1. #1
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    Default Why should/should not use a 2" attack line???

    What are the pros and cons of using a 2" attack line? What types of nozzle do you use?(auto, fixed, 1.5" or 2.5", etc.) Are 1.5" couplings always used? What kinds of GPM can be expected? Deployment/manuverability of line with 1 or 2 personel.

    I'm sure I would like to go to a 2" but I need solid info to go to the powers that be with.

    Thanks for the help.

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    2" lines are more hydraulically efficient than 1 3/4" and yet, remain within safe and effective physiological limits for firefighters of 'average' build to lay and advance in towards a working fire.

    RESEARCH REPORT HERE #2/2005

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    Less friction loss and a few extra GPM over a 1.75, but not the power of a 2.5 yet.

    For the little bit of 2" that's in service in this area, the couplings are all 2" locking Storz.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    On my first department we had 2" for all working building fires.

    We used high gallonage/low pressure fogs, but I personally think the 1" tip is the way to go. The reasons for this is the lower nozzle reaction (less work) and higher gallonage than the fog nozzles.

    All of the 2" that I have ever worked with had 1 1/2" threads.

    Just remember, it will give you more punch than an 1 3/4" but not enough to match a 2 1/2".

    A 2 1/2" line should still be pulled for fires in commercial (store) or hi-rise occupancies and for exposure protection!
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Res343cue

    For the little bit of 2" that's in service in this area, the couplings are all 2" locking Storz.

    Thanks for the replies..

    2" stortz!?!? I know I live out in BFE, but I have never herd of that.

    Again, thanks for the info, keep it coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENG1DRIVER
    Thanks for the replies..

    2" stortz!?!? I know I live out in BFE, but I have never herd of that.

    Again, thanks for the info, keep it coming.
    Yup. We've got everything from 1.75" to 4" in this area for Storz connections. Some departments use Storz only on their LDH, some use it for everything. We only use it on LDH and our hard suction.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

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    I'm not tryong to flame you, in fact I'm the naive one here, but how do you know which way is out when the s*?! hits the fan? How widespread is this usage?

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    We run a 1" sb on our 2" line. We run 1 200' and 1 300'. The 200' is for residentials, the 300' we plan for setbacks and an initial commercial under certain circumstances. We looked at a 2" immediately, backed by the extending 2-1/2". We didn't want to lengthen the 2-1/2" thats used more frequently to reach the rear of some occupancies.
    If it wouldn't cause havoc on the mutual aid companies, Id run stortz on everything! Fast, no crossed threads, no compartment of adapters.......

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    First, the basic set up for all our engines

    1000 Gallon Tank
    1 150' 1.75" preconnect
    1 200' 1.75" preconnect
    1 400' 2" dead bed
    1 400' 2.5" dead bed

    All our lines are equipped with TFT Combination nozzles rated from 50-300 GPM. Our members are instructed to use a tight or straight stream unless specific conditions warrant otherwise. I won't even entertain the argument of smooth bore solid streams vs fog nozzle straight streams. In all reality, gallon per gallon, they are equally effective, end of story. The only big differences between the two is the required PDP to achieve equal flows. For the typical fire (95%) which occur in private residents the two preconnects usually get the job done. When additional lines are necassary the 2" is a great option. The 2" line also makes a great back up as we always back up with and equal or bigger line. With the 2" this becomes much easier without going to the more labor intensive 2.5". The 2" line has many good points. It is nearly as easy to handle as the 1.75" line but at equal lenghts and PDP will flow ~20%-30% more gpm, or, will match the flow of a ~100' shorter 1.75" line. With our set up of 2" hose in a 400' dead bed we have a lot of flexability. We also carry an extra nozzle so we can get 2 200' 2" lines off one engine if necessary. All and all a great addition to the toolbox by providing a midsize attack line to fit between the work horse 1.75" and the bulky large caliber 2.5". As many have said, though, it still does not replace the need for the 2.5".

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    A 2 1/2" line should still be pulled for fires in commercial (store) or hi-rise occupancies and for exposure protection!
    Agreed Nate.

    A 2" handline is a good tool as long as it's used within its operational limits and not to replace a 2-1/2 when high flows are required.

    Stay Safe
    Last edited by tjsnys; 12-16-2005 at 11:29 AM.

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    when I started in the fire service (all the way back in 1998), we were using 1 1/2 inch hose as our attack line. then sometimes along the way we switched up to 1 3/4 inch hose, because it can flow a lot more water than the 1 1/2 inch. now my new department uses 2 inch hose for all its attack lines, for various reason.

    my unscientific conclusion?

    the bigger the hose, the more water you can get out of it.

    also, it's better to use a bigger hose, because you can flow more water out of it then you can a smaller one. and we all know that you need big water to put out big fires.

    I'm not saying anything bad about the larger hose, but when i design a 5 inch nozzle with stortz fitting, I'm going to make a killing in the market. I'm just trying to decide if I should make it a fog or a smoothbore
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENG1DRIVER

    I'm sure I would like to go to a 2" but I need solid info to go to the powers that be with.

    Thanks for the help.
    Just a little advise, don’t say that too loud around the powers that be.


    How much flow are you looking for?
    What is the status of the truck’s plumbing that will supply the 2”? Is it 1-1/2” pipe and valvles?
    What flows are you obtaining now?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrParsite
    I'm not saying anything bad about the larger hose, but when i design a 5 inch nozzle with stortz fitting, I'm going to make a killing in the market. I'm just trying to decide if I should make it a fog or a smoothbore
    I will build it if you will hold on to it! LOL

    Stay Safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriTownship600

    How much flow are you looking for?
    What is the status of the truck’s plumbing that will supply the 2”? Is it 1-1/2” pipe and valvles?
    What flows are you obtaining now?

    Stay Safe

    Thats one of my questions, what can be expected out of a typical 2".

    It's probably 1.5", but I'll check later.

    125 GPM at best.


    Thanks for all the help guys.

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    Plumbing is one of our problems. Too many turns and such. We loose a lot before it ever makes it to the hose.

    I would bet you can do a lot better with the hose you have now. The first thing I would do is to check your nozzle. Automatics need adjusted from time to time. If you use fixed or adjustable type make sure they are rated for your desired flows. We have a few old ones that are only 95 gpm.

    Next I would check the pressure while flowing at the nozzle. Make sure you are running the recommended pressure. With our pump at 150 psi, we have only 95 at the nozzle. We tried some high performance 1.75” that measures almost 2.0” and had only marginal improvement. The tests were done using calibrated test equipment. I don’t remember exactly what we had but it was around 175 gpm with our existing hose. Enough that you want both hands on the hose when you open it.

    For us, more flow means dragging out the 2.5”. We can flow over 500 gpm with that beast.

    Stay Safe

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    My volly Fd has been using 2 inch hose for a while now, 8 or 10 years at least. We like it are buying more for when out new engine arrives and see now reason to change.

    We use an Elkhart 200 gpm at 75 psi break a part combo nozzle with a 1 1/4" slug tip. We flow from 160 gpm at 55 pis at the tip to 200 at 75 to around 290 with the slug at 40 psi. Our preconnects vary in length from 100 to 300 feet in length. Anything over that gets the appartment line which is 500 feet of dead lay 3 inch attached to a gated wye and then 100 feet of 2 inch. A second bundle of 2 inch is available but not carried attached.

    Clearly if we are flowing 290 gpm with our 2 inch hose 2 1/2 inch handline flows are possible. We move this line with 2 people and if we need the 290 out of the slug we get in position and then kneel or sit on the hose to flow it.

    My FD doesn't have any 1 3/4 inch or 2 1/2 inch line on our pumpers. We have 1 inch forestry hose, 2 inch handlines, 3 inch for supplying the appartment line or our portable deluge and 5 inch for supplying the pump. It has worked for us and amazingly it has ended taking the wrong size line!!

    FyredUp

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    2" hose is a real plus if you run short crews of 3 like we did until recently (now four person staffing acros the board ) .
    2 1/2 " lines are not really an option for two ff's to operate in an attack mode, but those same two can flow 180-200 gpm w/ a 2" line. If we had a large commercial that needed a 2 1/2, we would have to combine crews to make it work; sometimes not an option in some volunteer co's.

    We use crosslays of 200' preconnected on top of an addt'l 200' with an Elkhart 250gpm auto nozzle.

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    I'll check with the engineer, but rough figures from elkhart website:
    2" FL apx 30psi per 100', 50psi at tip, 1" smoothbore= 200gpm

    (2x30)+50=110EP

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowtown
    2" hose is a real plus if you run short crews of 3 like we did until recently (now four person staffing acros the board ) .
    2 1/2 " lines are not really an option for two ff's to operate in an attack mode, but those same two can flow 180-200 gpm w/ a 2" line.
    Not trying to be a wise guy, but we get 180 gpm out of 1 3/4 with a 15/16 smoothbore on it. Why drag around 2" ?

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    if you are limiting yourself to 180-200 gpm with 2 inch you are not using the full potential. As I said earlier we can and do flow up to 290 out of ours.

    FyredUp

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    Yes, I stand corrected. The nozzles we use will deliver between 225 and 250 gpm at our standard pressures, using 2" line, vs 180 gpm w/ 1 3/4". We use the same equipment on both sizes of line so we do get the benifit of the bigger line if we need it. We use what they give us and we have very little to say about what type of nozzle we use, so I can't say anything about straight tips - I've never used them.

    I was trying to point out the benifit of the 2" line as it relates to smaller crew size, rather than the exact gpm but I should have checked my #'s first .

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    Why use 2 in. hose with 1 1/2 couplings when you could be using 2 1/2 with 2 1/2 couplings and an 1 1/8 smoothbore nozzle? More bang for the buck, so to speak.
    Never trust a smiling dog.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tillerman17
    Why use 2 in. hose with 1 1/2 couplings when you could be using 2 1/2 with 2 1/2 couplings and an 1 1/8 smoothbore nozzle? More bang for the buck, so to speak.
    Mobility? Speed of deploy? Manpower?

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    Quote Originally Posted by quint1officer
    Mobility? Speed of deploy? Manpower?
    Nah, not buying that answer. 2 1/2 is no harder to deploy or use than 2 in. this is just a common excuse not to use the big line and usually ends with the fire kicking your butt. Manpower is another bad reason not to use the right tool. If manpower is an issue, it's going to be an issue even when you deploy a smaller line. The results are still the same.
    Never trust a smiling dog.
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    I also love to hear people say they dont pull 2.5 because of manpower yet they manage to pull 3- 1-3/4 lines

    I have also used 2" before but prefer the 1-3/4 / 2.5 set up
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
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    Default Just a follow up

    I see some of the most recent posts mention either use a 1.75" or go straight to the 2.5" as if the 2" is ment to replace the 2.5". I gave some thought to that idea for our FD at one point but quickly determined that even thought 2" is a great addition to our arsenal of weapons it is not ment to replace the 2.5". I am a firm believer in hit it hard and fast which usually means big water fast. I won't switch the topic to blitz attack and the method of (deck gun or 2.5" etc etc) but I will say this about the 2.5" vs 2": The 2.5" is going to be heavier, more combersome and less mauneverable then the 2" with equal staffing. That point cannot be argued. Now that does not mean a well trained and physically fit crew of 2-3 FF cannot place a 2.5" into operation in an effective manner just that it will be more difficult to operate and advance then the 2" line. From my perspective I like the 2.5" as an exterior blitz attack line for areas I cannot reach with the deck gun. For example, take a 2-3 car attached garage heavily involved on arrival. If I cannot position my first due to effectively use its deck gun for a blitz attack then I will use a 2.5" to knock the bulk of the fire down form the exterior and perhaps advance a bit into the garage. Once that line as knocked the bulk of the fire down I would continue into the interior to complete the remainder of extinguishment with either a 1.75" or 2" depending on the particular circumstances of the incident at hand such as size of building and amount of extension etc etc. So to sum it up again I do not consider 2" a replacement to 2.5" but just another tool in the box which provides me we a few more options. The secret to success is choosing the right tool for the job at hand and this is where, it seems to me, many make mistakes by choosing to small a line. Big fire requires big water thus requires big attack line.

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