1. #26
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    ktb9780 is right. I forgot to mention it when I explained our situation of 2 years ago, but we also called our Senator and Congressman and their staff was very diligent in helping to get the situation straightened out.

    I felt at the time that I was probably causing so many problems for the grants office that we would never see another grant award for the rest of our lives. However, that was not the case. This year we were awarded an AFG and a SAFER Grant for both Personnel and Recruit and Retention.

    Good Luck

  2. #27
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    Default Same Here

    We got ours this week also. Second year in a row we were rejected for an aerial that is badly needed. We anticipated the "DJ" and went ahead and beat and banged our fist through the budget process until we finally got one. But that makes us push back replacing a 21 yr old pumper that is in bad shape. Seems we will never catch up.

    Also got the "DJ" for the SAFER.

    We get rejected with a budget of around 1 million that we have to strucggle to keep at that and not be cut.....while large cities with budgets 10 times (+)ours such as Jacksonville, Orange County, Orange Park, Palm Beach COunty, Palm Springs, Sumter Co., Marion Co., Tampa..........get huge grants. Some of them have gotten grants in each of the last 3 yrs. One got a grant for a quint last year and another grant this year for equipment.

    Most of them have excellent equipment and we have mediocre....yet we get squat.....

    Ok...I am down from the soap box now!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    BMI Investigator
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  3. #28
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    Just to play ping-pong with this, are their costs 10 times as much? That's why they ask percentages and not dollar amounts, that way everything is relative.

    And if you got the quint bought for you through a little hard work, what seems to be the problem? Kinda shoots the local funding issue since you proved it could be bought locally without the grant correct? 21 y/o pumpers are nothing, one of the companies I'm providing free assistance through is passing me departments that have the whole fleet older than 30 years old.

    And to mirror a comment I made in the other forums about high dollar vehicles, they have only awarded 27 out of 899 vehicles for over $300K. Out of 7000 apps, that makes it a 0.4% chance of getting over $300K for a truck. Considering the going rate for 100' quints or towers, there were only 10 awards in the $600-700K range, only one over $700K. Big dollar trucks are very, very tough to get.

    I don't mean to seem like I'm kicking while you're down about it, denials suck. Take it from my side of the email. I get a lot of awards for people, but I also get a lot of DJs. Still batting 50% for the 5 years, but that still puts me at close to 500 of each.

    This is why I tell anyone going for any vehicle to do a COMPLETE assessment of every part of your operations before you set yourself on applying for a truck. If that effort comes back and still says that a vehicle is the top priority, then by golly make it the most competitive app you can. Aerials can be had, but if you don't fit in the same profile as the people that have been getting them over the past couple of years, make sure you have a chance at it.

    Even with 1367 trucks awarded in 2003 and 1203 in 2004, big buck awards are still few and far between. In 2001, only 2 over $300K. In 2002, 8 over $300K, 1 over $400K. 2003, 6 over $300K, 13 over $400K, 1 over $600K. 2004, 14 over $300K, 10 over $400K, 5 over $500K, 4 over $600K, 1 over $700K.

    Slim, slim chances at big trucks. I'm not saying you didn't do your homework or there was something wrong with your application by any means, I have no doubt that you put up a heck of a case. But the odds are not on some people's sides. That's why I've been hanging out here for so long putting out what I can in the forums, writing the articles, and now traveling teaching seminars. The biggest thing to realize that is so hard to accept is that it is a competitive program. 3/4s of us have to collect our wounded pride and move on and get better for the next year.

  4. #29
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    Out of the 12 trucks we went for this year, we got 10 and two of them were for aerials. One was the first time out of the box for them applying; the other had been applying for three years with denials every year. A few minor changes was all it took to get them throught the maze. Their denied applications lacked the support of their city council and they had made their case based on that, thinking that showing that the city council was nt supprotive in their efforts to get the aerial woud bolster their chances, when in fact it actually killed thier chances. Once they garnered support for the project, stated it as lack of support because of financial need and then added the true cirtical infrastructure they had and properly labled it as such, the appliciation was funded with no problems. Folks this is a highly competetive game adn you must play where your odds are highest. With only 25% of the total money set aside for trucks and 33% of the departments applying for that, even if you have a very strong application you still are entering the peer review phase at a 1 in 90 chance. I would much rather play in t e pool where 75% of the money is.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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    Wink Ummmm...

    Hey can we get that 21 year old truck? It would be a step up from the 1978 truck with a front mount pump we have now (In North Idaho... Current temp is a balmy 15 degrees Can you say FROZEN water)? A million dollar budget? Please sign me up.... We do it with 10,000 dollars a year... Can't buy much equipment when you consider the cost of fuel, insurance and regular maintenance on equipment in its third life.... But there are departments that would be greatful for 10,000 dollar budgets. They dont even try for grants cause the fundraising alone would keep them from earning a living. I guess we all got it bad. WE DO WHAT WE GOTTA DO! And we really dont have a need, or a call volume that would warrant a 300,000 dollar plus aparatus, but a 3,000 gallon tender would be nice.... Just my last two cents.

    Chief Sanford, Tensed Fire District, Tensed Idaho.

  6. #31
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    Default Sorry...

    Hey a quick My BAD! I did not mean to vent like that. We all get department envy. How many of us have thought to ourselfs, boy what could we do if we had Dept. X's budget. Or what if we had a lobby like the cops do? Boy what we could do if we had a way for the feds to give us what we lack? Oh what if....

    Anyway.... If I offended anyone I am sorry.

  7. #32
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    We all need to blow off a little steam once in awhile. That was is so good abotu a forum! No offense taken here guy.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  8. #33
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    BC79ER.....

    I know what you are saying.........and I understand. The problem is that not only do we need to replace the aerial, we need to replace the 1985 pumper too. By getting the aerial, we had to put off the pumper for another 2 yrs maybe. And as far as support goes, we got support from City Council and even indicated their willingness to kick in a bit more if we did not get the full award.

    I understand that bigger cities have more expenses, but they have a bigger tax base. But hese cities also order 5-10 apparatus at a time. We have been trying to replace just one for two years. Our city has been behind for so long and now with sudden growth it is trying to catch up. Past administration has been satisfied with "status quo" and now we are struggling.

    I understand that there is only so much money to go around and it is a crap shoot on whether you get accepted. Just a bit frustrating to see huge departments get all the cash and departments like mine and san4rd get nothing....

    San4rd...that pumper still runs and pumps...we may auction it off or put it up for bid.....
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  9. #34
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    capstan, are you saying the big cities are getting multiple pieces of apparatus from AFGP? If you are I believe you are incorrect in that assumption. The program only allows "one dip at the well" for apparatus per agency!
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  10. #35
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    No.....not saying that at all....I realize they can only buy one unit per grant....just saying that they seem to be getting the big $$$ for not only the AFG but but the SAFER Also... City of Daytona and City of Miami got them in this round.... My point was that I am struggling to buy one unit and they buy in bulk....Hillsborough County for example buys 8-10 pumpers in one order.

    As far as SAFER goes, it seems some rather large departments are getting money for hiring which tends to verify the rumor that the SAFER was was intended for departments identified as being in "high risk" areas after 9-11. We only asked for 1 person per shift and indicated the city was supporting us by approving an additional person per shift (3 more) to put us at 7, which with mutual aid would have made us compliant with 1710 on about 90% of our calls and we also indicated the city was committed to continuing to gradually increase our staffing as more money was available. So the "indicating supoort from the city" approach did not help us in either case.

    AGAIN.........I realize there is only so much money available and everyone can not get the money........but.......like everyone else I think that we painted a darned good picture for 2 yrs only to get rejected 2x for AFG and also for SAFER.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  11. #36
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    Small note off the subject, but going back to what you bought, a department not far from here bought a 100' rear mount quint for what you paid for your 70'.

    Anywho, to mention the part about putting more money in: I've heard from a small number of reviewers that say they give more credit for offering that. The majority say it takes away from the local funding argument if you say you have more money. Not like a few thousand, but a few folks have tried to say they'd match 50% on a truck and be surprised when they got denied. If someone has that much money available, there's no reason the truck shouldn't have been financed already.

    And in the grand scheme of things, 20 years old is nothing on a truck in the grant world. Annex D puts old at 30 years, and I can't remember the exact number but 40% or so of the first out units in this country are that old. 20 is young.

    SAFER was about a 1 in 20 shot considering 2000 apps and 130 awards. If Patterson was in that bad of a situation if I lived there I would have been livid that the city was staffing their FD so poorly. I would have been livid as a FF in that department. What makes me wonder is their press release mentions putting another company in service per shift. I would have thought that there was more precedence on adding to existing units first. At least that's the way things seemed to read anyway. But if they were missing entire engine companies on first due, that would make a lot of sense.

    So my question is: is the city still paying for their extra man per shift? They promised to add one to whatever award was gotten, so it sounds to me like they want to pay for one no matter what. They committed the money. Hold them to it.

  12. #37
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    bc79er....If I said 20 on the aerial, I made and error....it was built in 1974 and the need to replace is dictated by the fact that it has failed the cdertification test two years running....the first year it was repaired at approx $30K and this year the estimate was $60K....... Bottom line it is UNSAFE....

    Thanks for the intelligent and analytical responses. My frustration is in no way directed at you or KTB9780........

    as far as the cost......well.....the city is cramped and we needed a single axle that would get around and the Chief was adamant about a platform....so we went with the Qunit and chose a platform....2000 GPM pump, 500 gallon tank, full compliment of ground ladders etc...... If we had chose a 95' platform the price was $700k+.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  13. #38
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    Yeah, they ain't cheap by any stretch of the imagination. There's no question single axle can get around a little easier than tandem too.

    31 years old would make the old and high mileage mark for sure, and definitely with failing the certs it's a heck of a case. But going against the odds already mentioned with them giving out high dollar trucks, it is a huge uphill battle. You can have the perfect setup, and all it takes is someone with a 1/10th of a point higher. Doesn't mean there was anything wrong by any means.

    I don't take anything here personally, I think the back and forth is where more people learn the most. Like my favorite saying: you can't think outside the box when you're in it.

  14. #39
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    capstan1, if oyu will contact me offline ( see profile) I would be glad to try and dig deeper into this and see if there was anything in the applciation that we could do to increase your chances.
    Kurt Bradley
    Public Safety Grants Consultant

    "Never Trade Skill for Luck"

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