1. #1
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    Default Book of options in apparatus specing??

    Anyone know of a book or Magazine that shows different ways that apparatus can be configured? It would be nice if someone would take a pic of all the different ways that front bumpers, pump panels, cabinet storage, and cross lays can be configured. It would make it easier when you are trying to spec a truck to know what your options are.
    We just sent specs for a truck that I think will already be changed. We wanted a front bumper with a 1.75" perconnect and a 5" supply line. We were told by one builder that you can only have one, not both. Well I just recenly found a pic of a bumper that has just what we wanted.
    If we could see all the options it would make customizing easier.

    Thanks

    BTW, I do get Fire Apparatus Magazine, but it only has some pics in each month. It would be nice it they put all thoes pics into one issue.

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    What you are asking for is pretty much impossible. There are literally hundreds of configurations for front bumpers, hosebeds, pump enclosures, cab interiors, and everything else in between. Your best bet is to ask several vendors what they have done, go to trade shows, visit departments in your area, read lots of trade magazines, tour a manufacturing facility, etc. Practically every department does something different. Even after you think you did all your "homework" you will find something that will make you ask "why didn't we think of that?". The fire service, as well as the truck committees within it tend to be very creative when it comes to apparatus design. If you had a vendor tell you a front suction and discharge couldn't be done on the same front bumper, run hard and fast away from them! That's as basic as it gets.

    Good luck with your project.

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    Default You want options???

    Here is what it all boils down to:

    YOU WANT IT - YOU GOT IT------JUST BRING DA $$$$$$$$$
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    There is a book on the market called "Fire Apparatus Purchasing Handbook". I am a member of a truck committee that is currently spec'in a new Rescue Unit and I have read this book and found alot of information very useful. If you havent read it, maybe its worth a look. You can order it from many sources but here is a quick link if you like:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/091...books&v=glance

    Good Luck!!

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    We just sent spec's out for bid.

    All you need is some time a broadband internet connection.

    Start by looking at the manufacters pages with new deliveries and go from there.

    You can have everything you, It just takes a little CASH!

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    Content deleted by author.
    Last edited by Firefighter807; 07-08-2009 at 06:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter807
    Quit messing around! We went to Pierce and looked at at lots of rigs and sat down with our rep and spec'd the rig right there.

    Please...get real you didn't spec your rig Pierce did that's why your riding a Pierce. Don't get all tissy. Pierce makes a good product but so do a lot of other manufacturers. The bottom line is if you want options search the net and get pics of what you want. Go to trade shows and take pics. Go to other department's...take pics. Take pics of what you want then sit down with an independent apparatus architect and come up with a good set of spec's and send them out for bid. Good luck...there's a ton of different stuff out there, Good Luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1
    Anyone know of a book or magazine that shows different ways that apparatus can be configured? It would be nice if someone would take a pic of all the different ways that front bumpers, pump panels, cabinet storage, and cross lays can be configured. It would make it easier when you are trying to spec a truck to know what your options are.
    A book or Magazine with all the options, boy that would be nice. The down side is that as soon as it was published it be out dated
    Fire Rescue Magazine is a good source also if you search Firehouse forums you can find a lot of good info on many apparatus options, or post a question, someone will give you an answer or opinion.
    Don’t rush into something you’ll regret later. Take your time, look and talk to other departments and manufactures, be flexible.
    I’m a sutphen fan myself, but don’t let anyone tell you that any one manufacture is the best. Lots of good apparatus builders out there look at as many as possible

    And yes, you can get a 1-3/4 perconnect and a “short” 5" supply line in the bumper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HFD147
    What you are asking for is pretty much impossible.
    You had me confused for a minute until I finished your post. I thought you were referring to the 1.75" and 5" bumper plumbing as being impossible... lol.

    ANYWHO...

    I agree, a complete list of "options" is impossible... there are so many unique features found on apparatus... you can just sample them by utilizing all the resources already mentioned. I can see how you are looking to avoid reinventing the wheel though. This site is a great place to start research, as there are TONS of useful threads on here, many with pictures and links to other sites.

    Don't be afraid to innovate... physics and your budget are the only limiting factors.
    God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
    Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
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    Default Front bumper lines

    Our Pierce engine has a front bin for 30' of 5" supply line next to the front suction just below the officer's seat, and 150' 1.75" hose preconnected between the frame rails. Have your Pierce rep get the blue prints for job #16387.

    Merry Xmas...

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    We were told by one builder that you can only have one, not both
    Find a new builder.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Thanks for all your help,

    What we would really like is a front bumper with two comparments. One comparment would hold 5" supply line(about 30-40'), the other compartment would have 1.75(100-120ft). We would alos like each compartment to have lids on and drop down fronts. This way we can pull the preconnect or supply line straight out of the compartment.
    I believe someone posted a pic of a bumper that had a dropdown compartment. oh, and it will have a Q also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter807
    Quit messing around! We went to Pierce and looked at at lots of rigs and sat down with our rep and spec'd the rig right there.

    If it can be done, they can do it. It it can't be done, they will have the reasons why.

    Some smaller "Mom and Pop" shops may be cheaper or build what you want but in the end, the quality and the support won't be there.

    Pay 'em now or pay 'em later!
    Pierce couldn't build/spec what we wanted for our rescue engine....they have strengths and weeknesses like all manufacturers.

    My advice is to look at as many trucks as possible, deal with companies that will bring demos to your fd, and take trips to a couple factories if at all possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1
    Anyone know of a book or Magazine that shows different ways that apparatus can be configured? It would be nice if someone would take a pic of all the different ways that front bumpers, pump panels, cabinet storage, and cross lays can be configured. It would make it easier when you are trying to spec a truck to know what your options are.
    We just sent specs for a truck that I think will already be changed. We wanted a front bumper with a 1.75" perconnect and a 5" supply line. We were told by one builder that you can only have one, not both. Well I just recenly found a pic of a bumper that has just what we wanted.
    If we could see all the options it would make customizing easier.

    Thanks

    BTW, I do get Fire Apparatus Magazine, but it only has some pics in each month. It would be nice it they put all thoes pics into one issue.
    Pierce, right ?

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    We wanted a front bumper with a 1.75" perconnect and a 5" supply line. We were told by one builder that you can only have one, not both.
    Talk to somebody else. We told our builder that we wanted a front bumper with two 200' 2" CAFS attack lines, a pre-connected full-size hydraulic cutter, pre-connected spreader, hand tools, a deck gun, and an electronic siren and real Q to boot.

    Guess what? They're giving us exactly what we asked for - all in a 24" extended bumper.


    As far as the book is concerned - everybody is telling that it would be impossible, and it would be. But it would be very possible and very helpful for many spec committees to have a book with a few hundred pages of color photographs of numerous (just not every) potential configurations for everthing from front bumpers and pre-connect beds to cab layouts and compartment styles.

    I know where you're coming from - that could be a tremendous resource to spec committees that don't have the priveledge of traveling the country attending shows and visiting firehouses or a 10-year archive of Firehouse, Fire Rescue, Fire Chief, Fire Engineering, Fire Apparatus Magazine, and Fire Apparatus Journal.

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    BlitzfireSolo

    Please post a pic of that front bumper when you get that rig. What size deck gun?

    I think a lot of the time, many apparatus commities need some ideas on what to spec. That is why I suggested a book of pics. Ill bet many, espically the small rural departments, dont know all of the options that they could have. One of our committe members saw a pic of what we wanted and said, "Gee I wished I had saw that before we wrote the spec".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo
    Talk to somebody else. We told our builder that we wanted a front bumper with two 200' 2" CAFS attack lines, a pre-connected full-size hydraulic cutter, pre-connected spreader, hand tools, a deck gun, and an electronic siren and real Q to boot.

    Guess what? They're giving us exactly what we asked for - all in a 24" extended bumper.
    Who is the builder. If it is Rosenbauer/Central States watch out you don't get shafted. They are famous for making promises they can't or won't keep. Regardless, I would like to see a picture of that when it is done. I am curious how they are doing it. With the frame rails coming through to the front, that would give you in theory 3 hose wells or compartment locations. Then you have the top side of the bumper extension. I am wondering how high everything will get. Wouldn't this cause a problem with air flow through the radiator. If it works, great!!

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    Wouldn't this cause a problem with air flow through the radiator.
    With the upcoming EPA changes it might really hamper us in designing multi-functional bumpers. We were told to keep an eye on our engine temp if we had the lid up on ours (pic in the front bumper pic thread) for an extended period since TX tends to get a little warm in the summer. Which is why we put the combie tool up there, since it's mainly a tool for a quick door pop or something, it's the easiest to get out and git-r-done without having to pull from the side compartments. Extended ops were probably dealing with the bigger tools and can drop the lid down if it's a problem, but we haven't had one yet.

    Plus with the extended bumper the lid is still a decent amount away from the radiator so there's plenty of room for flow. There was no we they would have let us do it with a smaller bumper, it would have been too close.

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    Firefighter807...Pierce is no more the answer to EVERYONE's truck needs than any other manufacturer is. Honestly when I see you post over and over about how marvelous Pierce is I have one of 2 thoughts, this guy works for Pierce or he is another whacker who loves a name plate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter807
    Quit messing around! We went to Pierce and looked at at lots of rigs and sat down with our rep and spec'd the rig right there.

    If it can be done, they can do it. It it can't be done, they will have the reasons why.

    Some smaller "Mom and Pop" shops may be cheaper or build what you want but in the end, the quality and the support won't be there.

    Pay 'em now or pay 'em later!
    We just signed an order for a rescue pumper, we talked to Pierce, Seagrave, Elite Power Products, Toyne, Custom Fire, Darley, and Ahreans Fox/HME. With a few exceptions EVERYONE could build what we wanted. Pierce came in at over $100K over budget, Seagrave said sure we can build it, but not for the money you have, one builder said sure but we will use a lesser grade of stainless steel, one had an agenda for body material and foamn systems, one said if you bid it we aren't interested, another one came in over budget by $20K, one said sure we can do that and they are.

    You can spout all you want about Pierce and others about their favorite brand, and if you believe that Pierce has never built a lemon then you do work for them or you are a whacker. Ever hear of all steer? Honestly, the quality of a new fire truck is mostly dependant on the specifications and the conferences between the buyer and the manufacturer. No matter how much I tried to tell the local Pierce guy that we had XXX to spend he went on and on about engineering and materials and blah, blah, blah. That's great, so can you drop the price $100K? Right.

    Now...

    For Ledebuhr1. We had a committee that set up a rough basic spec of what we wanted. We did research. We went to shows, we talked to ou5r neighboring FD's, we searched online and THEN we went to the manufacturers with our wish list to see who could do it. For the most part everyonme could build what we wanted. the major differences came in materials, chassis, engine size, cost and delivery time.

    If you talk to 3 or 4 manufacturers and they ALL tell you something can't be done...maybe it's time to find out why and look in another direction for how to accomplish what you want. I would be very cautious if only 1 said they could do it.

    Good Luck,

    FyredUp

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    Talk to somebody else. We told our builder that we wanted a front bumper with two 200' 2" CAFS attack lines, a pre-connected full-size hydraulic cutter, pre-connected spreader, hand tools, a deck gun, and an electronic siren and real Q to boot.
    I have to agree with Yankee. Way to much gear up front. I can see the 2" maybe a speaker and the "q" if mounted in the grill or underneath. But the rest I doubt it.

    Get an engineer plan and drawing of the bumper to include the equipment. Make them show you how it is going to be done first.

    Little skepticle on this.

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    Default Front Bumper Designs

    As the saying goes "you can have anything you want for $$" However does it work or safe in the long run. MaNy of the OEM's have a variety of designs and configurations based on everyone's got their own needs...

    Firstly, there are a lot of combinations as to front bumper extensions and designs but you do have to consider the airflow to the radiator so this affects how high your bumper storage compartment lids are. This is going to be the responsibility of the OEM because if there is a engine cooling issue the engine manufacturer isn't going to necessarily warrant any repairs if a failure occurs.

    Secondly, I did see the Rosenbauer "Tour 2005" trucks and saw one with two full width hosewells for 1-3/4" hose. So I posed the question to the chassis builder " Did you allow the OEM to notch out the top rail to allow the full width hosewell to set in low across the width because I was concerned about the front impact ability of the frame horns/bumper with the top cut out.
    I was told "No we didn't know they did that and wouldn't sanction it either...

    Thirdly, as to the drop down access I would then also question the safety of doing it for again a frontal impact situation because you sure aren't going to have much front bumper strength left..

    I agree with CaptainS get the OEM to draw up the design configuration with all the measurements and if possible show the features you want included and by seeing it you might decide "nah we don't need all that clutter" or find it's not as practical as once thought or it might be exactly what you want but take into account the considerations above.

    Good Luck

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    Thirdly, as to the drop down access I would then also question the safety of doing it for again a frontal impact situation because you sure aren't going to have much front bumper strength left..
    Since the bumper is just a thin piece of metal covering the frame rails for looks, there's not much impact resistance there anyway. I agree with there being a problem if the frame rails have pieces missing, but in ours they aren't, so there is no change in frontal impact safety. Bumpers are meant to crumple, so lids, dropdown fronts, airhorns, and sirens being cut in won't mean anything anyway. Other than costing more to fix since it's custom made. The safety factor isn't affected.

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    We can help if your still in the process. You can do "almost" anything if you know how to write the spec. Give us a call 866-843-1075 or visit our website: www.ewfac.com

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    Post What He Say

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter807
    Folks - you can't get a Chevy engine in a Ford truck with a Dodge bed and expect it to function harmoniously and be priced like a F-150. Line up with your manufacturer of choice and have them build you a nice rig. By not having a bunch of unique custom features (that drive up cost) you actually increase reliability and drive down the cost of the rig. I am of the belief that simpler is better. And the less gadgets we put on these things the more reliable they are.

    If you mish mash a spec of your own together you are taking chances. We learned a long time ago, tell your dealer WHAT you need the rig to do. Let them tell you HOW they will accomplish your goals. And then come to an agreement on fit and function.

    YOU may need "Good Luck" to get YOUR morphidite to function. I am a Ford Truck Man and a Pierce Fire Truck Fan!

    Merry Christmas!

    YA RIGHT, LET THEM BUILD IT, WE HAVE A 109 FT FERRARA LADDER TRUCK THAT THE SO-CALLED MANUFACTURER SAID WOULD BE MORE THEN ENOUGH POWER FOR THE TRUCK. IT HAS A CUMMINS ISC 350. ON A 11% GRADE IT GO'S ABOUT 6.8 MPH. NOT TO GOOD IF YOUR AREA IS ALL UP HALL. THAT DEMO SHORE RAN GOOD (SINGLE AXLE ENG WITH ON WATER OR EQUIPMENT) ALMOST 40MPH UP TO SAME HILL, WITH THE SAME MOTER. THIS IS NOT A SHOT AT FERRARA, WE AGREED TO IT. DO YOUR HOME WORK AND TALK TO AN ENGINE MANUFACTURER OR SOMEBODY THAT KNOW ABOUT DRIVETRAINS. (KENWORTH,PETERBUILT,FREIGHTLINER,) LIVE AND LEARN. KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE. REMEMBER THEY DO ALMOST ANYTHING TO SELL YOU THERE TRUCK IT'S YOURS IN THE END. PAY NOW OR PAY ALOT LATER.

    IF YOU HAVE HILLS LIKE OUR COMPANY, REMEMBER TO LOOK FOR TORQUE NOT HOURSEPOWER.

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