Outrigger support pads

[MattyJ]

Pads and pins anytime the ladder is used. No exceptions.

No exceptions?? Hope Im not the one hanging from a window when you pull up.

[tny]

I’ll place my trust and well-being in the hands of a knowledgeable, well-trained and experienced chauffeur.

Hard surface no pads --- soft surface pads & cribbing.

· Quick grab limited time frame op’s -- no pads or pins.
· Extended long term op’s -- pads, pins & cribbing when ground surface conditions dictate.

MFG’s must engineer & spec their apparatus to real world needs and operational conditions. NFPA needs to stop trying to mandate that MFG’s build idiot-proof apparatus just to CYA for FD’s that are either unwilling or incapable of developing a pool of well trained/experience chauffeurs. Stop the friggin insanity.

BTW, if a MFG tells me I cannot operate their aerial device on hard surface without using aux pads they can keep their rig. You should be able to operate at rated Tip loads 0 deg (1.5 –1.0 tip-over and 2.0 – 1.0 structure) on hard surface without aux pads ……….

Stay Safe

[MattyJ]

I’ll place my trust and well-being in the hands of a knowledgeable, well-trained and experienced chauffeur.

Hard surface no pads --- soft surface pads & cribbing.

· Quick grab limited time frame op’s -- no pads or pins.
· Extended long term op’s -- pads, pins & cribbing when ground surface conditions dictate.

MFG’s must engineer & spec their apparatus to real world needs and operational conditions. NFPA needs to stop trying to mandate that MFG’s build idiot-proof apparatus just to CYA for FD’s that are either unwilling or incapable of developing a pool of well trained/experience chauffeurs. Stop the friggin insanity.

BTW, if a MFG tells me I cannot operate their aerial device on hard surface without using aux pads they can keep their rig. You should be able to operate at rated Tip loads 0 deg (1.5 –1.0 tip-over and 2.0 – 1.0 structure) on hard surface without aux pads ……….

Stay Safe

Amen to all that.

When I worked in a Tower Ladder Co., we actually discussed setting up the Tower Ladder with only the inboard side down, in case there was zero clearence on the outboard side and it was an extreme emergency, the key was to not move the boom to the other side. Would the manufactuer recommend it, of course not...will it work..absolutly. We need to be able to adapt and overcome if need be to get the job done. You wont always be able to do everything "by the book".

[Halligan84]

Experience and training is the key, but I don't think I'd be the Chief telling the guys they didn't have to do what the manufacturer says when it comes time to set up the $800,000 rig! As far as the short jack, we can do it with ours, the rotation is automatically cut off to that side of the rig. With the Ascopes don't the outriggers keep the turntable from rotating when they are up? I seem to remember that they are notched in.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Our two aerials are E-One 110 foot rearmounts. The jack controls are at ther rear of the truck, so the driver and the front seat passenger each grab the ground pad and place it while going to the back of the rig. Once the jacks are down, the stick is raised and the ladder crew goes to work.

Concerning concrete and asphalt....

I have seen aerial jacks break through concrete that has been undermined by water, and I have seen asphalt give way under jacks on a hot summer day.

It takes but a few seconds to grab the ground plates and put them down... better safe than sorry..

PS: another question to ponder.. how many aerial failures were caused by improper jacking procedures, causing stress to the stick?

[PFDTruck18]

If the paved surface gave way under the weight and pressure of the jack, Im apt to think they would give way under the weight and pressure of the jack sitting on the jack plate. The plate will spread the weight over a larger area but only slightly larger than the jack would originally.

[MEck51]

I have always put down the pads. Don't have any hard facts as to why other than that's what the boss says to do. I will agree on asphalt it may be needed. I look at what happens when I park my bike on asphalt on a hot summer day, it starts to sink in. As for concrete, probably not as big a need on an "official" street, something a town or county would put down. But anywhere else, no sense in risking it, you never know who is cuttin corners and skimpin out on jobs. It may not be up to spec, it may not be the right mixture, thickness. Overall though, just to be consistent- do it all the time.

[tny]

If the paved surface gave way under the weight and pressure of the jack, Im apt to think they would give way under the weight and pressure of the jack sitting on the jack plate. The plate will spread the weight over a larger area but only slightly larger than the jack would originally.

PFDTruck18, I agree.

If you’re suspicious of the stability of the surface you’re operating on you have choices.

•Re-spot the rig if possible and tactically feasible.

•Utilize cribbing along with the aux jack pads to expand the jack pad footprint well beyond standard area.

Next time you pass a construction site take a look at the cranes. Especially the rough terrain cranes and the type of surfaces they’re operating on. Take notes on what they use for cribbing and how it’s configured.

JMO, whatever gets the job done for you.

Stay Safe

[MattyJ]

Experience and training is the key, but I don't think I'd be the Chief telling the guys they didn't have to do what the manufacturer says when it comes time to set up the $800,000 rig! As far as the short jack, we can do it with ours, the rotation is automatically cut off to that side of the rig. With the Ascopes don't the outriggers keep the turntable from rotating when they are up? I seem to remember that they are notched in.

Yes they are notched in...you have to move the outboard tormentor out appox. 6 inches.

I would have no problem telling the guys they "didnt have to do what the manufacturer says" ....if faced with an extreme emergency, where a life was at stake, and this peice of equiptment could make a difference, The members operating should know how it can be done if need be. The rig is capable of handling this. Is it optimal..No, but it can be done in an emergency, at least until another NFPA regulation takes that option away.

[captjab]

Geeeeeeeez guys.....it dosnt take a long time to set the pads and pins...

Have one of the guys help set up the pads + pins and be done with it. Now I know every truck is different and pad size is also different but it does help.

Speed develops with training.

[Dave1983]

No exceptions?? Hope Im not the one hanging from a window when you pull up.

Come on now. Were not talking a 5 minute operation here. Give me a break.

Follow along...

Officers jumpseat FF gets out, grabs the wheel chokes that are right by his door, throws them under the from tire.

While this is going on...

Officer walks to rear of truck (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

At the same time...

Drivers jumpseat FF walks to rear (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

And...

By this time, driver is at the rear (where the aerial controls are) and is running the stabilizers out.

While raising the ladder, the stabilizers are pinned.

Hmmm, that sure took a long time.

Training = speed, and we train a lot. Matter of fact, we laddered three buildings yesterday for training. Not rushing, the ladder was ready for climbing in 3-4 minutes, at full extension, eveytime. And that was while training a new engineer.

[MattyJ]

Come on now. Were not talking a 5 minute operation here. Give me a break.

Follow along...

Officers jumpseat FF gets out, grabs the wheel chokes that are right by his door, throws them under the from tire.

While this is going on...

Officer walks to rear of truck (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

At the same time...

Drivers jumpseat FF walks to rear (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

And...

By this time, driver is at the rear (where the aerial controls are) and is running the stabilizers out.

While raising the ladder, the stabilizers are pinned.

Hmmm, that sure took a long time.

Training = speed, and we train a lot. Matter of fact, we laddered three buildings yesterday for training. Not rushing, the ladder was ready for climbing in 3-4 minutes, at full extension, eveytime. And that was while training a new engineer.

Ok.....now follow along.

Our Officers do not operate outside setting up the rig, they go in the fire building and supervise the two firefighters on the inside team (forcible entry and can) They need to force doors (so we can get water on the fire) and search for the victim who was'nt lucky enough to make it to a window.

Our roof firefighters job is very specific...he goes directly to the roof no matter what else is going on, in fact our books state "Nothing shall deter the Roofman" from getting to the roof...including setting up the rig for a rescue operation.

That leaves our Outside Vent firefighter and Chauffer, both fully capable of setting it up, and performing any rescues on the exterior; however it certainly would be quicker for the Chauffer to drop the tormentors, while the OVM is getting his tools and climbing to the bucket, then begining operating it as soon as the tormentors are down.

I did say that I would leave the pads and pins out if time was critical (such as a person hanging from a window with fire approaching) If it only takes a few minutes, I suggest you try holding your head over an open flame to see just how long a few minutes really is. Hmmmm...hotter than you thought I'd guess.
I would NOT leave the pins out when time is not as critical. We need to be capable of adapting and overcoming (such as when you cannot lower the outboaed side and the ladder is needed in an emergency) and realize that many situations will present itself where "the book" simply will not work. There is very few always and never situations in the fire service, and it is our job to determine just what we are capable of doing when things dont go our way.

[Dave1983]

Ok.....now follow along.

Our Officers do not operate outside setting up the rig, they go in the fire building and supervise the two firefighters on the inside team (forcible entry and can) They need to force doors (so we can get water on the fire) and search for the victim who was'nt lucky enough to make it to a window.

Our roof firefighters job is very specific...he goes directly to the roof no matter what else is going on, in fact our books state "Nothing shall deter the Roofman" from getting to the roof...including setting up the rig for a rescue operation.

That leaves our Outside Vent firefighter and Chauffer, both fully capable of setting it up, and performing any rescues on the exterior; however it certainly would be quicker for the Chauffer to drop the tormentors, while the OVM is getting his tools and climbing to the bucket, then begining operating it as soon as the tormentors are down.

I did say that I would leave the pads and pins out if time was critical (such as a person hanging from a window with fire approaching) If it only takes a few minutes, I suggest you try holding your head over an open flame to see just how long a few minutes really is. Hmmmm...hotter than you thought I'd guess.
I would NOT leave the pins out when time is not as critical. We need to be capable of adapting and overcoming (such as when you cannot lower the outboaed side and the ladder is needed in an emergency) and realize that many situations will present itself where "the book" simply will not work. There is very few always and never situations in the fire service, and it is our job to determine just what we are capable of doing when things dont go our way.

Sounds reasonable.

But here is where are operations differ. If we pull up and someones hanging out a window, then the trucks priority is that exterior rescue. The entire truck crew would be involved with it. Part of the crew wouldnt go inside or to the roof. We dont usually split crews (except for the engineer). With the extra hands, it really takes no extra time to drop the pads, even if you are holding your breath.

I agree, the way you guys operate it probably isnt always possible to drop pads and pin jacks. Not saying I have a problem with how you operate, we just dont do it that way. With your buildings, our way probably wouldnt work very well.

No problem, do what you need to do I say.

[MattyJ]

Sounds reasonable.

But here is where are operations differ. If we pull up and someones hanging out a window, then the trucks priority is that exterior rescue. The entire truck crew would be involved with it. Part of the crew wouldnt go inside or to the roof. We dont usually split crews (except for the engineer). With the extra hands, it really takes no extra time to drop the pads, even if you are holding your breath.

I agree, the way you guys operate it probably isnt always possible to drop pads and pin jacks. Not saying I have a problem with how you operate, we just dont do it that way. With your buildings, our way probably wouldnt work very well.

No problem, do what you need to do I say.

10-4 K........A note on the roofman though. One reason the roofman is never detered from getting to the roof, is because the very act of venting the bulkhead or skylight over the stairs may negate the need for an exterior rescue (drawing the heat/smoke/fire away from the victim in the window) or at least it will help relieve conditions enough so the guys on the inside can make a push to reach the person.

[Weruj1]

While it is different everywhere ................for us it just doenst make that big a deal to drop the pads .........with a GOOD operator we can drop all 4 jacks at once.

[Dave1983]

10-4 K........A note on the roofman though. One reason the roofman is never detered from getting to the roof, is because the very act of venting the bulkhead or skylight over the stairs may negate the need for an exterior rescue (drawing the heat/smoke/fire away from the victim in the window) or at least it will help relieve conditions enough so the guys on the inside can make a push to reach the person.

Hmmm, interesting thought. I would just assume if the persons hanging out the window, the fire's probably in their apartment,blocking their egress, and ventings not going to make much difference (for the victim).

Of course, I realize thats not always the case, as if the fire is a couple apartments away and they (victim) just cant get through the smoke. In that case, I can see the advantage of your sending a jake to the roof to open things up.

[MattyJ]

Roof ventilation will absolutly make it easier for the Inside team and Engine company advancement (which benefits everyone involved) There is a good chance the fire will be drawn away for the victim, especially when the apartment door is opened or burnt through. Roof ventilation must not be delayed in this situation. Two members working togather with either a portable or aerial ladder should be able to get this person from the window, the other truck members should be going inside to search and locate the fire, and vent the roof.

[Bones42]

MattyJ, now you're going to get someone telling you it's wrong to open a roof on the 24th floor when the people are hanging out the 4th floor window instead of placing pads/pins in place.

[HeavyRescueTech]

matty,
quick question about your FDNY ops for roof guys. do you send one guy the the roof or two? I know I have been told that a firefigher always works with a partner. does FDNY do things differently, having each individual member of the truck company assigned a different task?

[bigjim1301]

Here is the quote from NFPA 1901 reference why you need pads:

20.21.4.2 The ground contact area for each stabilizer shall be such that a unit pressure of not greater than 75 psi (500 kPa) will be exerted over the ground contact area when the apparatus is loaded to its maximum in-service weight and the aerial device is carrying its rated capacity in every position permitted by the manufacturer.

20.21.4.2.1 The requirement defined in 20.21.4.2 shall be permitted to be accomplished with stabilizer pads in conjunction with the permanently mounted stabilizer shoes to meet the loading requirement of 75 psi (500 kPa) or less.