easily gotten your position back through the votes alone. If they really love the way he screwed things up as you describe, then it might be time for you to let go altogether. If the new training demands are all that is keeping you out of that position, then focus on that for a while. I feel that there are a lot of gaps in the situation as youíve explained it. If you want good advice, just calm down, and put all the pieces together. It sounds like you are coming here for advice a bit late, because regrettably, you did not know about other things like Cert. extensions. But, you seem to be very enthusiastic about firefighting, and thatís good enough for me. Good luck.



    Thanks for serving.
    Last edited by GodSendRain; 02-01-2006 at 11:10 PM.
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    In a way, I agree with what everyone has had to say. I think it does suck that your position had been changed while you were overseas fighting for us, and we all have to respect that. On the other hand, while you were overseas fighting for us, the others at your department had battles of their own to deal with, and without you. 2 years is a long time to go without a training officer. I dont know what kind of training your department did, but it shouldn't have been put on hold for 2 years. With that in mind, it takes a long time to have someone trained to fill this position. If i have a training officer trying to teach me something, i'm gonna put my life on the line knowing and trusting that he knows what he is talking about, and i would have difficult time trusting my life on a officer that has been absent for 2 years.

    Just like your EMT status, it wasnt refreshed, therefore it wasnt renewed. If i was on your department with you I would have strongly encouraged you to stick around, keep working at it and regain all that skill and knowledge, not just hang up the pager and call it quits.

    Take no offense, but continued practice and training is for the best of all members in any dept. If indeed you were the man for that position on the department, you should have stuck around and proven it.

    Quit holding a grudge, go back to the department and get busy showing them you are the man for position. I'd also delete your post with the negative comments.

    1. Quit typing about it here
    2. Get back on the dept.
    3. Work to be the best, and you will be.
    4. have moderator close and delete this post

    once again, take no offense.

    good luck to you

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    Well, thanks for all the advice and things. Next question, how would i go back and ask for my job back, i'm currently re qualified as a EMT-B, and almost done with Firefighter 1 and 2. Soi what would i say, i'm not very good at this kinda thing, since i thought i was in the right, and apperently i was not. I have never ran out on anybody in reference to MarionMedic. The military taught me that. I felt that i was screwed royaly so i acted accordingly. Whether or not it was right, there is no right and wrong way for somone to feel. There is alot of background drama invovled in this. Me Personally i don't like drama and i stay away from it, but this time it was i guess my turn to enter into the drama. Thanks to all those that support our troops, and to all those that serve here stateside.

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    I do not know what to say, on trying to get back on, i'm working on going to another department towards KCMO, that's alot bigger and more calls. Plus there is paid members on there and that's what i want. Like i said i'm almost done with regaining all my CERT's, but unfortunatly that takes time.
    In regards to whether a person in the military get's preferencial treatment when they get back. The only time they get preferencial treatment is when they are considered a Veteran. Now to do that you have to Directly invovled in combat , or spend 180 days supporting in a Combat zone. Fortunatly i have both, but that only get's me 5 points on some jobs. I don't know how other departments do it, but KCMO, says right in the application, Veterans Preference is not accepted. The only thing that helps some Military memebers out is the being able to get your job back. But that does not say they can't fire you for being 5 minutes late,( which unfortunatly happened) so just cause most people think that we get a better life, that's very untrue, infact we have to put everything in our life on hold for how ever long we are gone, and then try to get things straight when we get back. I'm not bitching about all this, i'm just explaining about it to some of the members that are unclear about what Veteran's Preference is.

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