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  1. #1
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    Question Outrigger support pads

    Here is an interesting question for all you truckies, I came about after some discussions with a few friends....

    1st- Does your apparatus "require" the use of support plates or pads? You know the ones that are slung under the rig near the jacks or outriggers.

    2nd- Are your Chauffeurs required to use these at a job under normal circumstances before using the aerial or bucket?

    (Normal circumstances are normal street conditions, not uneasy or unstable soil or terrain.)

    Here we just slam them down and go to work.

    FTM-PTB


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
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    Both of the rigs (Snorkel and KME Tower) we have had both required them by the manufacturer. Could you use them without? I suppose so. A question for you, I know that previous FDNY TL's had the ability to drop all the jacks at once. Are they still like that? The rigs (Ascopes) that I am familiar with all take longer to set up and I always see the pads under jacks. If you don't use the pads, is that something that Seagrave or Aerialscope allowed for you guys specifically or do you just go with what has worked? How about the pins? I know the company next to us has to have the pins in place or the rig won't go.

  3. #3
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    We have to use the pads. The pins are another issue. Once the pins are in place do you leave them as is, or lower the outrigger back onto it? I think you leave enough room to place the pin and don't lower the outrigger. If the hydraulics give, the pin is there to be lowered onto, approx 1/4" away. Any ideas?? Thanks

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    As a former Truckie and operator on a Baker aerial scope we did not use ground pads unless we were on soft ground, that came from the rep who gave us our training. If on a hard surface the jacks had enough surface area to place the truck in service. We currently have 8 ladders, 6 front line ladders, 2 S/T, 1 platform pierce, 1 Tiller, 1 ALF platform, 1 grumman platform that require ground pads. 2 reserve ladders also require the use of ground pads. You should refer to your owners manual for proper set up procedures most will say use of ground pads are required when operating. As for the pins same applies refer to the set up porcedures, in our Department we always pin our outriggers. You should never lower the outriggers onto the pins.STAY SAFE.

  5. #5
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    Answer to first question is yes. The reason is to dispurse the weight. The ground may look solid but, under the added weight and pressure of the unit it is possible for the ground to give away.

    Second question the answer is answered above. Why would you not want the most stable platform for your apparatus and personnel while working off the aerial?

    The pins must be inplace before the bells and whistles will shut off and allow power to be transferred to the pedastal.
    Last edited by BFDLT32; 12-14-2005 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Pins
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  6. #6
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    yes.

    yes.

    we also put the pins in, but we don't lower the jacks back onto them. they are only there as a safety backup.
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    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    We use our plates every time (pins too) but I don't know if it's required by the manufacturer or only by the department.

    In the summer, asphalt can be considered a soft unstable surface in the south.
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  8. #8
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    Pins yes, plates no. In fact, I cant even think of a place in my local where I would drop my standards onto an unpaved surface, its all concrete or asphault. Dont drop back onto the pins, they are back up only and continued bearing of weight could damage them causing failure when you truely need them.

  9. #9
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    We always use them, do you have to 100% of the time? No, but is it a good idea? Yes. We pin our jacks every time, no exceptions.
    FF/NREMT-B

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84
    A question for you, I know that previous FDNY TL's had the ability to drop all the jacks at once. Are they still like that? The rigs (Ascopes) that I am familiar with all take longer to set up and I always see the pads under jacks. If you don't use the pads, is that something that Seagrave or Aerialscope allowed for you guys specifically or do you just go with what has worked? How about the pins? I know the company next to us has to have the pins in place or the rig won't go.
    Yes they still do. The LCC and OVM makes sure everone and everything (hopefully hoses included) is out of the way and they slam the levers down at once. This is why I posed the question as I understand it some FDs actually use the pads when on stable ground. I can understand if you were setting up in a vacant lot or something like that...but on concrete or asphalt?

    As for the pins...they are used most of the time. However if time constraints are such that it isn't feesable..someone will throw them in after the boom is up. They are not necessary to get the boom up.

    As for what is actually told to us by Seagrave or Aerialscope...I don't know. There are a few other guys on here that would be better at answering that question...JFTL41 or FDNY99. I can't imagnie our TLs operate any different than ones you might use.

    If manufac's are stating that the pads must be used at all times...I'll bet in most cases it is them making it easier to absolve themselves of liablity if you foul up or tip a rig. I know it isn't mandatory in our procedures and I don't ever recall hearing about any rig tipping over due to not using the pads on solid ground.

    It doesn't seem like a good idea for a company to engineer a Ladder Truck that "requires" the pads to be used because there will come a day when people are hanging out a window and the Chauffuer will forgo the pads in the name of expeidency. I can't imagine that the pads that are already on there can't handle the load under normal circumstances.

    I would like to hear more from someone with more knowledge on the Engineering side of things.

    FTM-PTB

  11. #11
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    .................
    Last edited by Dalmatian190; 12-14-2005 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Duplicate

  12. #12
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    Per the manunfacturer, yes.

    But why are your pads the size they are and why are they required?

    SWAG.

    Scientific, Wild *** Guess. Ok, sometimes known as reasonable assumptions.

    But their mechanical engineers aren't on scene with you and a civil engineer to make a specific decision, so they punt and say, "This is good enough most of the time."

    There's a big difference between being on a main city street, going near-vertical to reach the 8th floor of a building...and being in my town stretching horizontal a 100' to reach the roof from the nearest thing resembling pavement -- that being a private drive. More force, poorer surface in the 2nd instance.

    I only remember seeing us go without them at a fire once, and that was both a very good surface and an extreme situation of needing the ladder NOW.

  13. #13
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    I think it is unneccesary to use pads on solid ground. The pads that come with our rig are only 1 to 2 inches bigger than the actual outrigger. So what are you really gaining?? As for the pins...I would use them, unless time is critical, like people hanging out windows.
    One new "feature" the Tower Ladders seem to be coming with is the pins must be ALL the way in, in order to get hydralic power to the boom! There is a magnetic strip linked to a computer, if the pin is even a fraction of an inch out, you lose all power to the boom....a great feature to have when a Brother is hanging out a window, and the pin vibrates a little bit loose. Also, you MUST have a member on the other side of the rig holding a button in order for the outriggers to go down...great use of critical manpower at a job!! These are supposedly NFPA mandates. More overthinking, insane mandates, thought of by who??? Certainly not thought of by any firefighter who actually has had to use a Tower Ladder under difficult situations!!


    One good tip....if it looks like you're going to have to lower an outrigger on a sidewalk...try to lower it on the actual sidewalk edge (curb) it is usually much thicker and you are less likely to break through it, as could happen on the actual sidewalk, which may be undermined.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
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    I think your right that the pads probably aren't necessary in all cases, but we really don't have much to go with but the manufacturer directions. One thing that we were trying to get on the KME was what they called "California Pads" something that they were working on to make the actually outrigger pad larger. I don't remember the exact reason but we couldn't get them. As far as the safety button on the passenger side I think it sucks too. Ours has an automatic feature that works very well, you just push EXTEND and they all come out and the push LEVEL and the jacks come down and level the rig out. There is a manual setting to use them individually and also a 2nd jack station on the O side if you have a tight set up and want to watch that side closely. We have pins but they do not have interlocks.

  15. #15
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    we also deploy the pins and pads ..................but since our ladder is so old (1978) we dont any of tha computerized stuff either...........so au 'manual works fine. Also our pads are easly bigger than the jacks.................
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    Okay, after reading the replies here.....why not just make the pads that are already attached to the jacks that much larger? Is it just me or am I making sense here...oh wait..that's why I'm NOT and engineer..I use some logic combined with real world experience.
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  17. #17
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    We use the plates whenever possible. We had an outrigger on our 76 Ladder go 8 inches into a parking lot while the ladder was in use. The ground where the outrigger hit looked solid.

    As for the pins we put them in ASAP. Sometimes the ladder is working by the time they are slid in. We have to leave our pins out about a 1/2-inch so if the truck comes to rest on them it will land square on them. We have had an outrigger bleed down because of a bad valve and land on a pin that was pushed all the way in. Due to the weld on the pin the outrigger only landed on the weld side. It caused the pinhole to bend. This is on a Pierce T/L, Is this a problem with other manufactures pins?

    The other thing I never understood on some manufactures outriggers was the giant covers bolted to the outriggers. It has to make it harder to get between parked cars. We had ours made to the width of the outrigger.

    Stay Safe

  18. #18
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Pads and pins anytime the ladder is used. No exceptions.
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  19. #19
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1
    we also deploy the pins and pads ..................but since our ladder is so old (1978) we dont any of tha computerized stuff either...........so au 'manual works fine. Also our pads are easly bigger than the jacks.................

    Where are these stored 201??? I can't remember.
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  20. #20
    Dispatch Dweller Jay911's Avatar
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    We use wooden "pads" on our Squrt, they're about 2'x3' and were made in-house from a number of sheets of heavy-duty wood (laminated together, of course).

    Anyone remember the photo of a FDNY truck using a Mazda as a jackpad?
    --jay.

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