Outrigger support pads

[FFFRED]

matty,
quick question about your FDNY ops for roof guys. do you send one guy the the roof or two? I know I have been told that a firefigher always works with a partner. does FDNY do things differently, having each individual member of the truck company assigned a different task?

I'll throw in an answer...although Matty can certainly offer his as well.

We used to have 6 men and an officer on all Ladder companies most times...this 6th man was a 2nd roofman or a swing man of sorts.

However through the loss of Battalion detailing and Staffing (Thank you Homer Bishop) we now only have 5 men and an officer on all Ladder Companies.

Their is a roofman on all Ladder Companies. The 1st due and 2nd Due roof team up once on the roof. They however do not wait for each other.

The OVM also operates on his own..either in the bucket...or VESing off a ladder or fire escape...usually opposite the fire. This position is usually given to the 2nd most senior man on the rig...the most senior is usually the Chauffuer.

FTM-PTB

[MattyJ]

MattyJ, now you're going to get someone telling you it's wrong to open a roof on the 24th floor when the people are hanging out the 4th floor window instead of placing pads/pins in place.

In that situation our Roofman goes to the floor above....fireproof building. From there he will vent the fire apartment from above, and set up for a Roof Rope rescue if a ladder cant get to the victim, or the guys in the fire apartment cant reach them. Vertical Ventilation is not as critical initially and could even cause an even worse situation with the winds often involved in these buildings.

[MattyJ]

One of the benefits of the Roofmen coming from differnt companies and not waiting for each other is they can take different routes to the roof (we dont always take a ladder to the roof, especially if it is being used for a rescue)
This way if one of the roofmen is delayed due to any number of obstcles,such as chained bulkhead dorrs, pitbulls etc... the other will get there, and begin primary roof operations.

[depewe4]

you should allways use the outrigger pads unless specified by an officer

[tny]

Just a couple of thoughts I’d like to add to the Aux Jack Pad discussion.

· If the aux pads are so necessary, according to the mfg’s, why don’t they just resize the fixed pads on the jacks, tormentors, outriggers, and eliminate the need for the aux pads?

What ever happened to knowing your equipments capabilities inside and out. What ever happened to depending on good judgment, training and experience to make operational determinations and decisions? Why is it that we must subscribe to a one-size fits all with just about everything we do in the Fire Service today. It seems we’re continually trying to eliminate the need for FF’s to make decisions based upon experience, training and senses in favor of electronic gadgetry or very rigid guidelines --- (you must always). Please don’t take my comments as anti guidelines, SOP’s or technology, however I truly believe were becoming far to dependent on those items. The fire-ground is not a static environment it is very fluid and we need to develop FF’s, Chauffeurs & Officers that are fully capable of operating in these environments. As FF’s whether your on the knob, door, control, roof, can, Irons -- you need to be fully capable of changing Tactics and as Officers sometimes even Strategies must be adjusted or changed on the firegound. A one size fits all approach can be disastrous.

Now back to the jack pad issue.

·Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if we’re operating the ladder over the cab between 0 – 20 deg fore or aft of chassis centerline at full extension and 30 deg elevation?
·Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if we’re operating the ladder perpendicular to the chassis centerline above 40 deg elevation at 25% extension?
·Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if we’re operating the ladder perpendicular to the chassis centerline at full extension above 50 deg elevation?
·Do we need the aux pads on a RM is Aerial if we're operating the ladder perpendicular to the chassis centerline at 30 - 40 deg elevation at 50% extension?
·Do we need the aux pads on a RM Aerial if we're operating the ladder off the rear at 70 deg elevation and 75% extension?

BTW, I'm assuming a hard paved surface on all of the above scenarios, no grates, manholes, etc.

What kind of loading can the aerial structure and jacking system (tip over) handle under the above circumstances both tip and distributed.

We can run similar scenarios on Mid and RM tower ladders/ladder towers.

Next time you pass a Rough Terrain Crane similar to the one pictured in my prior post ask the operating engineer some questions about his equipments capabilities/capacities under various operating environments and conditions (elevation, extension, rotation, loading, etc). Of course that’s if the guys in the right frame of mind and is approachable . Chances are he’ll know his cranes capabilities/capacities inside and out and that's all due to his rigorous training and years of experience. Although many new cranes are filled with electronics I’ll bet the vast majority operating today have very little due to age. They hold onto this equipment for a long time.

Something else to think about, since we have calculators should we stop teaching kids addition, subtraction, division and multiplication?

What point am I trying to make? I believe electronics and mfg guidelines are necessary and extremely helpful when not developed for the sole purpose of CYA. They should be used as a tool for fully trained and experienced chauffeurs not to CYA for poor, inadequate and/or nonexistent chauffeur qualifications-experience. As FD’s, if we really want to enhance safety and operational efficiency. We need to stop beating around the bush and mandate chauffeurs know their apparatus inside and out and not just some peripheral or one size fits all knowledge.

The purpose of this entire rant was to basically re-ask my first question. If a MFG’s states that the aux jack pads should be deployed all the time, why not just build the rigs with larger fixed jack pads eliminating the need for the aux pads?


Stay Safe

[FFFRED]

you should allways use the outrigger pads unless specified by an officer

You are the Ladder Chauffeur. The Officer and the inside team is inside and is involved in Forcing entry and searching.

SUDDENLY! A woman appears at a window and is about to jump. Are you:
A. Really going to take time to use the pads? Remember seconds count.
B. Really going to call the officer as if he is able to make this determination on the stability of the ground from inside on the fire floor?

There are very few "ALWAYS" in this job.

You should perhaps learn your rigs limits and learn to operate without the direct supervision of an officer.

FTM-PTB

PS- I would still like one of the brothers with more knowledge on the Engineering of these things to comment...specificly on Seagraves and Aerailscopes as we don't use pads and have never had that be an issue that I'm aware of.

[FFFRED]

The purpose of this entire rant was to basically re-ask my first question. If a MFG’s states that the aux jack pads should be deployed all the time, why not just build the rigs with larger fixed jack pads eliminating the need for the aux pads?
Stay Safe

Great question...I wonder the same thing.

[bigjim1301]

Because the auxiliary pads are larger, sometimes they don't fit well on the outrigger when they are in the stowed position. Most of the larger pads would stick out from the bottom of the outriggers and hit things. I think the old ALF Aero Chiefs had large pads on them that didn't need an extra pad, but they folded up on the rig and not under it. So the outrigger pads are as large as possible while still fitting under the rig, and the auxiliary pads go down after the outriggers are extended.

[FFFRED]

Because the auxiliary pads are larger, sometimes they don't fit well on the outrigger when they are in the stowed position. Most of the larger pads would stick out from the bottom of the outriggers and hit things. I think the old ALF Aero Chiefs had large pads on them that didn't need an extra pad, but they folded up on the rig and not under it. So the outrigger pads are as large as possible while still fitting under the rig, and the auxiliary pads go down after the outriggers are extended.

Then how is it we with our Seagraves and Macks don't use the pads and don't have a problem with it. Are Seagraves designed differently than other appratus? Obviously we either should use them (I doubt it as no ladder has ever tipped over due to this) or many are using the pads when they aren't required and wasting time setting them up.

For example our new Tillers the Chauffeur can deploy the outriggers from the pedestal saving time in getting the Ladder up to its objective.

The reason I started this thread was that I found it odd that some actually mandate their use ALWAYS when it certainly isn't clear that is the proper procedure.

FTM-PTB

[tny]

Here’s another one.

Why do jacks always need to be pinned? I know, I know, ---- the MFG’s tell us in case of a catastrophic hydraulic failure. Well then, why don’t the MFG’s specify the use of pins on the superstructure (Aerial) elevating cylinders. What if they fail, won’t the ladder fall out of the sky as well? Do they not trust their hydraulic designs and spec’s. For those of you e-one fans, I know their claim to fame is you don’t need pins on their jacks. Believe me, I’m not trying to promote the e-one product, just posing the questions as to why one mfg you must pin and the other you don’t. Do they have magic hydraulic systems - cylinders, plumbing and valveing – developed in area 51 (extreme secrecy)?

Stay Safe

[hwoods]

1992 Seagrave Apollo 105' Tower Ladder. We always put the Pads down, and pin the jacks, every time the stick goes up. Never lost a victim either.

[FFFRED]

I would still like to hear from some of our more technically inclined members here that are more familiar with the engineering involved in different appratus. Are Seagraves engineered differently to allow use with out auxillary pads or are others just following the over cautious legal recomendations of their manufacturers lawyers?

While standing fast at a job last week I saw a TL put into action very quickly in order to get a man threatening to jump from a upper floor window. The outriggers came down and the boom was up with no delay.(The other ladders weren't in a postion to get to him.) Placing pads might not have allowed enough time before he jumped.

Here are some photos of what I'm talking about with all types of our Ladder Co's. (thanks to Mike Messar @ http://nycfire.net/messar/)





FTM-PTB

[Bones42]

Side question after seeing the above pictures....and I will first state I have no experience at all with these...I thought tiller's were to pull in head first and then at the last minute turn the tractor away from the building, kind of like partially jack knifing the rig, to help with stabilization. Is that just a rumor?

[Dave1983]

Im no expert, but I cant imagin what Seagrave is doing that is so different. Did they ever say not to use the pads, or that with their aerial pads arent required? Is this just something you all do (not use pads).

As far as the dealers telling us to use pads for liability reasons, I dont recall Pierce telling us anything. I really dont think liability is a reason, I mean the Pierce rep showed us how to short jack our quint by overriding the safety locks. If they were that concerned about liability, I dont think demo's on how to override safety's would be done.

I think it just has more to do with the pads give you more surface area for support. Our first aerial was a '54 ALF 100' tiller that we bought used in '80 and refurbed. We had pads made for it ourselves, it didnt come with any. We did it to increase the "foot print" of the jack which was really small.

So in our case anyway, its more the departments choice to always use pads. Ive never seen an aerial used without pads, so I cant say Ive seen what difference it would make. I can only assume one could run into problems on a hot & soft roadway or in sand/dirt/grass or other soft material.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[fyrescue]

Per the manufacturer and the factory trainer, pads and pins every time, on solid ground. As the trainer says, "will it work on dirt?", sure, but the manufacturer states solid concrete or paving. If we deviate we're on our own and the manufacturer assumes no liability.

[MattyJ]

Per the manufacturer and the factory trainer, pads and pins every time, on solid ground. As the trainer says, "will it work on dirt?", sure, but the manufacturer states solid concrete or paving. If we deviate we're on our own and the manufacturer assumes no liability.

That does'nt seem to jive with the quote from Heartbreak Ridge under your name. We are talking about adapting and overcoming when conditions are less than perfect. Which too many in todays fire service seem unwilling to do, because the "book" (written by who??) says you cant.

[Resq14]

Peanut gallery comment:

I'm glad we don't have to fuss with pins.

The NFPA section quoted referred to 75psi of pressure being exerted on the ground as being the standard... so I guess we should ask NFPA how they came up with that... is it an average psi for of ground types based on an average weight for the aerial? Or a worst-case psi? Anyone that does offroading (or military tankers, dozer operators, etc) knows how the pressure exerted by a vehicle's footprint determines whether you're spinning your tires and moving, or going nowhere fast. Of course, things like traction, rolling resistance, and compaction also play into such scenarios. I seem to recall a chart/table somewhere about psi and ground cover, and a "sink" factor. I doubt I'll be able to find it though.

Compared to the "out and down" style outriggers, it would seem that the tormentor style and scissor jacks would be safer on soft ground, since the surface area of the jack would actually increase as it sunk into the ground... of course, they're probably not engineered for such a thing.

A handy tool you can make to measure the ability of the ground to carry weight is a 2 1/2' long 3/8" steel rod with a "T" handle.

Mark the length of the rod every 6". If the rod goes into the ground 6", you can drive in without mats. 12", the tires will leave a 2" or 3" mark. 18", you're going to get stuck. 24", the truck is going to "sink" to the frame right there.

http://www.mudtraks.com/help/hren.php Not saying this is an apples-to-apples comparison, but it illustrates the point.

*shrug*

As an operator I can have all four pads down in less than 30 seconds... but I'm not going to be close-minded and say that there is never a time where 30 seconds could be spent better raising the aerial -- on a reasonably solid surface.

FWIW, a walking human exerts 72psi of pressure on the ground...ground pressure for a woman wearing stilletto heels runs around 246psi to 1595psi. The ground pressure of your truck should be equal to tire pressure... of course, with the aerial extended this can change significantly because of the leverage.

[NDeMarse]

Side question after seeing the above pictures....and I will first state I have no experience at all with these...I thought tiller's were to pull in head first and then at the last minute turn the tractor away from the building, kind of like partially jack knifing the rig, to help with stabilization. Is that just a rumor?

Bones,

I have never seen 39 Truck or any tiller out here do that, that might be a myth. I am not 100% sure though. In neighborhoods where the tillers operate, there is no room to do that anyway (that's why they are assigned a tiller), and it would completely block the fire block for other incoming trucks.

Matty & FFFred, great job on explaining our Truck & TL ops to the members. I stand with you guys! If I am at a window and the guys below are placing jack-pads and pins, I am throwing my Halligan at them!

Use your good judgement and get the job done.

[nyckftbl]

Nate, WTF!?!?! Does Julie know youre on the computer? LOL....

Someone might know more about this than me and can get their hands on the video, but I am almost positive there is a video of a rowframe in Brooklyn about 10 years ago where an brother was ready to jump, and an aerial was able to get to him before he had to make the leap. And yes, seconds counted.

[NDeMarse]

Nate, WTF!?!?! Does Julie know youre on the computer? LOL....

Someone might know more about this than me and can get their hands on the video, but I am almost positive there is a video of a rowframe in Brooklyn about 10 years ago where an brother was ready to jump, and an aerial was able to get to him before he had to make the leap. And yes, seconds counted.

Dick!!!! LOL