1. #51
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    1992 Seagrave Apollo 105' Tower Ladder. We always put the Pads down, and pin the jacks, every time the stick goes up. Never lost a victim either.
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    I would still like to hear from some of our more technically inclined members here that are more familiar with the engineering involved in different appratus. Are Seagraves engineered differently to allow use with out auxillary pads or are others just following the over cautious legal recomendations of their manufacturers lawyers?

    While standing fast at a job last week I saw a TL put into action very quickly in order to get a man threatening to jump from a upper floor window. The outriggers came down and the boom was up with no delay.(The other ladders weren't in a postion to get to him.) Placing pads might not have allowed enough time before he jumped.

    Here are some photos of what I'm talking about with all types of our Ladder Co's. (thanks to Mike Messar @ http://nycfire.net/messar/)





    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 12-27-2005 at 03:56 PM.

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    Side question after seeing the above pictures....and I will first state I have no experience at all with these...I thought tiller's were to pull in head first and then at the last minute turn the tractor away from the building, kind of like partially jack knifing the rig, to help with stabilization. Is that just a rumor?
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    Im no expert, but I cant imagin what Seagrave is doing that is so different. Did they ever say not to use the pads, or that with their aerial pads arent required? Is this just something you all do (not use pads).

    As far as the dealers telling us to use pads for liability reasons, I dont recall Pierce telling us anything. I really dont think liability is a reason, I mean the Pierce rep showed us how to short jack our quint by overriding the safety locks. If they were that concerned about liability, I dont think demo's on how to override safety's would be done.

    I think it just has more to do with the pads give you more surface area for support. Our first aerial was a '54 ALF 100' tiller that we bought used in '80 and refurbed. We had pads made for it ourselves, it didnt come with any. We did it to increase the "foot print" of the jack which was really small.

    So in our case anyway, its more the departments choice to always use pads. Ive never seen an aerial used without pads, so I cant say Ive seen what difference it would make. I can only assume one could run into problems on a hot & soft roadway or in sand/dirt/grass or other soft material.

    Of course, I could be wrong.
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    Per the manufacturer and the factory trainer, pads and pins every time, on solid ground. As the trainer says, "will it work on dirt?", sure, but the manufacturer states solid concrete or paving. If we deviate we're on our own and the manufacturer assumes no liability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fyrescue
    Per the manufacturer and the factory trainer, pads and pins every time, on solid ground. As the trainer says, "will it work on dirt?", sure, but the manufacturer states solid concrete or paving. If we deviate we're on our own and the manufacturer assumes no liability.
    That does'nt seem to jive with the quote from Heartbreak Ridge under your name. We are talking about adapting and overcoming when conditions are less than perfect. Which too many in todays fire service seem unwilling to do, because the "book" (written by who??) says you cant.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 12-27-2005 at 09:56 PM.

  7. #57
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    Peanut gallery comment:

    I'm glad we don't have to fuss with pins.

    The NFPA section quoted referred to 75psi of pressure being exerted on the ground as being the standard... so I guess we should ask NFPA how they came up with that... is it an average psi for of ground types based on an average weight for the aerial? Or a worst-case psi? Anyone that does offroading (or military tankers, dozer operators, etc) knows how the pressure exerted by a vehicle's footprint determines whether you're spinning your tires and moving, or going nowhere fast. Of course, things like traction, rolling resistance, and compaction also play into such scenarios. I seem to recall a chart/table somewhere about psi and ground cover, and a "sink" factor. I doubt I'll be able to find it though.

    Compared to the "out and down" style outriggers, it would seem that the tormentor style and scissor jacks would be safer on soft ground, since the surface area of the jack would actually increase as it sunk into the ground... of course, they're probably not engineered for such a thing.

    A handy tool you can make to measure the ability of the ground to carry weight is a 2 1/2' long 3/8" steel rod with a "T" handle.

    Mark the length of the rod every 6". If the rod goes into the ground 6", you can drive in without mats. 12", the tires will leave a 2" or 3" mark. 18", you're going to get stuck. 24", the truck is going to "sink" to the frame right there.
    http://www.mudtraks.com/help/hren.php Not saying this is an apples-to-apples comparison, but it illustrates the point.

    *shrug*

    As an operator I can have all four pads down in less than 30 seconds... but I'm not going to be close-minded and say that there is never a time where 30 seconds could be spent better raising the aerial -- on a reasonably solid surface.

    FWIW, a walking human exerts 72psi of pressure on the ground...ground pressure for a woman wearing stilletto heels runs around 246psi to 1595psi. The ground pressure of your truck should be equal to tire pressure... of course, with the aerial extended this can change significantly because of the leverage.
    Last edited by Resq14; 12-28-2005 at 06:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Side question after seeing the above pictures....and I will first state I have no experience at all with these...I thought tiller's were to pull in head first and then at the last minute turn the tractor away from the building, kind of like partially jack knifing the rig, to help with stabilization. Is that just a rumor?
    Bones,

    I have never seen 39 Truck or any tiller out here do that, that might be a myth. I am not 100% sure though. In neighborhoods where the tillers operate, there is no room to do that anyway (that's why they are assigned a tiller), and it would completely block the fire block for other incoming trucks.

    Matty & FFFred, great job on explaining our Truck & TL ops to the members. I stand with you guys! If I am at a window and the guys below are placing jack-pads and pins, I am throwing my Halligan at them!

    Use your good judgement and get the job done.
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    Nate, WTF!?!?! Does Julie know youre on the computer? LOL....

    Someone might know more about this than me and can get their hands on the video, but I am almost positive there is a video of a rowframe in Brooklyn about 10 years ago where an brother was ready to jump, and an aerial was able to get to him before he had to make the leap. And yes, seconds counted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Nate, WTF!?!?! Does Julie know youre on the computer? LOL....

    Someone might know more about this than me and can get their hands on the video, but I am almost positive there is a video of a rowframe in Brooklyn about 10 years ago where an brother was ready to jump, and an aerial was able to get to him before he had to make the leap. And yes, seconds counted.
    Dick!!!! LOL
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    tjsnys,
    Great replys. As a 12 year Operating Engineer before my Fire career I was a crane operator. Definetly stop by and talk to an operator. Better if their in the IUOE. You will get more accurate info. The general rule of thumb is the tonage rating of your crane or ladder truck in this case, is divided by the number of outriggers that you have. That then gives you the square footage of the pads to throw down. Example: 100 ton crane with 4 outriggers. 100 divided into 4 = 25. You then need 25 square feet under each pad. you should have a 5'x5' pad under each one. Example: a ladder truck rated @ 80,000 lbs totally loaded in service = 40 ton divided by 4 outriggers is 10 square feet per pad. As in other replys the situation will dictate if that is enough , not, or too much. Better safe than sorry. Also someone asked why the pins in the riggers and not the hydro. rams on the ladder. The outriggers once deployed are done being used unless you start to sink and need to extend them more, which you should be able to do without removing the pins. Just a safety feature. The rams on the ladder are constantely being raised and lowered so that feature is not available. I hope that was helpfull.

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    There have been some really good points brought to this thread. Our department uses the pads everytime. There is no set rule in our department on this, but just rather assumed or habit. Being captain of the department and in charge of the apparatus I would never like to see our quint set up without the pads....yes it might work just well without, but i dont want to see something happen to a brother because someone was in too much of a hurry to set pads.

    We are a rural department. Not all surfaces we set up on are pavement or concrete. That is why I stress pads everytime. If the guys are in the habit of using the pads, then they wont have to think about if the surface is stable enough to use the truck without the pads.

    Trucks have evolved alot throughout history. I remeber seeing photos of old trucks that had screw jacks. With hydraulics now days, jack are deployed quite fast. If the truck is crewed like it should be, then two guys can get the pads out while one or two guys set the riggers. Again, safety of firefighters is main consern when operating. Just as the saying goes, you cant help anyone if you dont look out for yourself. If a truck fails because of not using the pads not only is a civillian going to get hurt, but also a brother or two.

    The truck we operate is an e-one. Among the major selling points of the e-one ladder, the pinless riggers was a major. I dont care for the pins at all. Yes they are a great safety device, but it just makes me feel like the manuf. doesnt trust their system. Just a personal feeling.

    I am really interested in this topic and i am looking forward to reading what other departments are doing and what other opinions are.

    Stay safe out there guys.

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    I have a couple of questions for the NYC guys. I was recently transferred to a house with a 105' RM Pierce tower ladder, so I am still trying to get used to using it in case I am floated to it for a shift. Do you all ever have issues where your outriggers sink into the pavement at all? It gets hot here in NC in the summer, but probably no less hot than NYC with all the pavement.
    Are you all on an Eng. or a truckie? Just wondering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ
    I think it is unneccesary to use pads on solid ground. The pads that come with our rig are only 1 to 2 inches bigger than the actual outrigger. So what are you really gaining??
    Actually using firefighter friendly third grade multiplication tables and the definition of area, L X W = area, we can find out that the 1-2 inches per side of additional area can provide a rather significant increase in surface area covered, thus spreading out the load well . Let's say that the outrigger base is 10 inches by 10 inches, and the pad is 12 inches by 12 inches, an inch wider on each side (smaller then the real numbers but good for fireman math ) So the outrigger alone covers 100 square inches, while the pad covers 144 inches. If the pad were to be 2 inches all around that would be a pad 14 inches by 14 inches, so you are now covering 196 inches, almost twice the area. The only reason to not use the pads is if the manufacturer has already made the base of the outrigger of a significant and adequate size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFDLT1
    I have a couple of questions for the NYC guys. I was recently transferred to a house with a 105' RM Pierce tower ladder, so I am still trying to get used to using it in case I am floated to it for a shift. Do you all ever have issues where your outriggers sink into the pavement at all? It gets hot here in NC in the summer, but probably no less hot than NYC with all the pavement.
    Are you all on an Eng. or a truckie? Just wondering.
    I don't recall ever seeing this happen and if it had I'm sure it would have been the subject of one of our Pass Along Bulletins as a major safety issue. So no it isn't an issue.

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    "Trucks have evolved alot throughout history. I remeber seeing photos of old trucks that had screw jacks. With hydraulics now days, jack are deployed quite fast."
    We had a older Pirsh with screw jacks, and I have yet to see a truck set up faster. It is all on how the rig and your crew is set up. With the old Pirsh the driver would go into PTO while the steps would drop the pads and the screws. By the time the driver was on the turntable and raising the ladder all 4 outriggers were set, with pads down. Around 25 to 30 seconds max.
    Anyway, on a rural road (blacktop) I have seen the pads sink slightly 1cm or less. I haven't seen it on a regular street. Use the pads, they should be next to the jacks, if not MOVE THEM.
    Remember why we have the truck, to save lives and access the upper stories and roof. Set the entire truck up to streamline those operations. I have seen saws, and other tools along with hose (why it would be on a truck is beyond comprehension) electric reels and all types of junk in the baskets of modern tower ladders. We can hardly get around how will victims of a fire do it?
    Anyway, do what the manufacturer wants, if they told you to use the pads then use them.
    If you are not comfortable with where the pads go then try this. Extend the jacks on one side, then move to the other side while another FF places the pads. Finish set up on the first side while he places the pads on the second side. It is not ideal but it beats moving the pads because they are in the wrong place. Other things can be ised like your pike pole to measure distance.
    As for the pins (at liest on a Pierce) they are a safety item and not needed for operation. Set up the ladder and when you get a second put the pins in.

    FFFRED I can speak for my department, when inserviced on our ladders (E-One and Pierce) they said the pads were needed for softer ground and not needed everytime we set up. Our shift commander threatened to write up anyone who used them without the pads. (this came from the chief according to him) I guess we are unable to think for ourselves. We have the same rule about short jacking the Pierce. I'll take my hits if it saves a life. The bottom line is. Learn your truck inside and out and learn what it can and can't do. Then when the Sh*t hits the fan and what you do will save a life do the right thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD
    Our shift commander threatened to write up anyone who used them without the pads. (this came from the chief according to him) I guess we are unable to think for ourselves.
    The pads also cut down on the wear to the base of the outriggers, it is a heck of a lot easier, thus cheaper to replace a pad then to rebuild an outrigger. And means the front line rig stays with you rather then being stuck with a reserve unit for a few weeks.

    Train and work as the team that you train to be and it will take no more then an additional few seconds to get the pads out. On the calls where you see that the stick needs to get up FAST for a rescue you can likely get away with skipping it if you have a solid base, but there is no need to skip the practice in the routine.
    Last edited by DennisTheMenace; 01-20-2006 at 04:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Side question after seeing the above pictures....and I will first state I have no experience at all with these...I thought tiller's were to pull in head first and then at the last minute turn the tractor away from the building, kind of like partially jack knifing the rig, to help with stabilization. Is that just a rumor?
    With the older Seagraves, you had to do that, because the weight of the truck acted as a counter balance. Now the trucks have been made strong enought that they are now designed to be operated inline. Remember the modernday tiller trucks are most stable with the ladder over the tractor.

    On days I am driving the truck, on every fire call, I set the truck up for use (even on smells and bells) that way, when i really need to do it it is automatic.

    Either you put jack pads down or you don't. I suggest that you do because the one time you'll need to you'll forget to do that. Ever try to bed a ladder that is fully extended with the truck on its side. Do it for safety and everyone goes home.

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    Post Stabilizer Pads

    We were trained by Snorkel reps to use stabilizer pads whenever the aerials are being setup to distribute the weight. It doesn't matter what the ground environment is at the time.

    We have an 85' Snorkel and a 75' Telesqurt. We drop the ground pads every time the units are setup. The pads on the Snorkel are solid steel and I think there about 2'x2' by 1" in thickness. The pads on the Telesqurt are that same except their made out of aluminum. We were told by Snorkel that we can not use the aluminum pads with the Snorkel cause of the weight difference in the two aerials but ALF has stated that they now use the aluminum pads on all of their Snorkels. (interesting)

    Has for icy conditions, I would prefer to lay down some oil dry to act as a form of traction for the pads so that when the outrigger shoe it's the pads they don't slide away from the truck.
    Jim Shultz
    Oshtemo Fire Dept
    Fleet Maintenance Specialist

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    Default About the jack knife question

    We run a 100' ALF tiller. The book recommends you jack knife for maximum reach of the ladder but it isnt necessary. Some of the older Seagraves recommend always setting up in the jack knife position especially for a ladder pipe operation.

    We also have never had a problem with the pads sinking into the pavement. Just remember nerver drop em on manholes and train/trolley tracks
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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