FDC & Large Diameter Hose

[mwtetreault]

Everyone:
I am curious what other depts are using for Fire Department connections. Our community has recently started requiring 4" storz connections. What is your department requiring on new sprinkler/standpipe systems and why?
Mark

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

New construction: 4 inch FDC's, because we went to 4" LDH a couple of years ago. We carry adapters for the standard 2.5" FDC's.

[F52Westside]

Our township requires 4" stortz on all new construction, and I think on extensive remodels. Don't know the reason for the requirement.

[rjk001]

Everyone:
I am curious what other depts are using for Fire Department connections. Our community has recently started requiring 4" storz connections. What is your department requiring on new sprinkler/standpipe systems and why?
Mark

They are cheaper than the old FDC.
Less friction loss = more water
But only one hose what if it breaks?

[1OLDTIMER]

You may want to look at this thread before you decide on LDH at all.

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...537#post979537

[BoxAlarm187]

2.5" FDC's are still the norm in our jurisdiction, although a handful of occupancies have installed 5" FDC's to match the LDH we carry.

I prefer the 2.5" FDC for a couple of reasons. First, several of the 5" FDC's don't have any tension release (i.e. 30-degree elbow) built into them, so the entire weight of the 5" being pulled up to the FDC itself. This can cause premature separation of the hose from the swivel with enough weight and/or time, and obviously presents a safety hazard.

The other reason is the limited operating pressure of the 5" LDH we carry (185psi). If we're going to a multi-story building that requires higher pressures to meet the fire conditions, nozzle selection, or any other factor, I would hate to think that the line I have supplying the FDC from my pumper would be the limiting factor in water availability.

As RJK said, there is redundancy in having the 2nd 2.5" line on a standard FDC too.

[mcaldwell]

2.5" FDC's are still the norm in our jurisdiction, although a handful of occupancies have installed 5" FDC's to match the LDH we carry.

I prefer the 2.5" FDC for a couple of reasons. First, several of the 5" FDC's don't have any tension release (i.e. 30-degree elbow) built into them, so the entire weight of the 5" being pulled up to the FDC itself. This can cause premature separation of the hose from the swivel with enough weight and/or time, and obviously presents a safety hazard..

Sure, but solved easily enough with a $100 adapter. Most of our LDH inlets are less than 18-24 inches off the ground though, so there are only a couple of feet suspended.

The other reason is the limited operating pressure of the 5" LDH we carry (185psi). If we're going to a multi-story building that requires higher pressures to meet the fire conditions, nozzle selection, or any other factor, I would hate to think that the line I have supplying the FDC from my pumper would be the limiting factor in water availability.

Good point, and also easily solved. I have ordered up some 250psi LDH for just this role (and for supplying the triple 2.5 manifold on an extended attack scenario). We keep a couple of short 50' rolls in the engineers compartment so they can be rolled out to the FDC when needed. It is still engineers choice around here.

If you have true High-Rise construction (i.e. more than our 6-7 storey limit) and anticipate needing more than 250-300PSI, you would certainly need to reconsider using your LDH. It seems like most high-rise depts use low pressure nozzles or smooth bores to overcome that challenge.

As RJK said, there is redundancy in having the 2nd 2.5" line on a standard FDC too.

Can't argue that, but the time savings in rolling out a single 100 length of LDH is very nice when you are manpower limited. I think it is dept preference, and I don't think we can argue for or against either technique that definitively.

[BoxAlarm187]

You make some excellent points. I'll address each of them individually...

As for the adapters, you're correct about that. This will take a change of the county ordinance to get the contractor to take care of installing these. The FD isn't going to spring for the adapter when they feel it's the responsibility of the developer and/or occupant to supply it.

High-pressure LDH is an option also. In the interest of standardization, our department buys each size of hose the same (be it 1.75", 2.5" 3", etc), so I don't know if that's going to work for us. I commend your department for thinking forward on this matter.

As for the nozzles, we're carrying 50PSI breakaway nozzles that most people operate (and rightfully so, IMHO) with the fog nozzle taken off. This does obviously keep us from needing that extra 50PSI through the FDC supply hose, but there may be a chance for extra long stretches in some occupancies. Just thinking ahead on that...

You're also right about manpower and it's effect in estabishing a flow to a FDC. I didn't want to appear to come across that 2.5" is the only way, I was simply giving some thoughts on what I've seen work in my particular locality. I again thank you for taking the time to post some well-constructed thoughts.

[MG3610]

I don't understand the point of 5" FDC's versus double or triple 2 1/2's. You can move a few hundred GPM through short single lays of 3" hose. Its easier to drag, and not so hard to move when charged. It seems like the storz connection on FDC's is becoming the new in vogue idea, maybe I'm missing the major advantage, but I just don't see it.

[1OLDTIMER]

I don't understand the point...maybe I'm missing the major advantage, but I just don't see it.

I think you're right...and you understand that when anything NEW comes along...some just MUST have it, and will go at any length to justify it...AFTER they've bought it.

[BoxAlarm187]

I think you're right...and you understand that when anything NEW comes along...some just MUST have it, and will go at any length to justify it...AFTER they've bought it.

What innovations in the fire service DO you support, Old Timer?

[1OLDTIMER]

What innovations in the fire service DO you support, Old Timer?

Not LDH. I think seatbelts, enclosed cabs, SCBA, improved PPE, and automatic dishwashers in the [station] kitchens are great innovations.
- - - - - - - - - - -
It is obvious that there is a large generation gap here, and no matter what I think and say will be agreeable. That's why they pay me to stay at home, away from the crowds. Stay safe and you will experience this too... before your past-time is up here on planet earth.

[mcaldwell]

I think you're right...and you understand that when anything NEW comes along...some just MUST have it, and will go at any length to justify it...AFTER they've bought it.

And sometimes it justifies itself.

When we switched to LDH for our various supply roles, we were amazed at how much better and easier it worked. Our pumper worked half as hard and did twice the work overnight.

Mind you we started with an old undersized and overworked pumper and a marginal hydrant system, so we saw the benefits day one. Larger pumpers might not see the need or benefit on day to day ops. At least until they start needing that kind of water.

Once you get past the arguement that "The hose is heavy", LDH just makes life easier.

[BoxAlarm187]

And sometimes it justifies itself.

When we switched to LDH for our various supply roles, we were amazed at how much better and easier it worked. Our pumper worked half as hard and did twice the work overnight.

Once you get past the arguement that "The hose is heavy", LDH just makes life easier.

Excellent points. This is the reason we went to LDH at work 15 years ago, and we're going to transition to it at the VFD next year. More water, less friction loss, less work at the pump ... and yes, it can be moved if you know how.

[1OLDTIMER]

Wrong thread...moved post:

[txgp17]

My Dept's Fire Prevention Bureau starting allowing (and encouraging I think) commercial occupancies to install 4" Storz FDC's.

My Dept uses double jacketed 4" LDH, service tested to 300 psi.

A while back I saw one from the street that looked too big. Turns out it was 5". And it was just two buildings down from the Fire Prevention Bureau offices. If we'd had a fire we'd be screwed as we don't carry 4"-5" adapters. A few companies have them, but only a handful.

I think going with 4" was a mistake. At flows above 1,000 GPM the friction loss makes long lays impractical, unless you're using 2,000 GPM two stage pumps.

[InsuranceLCRep]

This is a case of one size fits all does not work. LDH for a FDC is over kill in may occupancies because the automatic sprinkler demands are so low. Take a look at what NFPA 13, The Installation Of Sprinkler System requires for a sprinkler system in the following occupancies:

Light Hazard .10/1500 or about 150 gpm

Occupancies with Quantity/combustibility low
ow rates of heat release
Churches
Clubs
Offices
Museums
Residential
Restaurant seating areas

Ordinary Group 1 .15/1500 or about 225 gpm

Occupancies with
Low to moderate amount of combustibles
Moderate rates of heat release
Storage less than 8 feet
Automobile parking and showrooms
Beverage manufacturing
Laundries
Restaurant service areas


Ordinary, Group 2 .20/1500 or about 300 gpm

Occupancies with Moderate combustible load

Moderate rates of heat release
Storage less than 12 feet high
Dry cleaners
Mercantile
Printing and publishing
Wood products
Machining and assembly

Can you feed these occupancies with one or two 2.5" or 3" hose?

[devaE2]

Just for clarification - all of you that are having to pump to 4" Storz FDCs - are all your engines set up with large diameter discharges? If not - how are you setting up to feed the FDC?

Thanks,
Mike

[FWDbuff]

5" storz here with a 30 degree elbow.

[mcaldwell]

Just for clarification - all of you that are having to pump to 4" Storz FDCs - are all your engines set up with large diameter discharges? If not - how are you setting up to feed the FDC?

Thanks,
Mike

Only one of our ladders has a 4" discharge, and it is only used for relay pumping. We usually discharge through a 2 1/2" port.

You can often feed your pump capacity (i.e. <1500gpm) through a good 2 1/2" discharge into a short lay of 4" hose. Considering you only need to push a few hundred gpm's into most FDC's, the standard discharge is more than adequate. Particularly with the reduced FL of the LDH.