1. #1
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    Talking Water Application

    Check out this video!

    What caused the sudden increase in flame production in the overhead?

    I have some ideas, but I would like to hear more.

    http://www.zippyvideos.com/466594719.../directattack/
    Last edited by TPLUMB; 12-17-2005 at 12:07 AM. Reason: Adding video link

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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    Check out this video!

    What caused the sudden increase in flame production in the overhead?

    I have some ideas, but I would like to hear more.
    What video?!




    Kevin
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    Default Sorry False alarm

    I'll work on getting the video posted. It's just a little big for the requirements. Stand By

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    Still standing and my legs are getting a little tired Any luck yet? If not, just post the link, if possible.
    K-9 hunt, the ultimate challange.
    EVERYONE GOES HOME
    IACOJ

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    As Ward Burton says,"Our operators are standing.Bye!"

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    "Houston, we have a problem."

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    Default To heck with this

    Im sitting down!

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    We don't even have elevator music to listen to.

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    Default I need HELP!

    Does anyone have a website I can post this video on. Or would someone like me to send them a copy of this video and see if they can get it posted on here?

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    Default Try to host it here...

    www.zippyvideos.com you can do it for free without an account.

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    I'll be glad to host it for you, if you like.

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    Default Try this link/address for the video.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB

    What caused the sudden increase in flame production in the overhead?

    The introduction of oxygen to a combustible atmosphere.

    Itís a perfect example of why you should stay low.

    Iím not getting into how the oxygen came in.

    Stay Safe

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    I'm going to take a shot in the dark here.........someone forgot to bleed the line?
    FF/NREMT-B

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    Its hard to tell if they ever opened the line at all. I think it looks like maybe they got it opened up.

    I was just wondering if it did that prior to getting the nozzle opened up.
    RK
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    How did the O2 get introduced?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    How did the O2 get introduced?
    How do you know thats what happened? That was kinda my point. I am not sure if that ocurred after they opened the line or if there was just a rapid development of fire as they entered the room. That can happen you know.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    You're right it can.

    Didn't you see the nozzle get opened up right before the sudden increase of fire in the overhead? I did. Watch it a couple of times.

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    Hey,

    Seems to me they're using a narrow cone patern on a fog nozzle without any forward ventilation. The increased pressure in the room caused by the fog nozzle vented through the only opening available (the door)...

    Regards,

    Sly

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    That 30 deg. fog pattern It gives auto nozzles a bad name - check your nozzle bfore you go in!

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    There are varying reasons why fire streams can do this .... both straight stream applications and fog cones can have the same effect of creating a sort of 'blow-back' of fire under some circumstances. We use mini demonstrator 'dolls houses' to teach this effect. It can sometimes occur where water passes through the flames to hit a back wall or area of superheated fuel surface, creating a 'slug' of steam that pushes flaming combustion straight back at the nozzle operator as the superheated steam expands. There is also the potential for introducing oxygen into a fuel rich flame .... all types of stream carry some amount of air into the fire zone and if the flames are orange (oxygen deficient) there may be some sudden rapid development in the flaming combustion. Another way to cause rapid fire development (seems this might be the case in the video) is for the steam 'slug' to force flaming up into the overhead, causing some rapid mixing of the fire gases.

    This is one of the primary reasons we are teaching short burst nozzle techniques through the 3D Firefighting approach, to avoid such situations. The overhead should be taken before the base fire in this instance with one or two brief bursts used to cool and 'inert' the gases there.

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    TPlumb - I wouldn't mind a copy of the video clip for training purposes .... Fire4242@aol.com

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    As always, thanks for the info Paul!

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    Paul,

    Your post is very thoughtful and descriptive of fire behavior and water application. I've never heard of the steam being referred to as a "slug". We (my friends and I) usually call it a "bump". We demonstrate the "bump" in a thermal balance fire fighting class we teach at our state academy. So I know what you are talking about in your description. Maybe, you call yours a slug because you apply more water and it moves slower than our bump.

    I think that what you are seeing in the video is air and water (steam) pushing heat into a cooler (not hot enough too burn) gas environment, thus making it ignite. As the FF's enter the room the gases are flowing (venting) over their heads. These gases (smoke)are to cool to burn, I know this because they have plenty of 02. So if they were too rich they would be burning. If not at thier heads it would be burning closer to the vent point (vent point ignition).

    When the fire fighters apply their stream, the flame (heat) pushes out to meet the flammable range gases that are underheated and heats and ignites them.

    So on to 3D pulsing. Why would I pulse into the overhead, when I can Solid or Straight Stream Indirect off the ceiling and bounce the water into the base of the fire? This action described and demonstrated many times will cool the overhead and knock the fire off the ceiling and then allow me to go Direct at the base after my bump clears the room over my head. My water application is just enough to darken the fire, not dump (slug?) the thermal balance that exists in this room.

    I'm sure we can work out a deal on the video copy. Your "Doll House" demonstration sounds interesting to me. Maybe I could get more info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    Paul,

    Your post is very thoughtful and descriptive of fire behavior and water application. I've never heard of the steam being referred to as a "slug". We (my friends and I) usually call it a "bump". We demonstrate the "bump" in a thermal balance fire fighting class we teach at our state academy. So I know what you are talking about in your description. Maybe, you call yours a slug because you apply more water and it moves slower than our bump.
    TPLUMB -

    .... 'slug' .... certainly not official terminology and a term I made up on the spot to try and explain the concepts. I have equally never heard of a 'bump' or 'dump' but feel that there should be an accepted term and definition of this process as it is obviously relevant to firefighters.

    I don't think we are too far out on our definitions and thought process here and I acknowledge that you too have noted (and taught) similar events whilst training at your state academy.

    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    I think that what you are seeing in the video is air and water (steam) pushing heat into a cooler (not hot enough too burn) gas environment, thus making it ignite. As the FF's enter the room the gases are flowing (venting) over their heads. These gases (smoke)are to cool to burn, I know this because they have plenty of 02. So if they were too rich they would be burning. If not at thier heads it would be burning closer to the vent point (vent point ignition).

    When the fire fighters apply their stream, the flame (heat) pushes out to meet the flammable range gases that are underheated and heats and ignites them.
    OK we are both in agreement on the 'involvement of overhead gases' in this process. I would not get into a deep discussion on whether the sudden flaming is caused by gases being brought into the right 'mix' or if the flame front from the base fire heats the gases sufficently for them to ignite. It is probably a combination of both.

    Quote Originally Posted by TPLUMB
    So on to 3D pulsing. Why would I pulse into the overhead, when I can Solid or Straight Stream Indirect off the ceiling and bounce the water into the base of the fire? This action described and demonstrated many times will cool the overhead and knock the fire off the ceiling and then allow me to go Direct at the base after my bump clears the room over my head. My water application is just enough to darken the fire, not dump (slug?) the thermal balance that exists in this room.
    There is no doubt that what you say is correct. A solid stream bounced off the ceiling will cool overhead gases to some effect and allow water to reach the fire's base. I have done this enough times myself to appreciate the effect. However, the application of smaller amounts of water in droplet form, by pulsing or bursting a fog pattern as opposed to bouncing a straight stream of the ceiling, presents far greater cooling capacity. It is more difficult to maintain the height of a smoke layer using the straight stream technique as opposed to the fog pattern using bursts or pulses. Repeated tests and scientific thermal readouts also support this 'notion' .... to the point that it almost becomes 'fact'.

    It is not possible to RAISE a smoke layer using the straight stream method but this can be achieved by 'pulsing' a fog pattern.

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