1. #26
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    735

    Default

    If the paved surface gave way under the weight and pressure of the jack, Im apt to think they would give way under the weight and pressure of the jack sitting on the jack plate. The plate will spread the weight over a larger area but only slightly larger than the jack would originally.

  2. #27
    Forum Member
    MEck51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    444

    Default

    I have always put down the pads. Don't have any hard facts as to why other than that's what the boss says to do. I will agree on asphalt it may be needed. I look at what happens when I park my bike on asphalt on a hot summer day, it starts to sink in. As for concrete, probably not as big a need on an "official" street, something a town or county would put down. But anywhere else, no sense in risking it, you never know who is cuttin corners and skimpin out on jobs. It may not be up to spec, it may not be the right mixture, thickness. Overall though, just to be consistent- do it all the time.

  3. #28
    tny
    tny is offline
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    163

    Default

    If the paved surface gave way under the weight and pressure of the jack, Im apt to think they would give way under the weight and pressure of the jack sitting on the jack plate. The plate will spread the weight over a larger area but only slightly larger than the jack would originally.
    PFDTruck18, I agree.

    If youre suspicious of the stability of the surface youre operating on you have choices.

    Re-spot the rig if possible and tactically feasible.

    Utilize cribbing along with the aux jack pads to expand the jack pad footprint well beyond standard area.

    Next time you pass a construction site take a look at the cranes. Especially the rough terrain cranes and the type of surfaces theyre operating on. Take notes on what they use for cribbing and how its configured.

    JMO, whatever gets the job done for you.

    Stay Safe
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by tjsnys; 12-16-2005 at 08:52 PM.

  4. #29
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84
    Experience and training is the key, but I don't think I'd be the Chief telling the guys they didn't have to do what the manufacturer says when it comes time to set up the $800,000 rig! As far as the short jack, we can do it with ours, the rotation is automatically cut off to that side of the rig. With the Ascopes don't the outriggers keep the turntable from rotating when they are up? I seem to remember that they are notched in.

    Yes they are notched in...you have to move the outboard tormentor out appox. 6 inches.

    I would have no problem telling the guys they "didnt have to do what the manufacturer says" ....if faced with an extreme emergency, where a life was at stake, and this peice of equiptment could make a difference, The members operating should know how it can be done if need be. The rig is capable of handling this. Is it optimal..No, but it can be done in an emergency, at least until another NFPA regulation takes that option away.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 12-16-2005 at 08:49 PM.

  5. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Santa Rosa County, Florida
    Posts
    160

    Default

    Geeeeeeeez guys.....it dosnt take a long time to set the pads and pins...

    Have one of the guys help set up the pads + pins and be done with it. Now I know every truck is different and pad size is also different but it does help.

    Speed develops with training.

  6. #31
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    No exceptions?? Hope Im not the one hanging from a window when you pull up.
    Come on now. Were not talking a 5 minute operation here. Give me a break.

    Follow along...

    Officers jumpseat FF gets out, grabs the wheel chokes that are right by his door, throws them under the from tire.

    While this is going on...

    Officer walks to rear of truck (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

    At the same time...

    Drivers jumpseat FF walks to rear (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

    And...

    By this time, driver is at the rear (where the aerial controls are) and is running the stabilizers out.

    While raising the ladder, the stabilizers are pinned.

    Hmmm, that sure took a long time.

    Training = speed, and we train a lot. Matter of fact, we laddered three buildings yesterday for training. Not rushing, the ladder was ready for climbing in 3-4 minutes, at full extension, eveytime. And that was while training a new engineer.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  7. #32
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Come on now. Were not talking a 5 minute operation here. Give me a break.

    Follow along...

    Officers jumpseat FF gets out, grabs the wheel chokes that are right by his door, throws them under the from tire.

    While this is going on...

    Officer walks to rear of truck (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

    At the same time...

    Drivers jumpseat FF walks to rear (where he has to be to climb it) stops for about 5 seconds to pull pad out and drop it on the ground.

    And...

    By this time, driver is at the rear (where the aerial controls are) and is running the stabilizers out.

    While raising the ladder, the stabilizers are pinned.

    Hmmm, that sure took a long time.

    Training = speed, and we train a lot. Matter of fact, we laddered three buildings yesterday for training. Not rushing, the ladder was ready for climbing in 3-4 minutes, at full extension, eveytime. And that was while training a new engineer.
    Ok.....now follow along.

    Our Officers do not operate outside setting up the rig, they go in the fire building and supervise the two firefighters on the inside team (forcible entry and can) They need to force doors (so we can get water on the fire) and search for the victim who was'nt lucky enough to make it to a window.

    Our roof firefighters job is very specific...he goes directly to the roof no matter what else is going on, in fact our books state "Nothing shall deter the Roofman" from getting to the roof...including setting up the rig for a rescue operation.

    That leaves our Outside Vent firefighter and Chauffer, both fully capable of setting it up, and performing any rescues on the exterior; however it certainly would be quicker for the Chauffer to drop the tormentors, while the OVM is getting his tools and climbing to the bucket, then begining operating it as soon as the tormentors are down.

    I did say that I would leave the pads and pins out if time was critical (such as a person hanging from a window with fire approaching) If it only takes a few minutes, I suggest you try holding your head over an open flame to see just how long a few minutes really is. Hmmmm...hotter than you thought I'd guess.
    I would NOT leave the pins out when time is not as critical. We need to be capable of adapting and overcoming (such as when you cannot lower the outboaed side and the ladder is needed in an emergency) and realize that many situations will present itself where "the book" simply will not work. There is very few always and never situations in the fire service, and it is our job to determine just what we are capable of doing when things dont go our way.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 12-17-2005 at 01:28 PM.

  8. #33
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    Ok.....now follow along.

    Our Officers do not operate outside setting up the rig, they go in the fire building and supervise the two firefighters on the inside team (forcible entry and can) They need to force doors (so we can get water on the fire) and search for the victim who was'nt lucky enough to make it to a window.

    Our roof firefighters job is very specific...he goes directly to the roof no matter what else is going on, in fact our books state "Nothing shall deter the Roofman" from getting to the roof...including setting up the rig for a rescue operation.

    That leaves our Outside Vent firefighter and Chauffer, both fully capable of setting it up, and performing any rescues on the exterior; however it certainly would be quicker for the Chauffer to drop the tormentors, while the OVM is getting his tools and climbing to the bucket, then begining operating it as soon as the tormentors are down.

    I did say that I would leave the pads and pins out if time was critical (such as a person hanging from a window with fire approaching) If it only takes a few minutes, I suggest you try holding your head over an open flame to see just how long a few minutes really is. Hmmmm...hotter than you thought I'd guess.
    I would NOT leave the pins out when time is not as critical. We need to be capable of adapting and overcoming (such as when you cannot lower the outboaed side and the ladder is needed in an emergency) and realize that many situations will present itself where "the book" simply will not work. There is very few always and never situations in the fire service, and it is our job to determine just what we are capable of doing when things dont go our way.
    Sounds reasonable.

    But here is where are operations differ. If we pull up and someones hanging out a window, then the trucks priority is that exterior rescue. The entire truck crew would be involved with it. Part of the crew wouldnt go inside or to the roof. We dont usually split crews (except for the engineer). With the extra hands, it really takes no extra time to drop the pads, even if you are holding your breath.

    I agree, the way you guys operate it probably isnt always possible to drop pads and pin jacks. Not saying I have a problem with how you operate, we just dont do it that way. With your buildings, our way probably wouldnt work very well.

    No problem, do what you need to do I say.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  9. #34
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    Sounds reasonable.

    But here is where are operations differ. If we pull up and someones hanging out a window, then the trucks priority is that exterior rescue. The entire truck crew would be involved with it. Part of the crew wouldnt go inside or to the roof. We dont usually split crews (except for the engineer). With the extra hands, it really takes no extra time to drop the pads, even if you are holding your breath.

    I agree, the way you guys operate it probably isnt always possible to drop pads and pin jacks. Not saying I have a problem with how you operate, we just dont do it that way. With your buildings, our way probably wouldnt work very well.

    No problem, do what you need to do I say.

    10-4 K........A note on the roofman though. One reason the roofman is never detered from getting to the roof, is because the very act of venting the bulkhead or skylight over the stairs may negate the need for an exterior rescue (drawing the heat/smoke/fire away from the victim in the window) or at least it will help relieve conditions enough so the guys on the inside can make a push to reach the person.

  10. #35
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    While it is different everywhere ................for us it just doenst make that big a deal to drop the pads .........with a GOOD operator we can drop all 4 jacks at once.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  11. #36
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    10-4 K........A note on the roofman though. One reason the roofman is never detered from getting to the roof, is because the very act of venting the bulkhead or skylight over the stairs may negate the need for an exterior rescue (drawing the heat/smoke/fire away from the victim in the window) or at least it will help relieve conditions enough so the guys on the inside can make a push to reach the person.
    Hmmm, interesting thought. I would just assume if the persons hanging out the window, the fire's probably in their apartment,blocking their egress, and ventings not going to make much difference (for the victim).

    Of course, I realize thats not always the case, as if the fire is a couple apartments away and they (victim) just cant get through the smoke. In that case, I can see the advantage of your sending a jake to the roof to open things up.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 12-19-2005 at 08:47 PM.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  12. #37
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Roof ventilation will absolutly make it easier for the Inside team and Engine company advancement (which benefits everyone involved) There is a good chance the fire will be drawn away for the victim, especially when the apartment door is opened or burnt through. Roof ventilation must not be delayed in this situation. Two members working togather with either a portable or aerial ladder should be able to get this person from the window, the other truck members should be going inside to search and locate the fire, and vent the roof.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 12-19-2005 at 11:38 PM.

  13. #38
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    MattyJ, now you're going to get someone telling you it's wrong to open a roof on the 24th floor when the people are hanging out the 4th floor window instead of placing pads/pins in place.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  14. #39
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    matty,
    quick question about your FDNY ops for roof guys. do you send one guy the the roof or two? I know I have been told that a firefigher always works with a partner. does FDNY do things differently, having each individual member of the truck company assigned a different task?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  15. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    93

    Default

    Here is the quote from NFPA 1901 reference why you need pads:

    20.21.4.2 The ground contact area for each stabilizer shall be such that a unit pressure of not greater than 75 psi (500 kPa) will be exerted over the ground contact area when the apparatus is loaded to its maximum in-service weight and the aerial device is carrying its rated capacity in every position permitted by the manufacturer.

    20.21.4.2.1 The requirement defined in 20.21.4.2 shall be permitted to be accomplished with stabilizer pads in conjunction with the permanently mounted stabilizer shoes to meet the loading requirement of 75 psi (500 kPa) or less.

  16. #41
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    matty,
    quick question about your FDNY ops for roof guys. do you send one guy the the roof or two? I know I have been told that a firefigher always works with a partner. does FDNY do things differently, having each individual member of the truck company assigned a different task?
    I'll throw in an answer...although Matty can certainly offer his as well.

    We used to have 6 men and an officer on all Ladder companies most times...this 6th man was a 2nd roofman or a swing man of sorts.

    However through the loss of Battalion detailing and Staffing (Thank you Homer Bishop) we now only have 5 men and an officer on all Ladder Companies.

    Their is a roofman on all Ladder Companies. The 1st due and 2nd Due roof team up once on the roof. They however do not wait for each other.

    The OVM also operates on his own..either in the bucket...or VESing off a ladder or fire escape...usually opposite the fire. This position is usually given to the 2nd most senior man on the rig...the most senior is usually the Chauffuer.

    FTM-PTB

  17. #42
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    MattyJ, now you're going to get someone telling you it's wrong to open a roof on the 24th floor when the people are hanging out the 4th floor window instead of placing pads/pins in place.
    In that situation our Roofman goes to the floor above....fireproof building. From there he will vent the fire apartment from above, and set up for a Roof Rope rescue if a ladder cant get to the victim, or the guys in the fire apartment cant reach them. Vertical Ventilation is not as critical initially and could even cause an even worse situation with the winds often involved in these buildings.

  18. #43
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, New York
    Posts
    584

    Default

    One of the benefits of the Roofmen coming from differnt companies and not waiting for each other is they can take different routes to the roof (we dont always take a ladder to the roof, especially if it is being used for a rescue)
    This way if one of the roofmen is delayed due to any number of obstcles,such as chained bulkhead dorrs, pitbulls etc... the other will get there, and begin primary roof operations.

  19. #44
    Forum Member
    depewe4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Depew NY USA
    Posts
    3

    Thumbs up outriggers

    you should allways use the outrigger pads unless specified by an officer

  20. #45
    tny
    tny is offline
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Just a couple of thoughts Id like to add to the Aux Jack Pad discussion.

    If the aux pads are so necessary, according to the mfgs, why dont they just resize the fixed pads on the jacks, tormentors, outriggers, and eliminate the need for the aux pads?

    What ever happened to knowing your equipments capabilities inside and out. What ever happened to depending on good judgment, training and experience to make operational determinations and decisions? Why is it that we must subscribe to a one-size fits all with just about everything we do in the Fire Service today. It seems were continually trying to eliminate the need for FFs to make decisions based upon experience, training and senses in favor of electronic gadgetry or very rigid guidelines --- (you must always). Please dont take my comments as anti guidelines, SOPs or technology, however I truly believe were becoming far to dependent on those items. The fire-ground is not a static environment it is very fluid and we need to develop FFs, Chauffeurs & Officers that are fully capable of operating in these environments. As FFs whether your on the knob, door, control, roof, can, Irons -- you need to be fully capable of changing Tactics and as Officers sometimes even Strategies must be adjusted or changed on the firegound. A one size fits all approach can be disastrous.

    Now back to the jack pad issue.

    Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if were operating the ladder over the cab between 0 20 deg fore or aft of chassis centerline at full extension and 30 deg elevation?
    Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if were operating the ladder perpendicular to the chassis centerline above 40 deg elevation at 25% extension?
    Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if were operating the ladder perpendicular to the chassis centerline at full extension above 50 deg elevation?
    Do we need the aux pads on a RM is Aerial if we're operating the ladder perpendicular to the chassis centerline at 30 - 40 deg elevation at 50% extension?
    Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if we're operating the ladder off the rear at 70 deg elevation and 75% extension?

    BTW, I'm assuming a hard paved surface on all of the above scenarios, no grates, manholes, etc.

    What kind of loading can the aerial structure and jacking system (tip over) handle under the above circumstances both tip and distributed.

    We can run similar scenarios on Mid and RM tower ladders/ladder towers.

    Next time you pass a Rough Terrain Crane similar to the one pictured in my prior post ask the operating engineer some questions about his equipments capabilities/capacities under various operating environments and conditions (elevation, extension, rotation, loading, etc). Of course thats if the guys in the right frame of mind and is approachable . Chances are hell know his cranes capabilities/capacities inside and out and that's all due to his rigorous training and years of experience. Although many new cranes are filled with electronics Ill bet the vast majority operating today have very little due to age. They hold onto this equipment for a long time.

    Something else to think about, since we have calculators should we stop teaching kids addition, subtraction, division and multiplication?

    What point am I trying to make? I believe electronics and mfg guidelines are necessary and extremely helpful when not developed for the sole purpose of CYA. They should be used as a tool for fully trained and experienced chauffeurs not to CYA for poor, inadequate and/or nonexistent chauffeur qualifications-experience. As FDs, if we really want to enhance safety and operational efficiency. We need to stop beating around the bush and mandate chauffeurs know their apparatus inside and out and not just some peripheral or one size fits all knowledge.

    The purpose of this entire rant was to basically re-ask my first question. If a MFGs states that the aux jack pads should be deployed all the time, why not just build the rigs with larger fixed jack pads eliminating the need for the aux pads?


    Stay Safe
    Last edited by tjsnys; 12-20-2005 at 02:41 PM.

  21. #46
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by depewe4
    you should allways use the outrigger pads unless specified by an officer
    You are the Ladder Chauffeur. The Officer and the inside team is inside and is involved in Forcing entry and searching.

    SUDDENLY! A woman appears at a window and is about to jump. Are you:
    A. Really going to take time to use the pads? Remember seconds count.
    B. Really going to call the officer as if he is able to make this determination on the stability of the ground from inside on the fire floor?

    There are very few "ALWAYS" in this job.

    You should perhaps learn your rigs limits and learn to operate without the direct supervision of an officer.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- I would still like one of the brothers with more knowledge on the Engineering of these things to comment...specificly on Seagraves and Aerailscopes as we don't use pads and have never had that be an issue that I'm aware of.

  22. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tjsnys
    The purpose of this entire rant was to basically re-ask my first question. If a MFGs states that the aux jack pads should be deployed all the time, why not just build the rigs with larger fixed jack pads eliminating the need for the aux pads?
    Stay Safe
    Great question...I wonder the same thing.

  23. #48
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    93

    Default Outrigger pads

    Because the auxiliary pads are larger, sometimes they don't fit well on the outrigger when they are in the stowed position. Most of the larger pads would stick out from the bottom of the outriggers and hit things. I think the old ALF Aero Chiefs had large pads on them that didn't need an extra pad, but they folded up on the rig and not under it. So the outrigger pads are as large as possible while still fitting under the rig, and the auxiliary pads go down after the outriggers are extended.

  24. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim1301
    Because the auxiliary pads are larger, sometimes they don't fit well on the outrigger when they are in the stowed position. Most of the larger pads would stick out from the bottom of the outriggers and hit things. I think the old ALF Aero Chiefs had large pads on them that didn't need an extra pad, but they folded up on the rig and not under it. So the outrigger pads are as large as possible while still fitting under the rig, and the auxiliary pads go down after the outriggers are extended.
    Then how is it we with our Seagraves and Macks don't use the pads and don't have a problem with it. Are Seagraves designed differently than other appratus? Obviously we either should use them (I doubt it as no ladder has ever tipped over due to this) or many are using the pads when they aren't required and wasting time setting them up.

    For example our new Tillers the Chauffeur can deploy the outriggers from the pedestal saving time in getting the Ladder up to its objective.

    The reason I started this thread was that I found it odd that some actually mandate their use ALWAYS when it certainly isn't clear that is the proper procedure.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 12-20-2005 at 01:59 PM.

  25. #50
    tny
    tny is offline
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    163

    Default

    Heres another one.

    Why do jacks always need to be pinned? I know, I know, ---- the MFGs tell us in case of a catastrophic hydraulic failure. Well then, why dont the MFGs specify the use of pins on the superstructure (Aerial) elevating cylinders. What if they fail, wont the ladder fall out of the sky as well? Do they not trust their hydraulic designs and specs. For those of you e-one fans, I know their claim to fame is you dont need pins on their jacks. Believe me, Im not trying to promote the e-one product, just posing the questions as to why one mfg you must pin and the other you dont. Do they have magic hydraulic systems - cylinders, plumbing and valveing developed in area 51 (extreme secrecy)?

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by tjsnys; 12-20-2005 at 03:15 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Firefighters Betrayed
    By Nail200 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 259
    Last Post: 07-07-2007, 04:11 PM
  2. Dispute in PA, Support the Firefighters!
    By Shawley66 in forum Fire Politics
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-12-2000, 12:47 PM
  3. Dispute in PA, Support the Firefighters!
    By Shawley66 in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-09-2000, 08:35 PM
  4. Dispute in PA, Support the Firefighters!
    By Shawley66 in forum Emergency Services Administration
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-22-2000, 10:37 PM
  5. Dispute in PA, Support the Firefighters!
    By Shawley66 in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-21-2000, 05:29 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register