1. #26
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    YIKES.........Am I glad I live in Wisconsin.......all we have to worry about here is cow @#*% and beer farts!!!!


    Hey FyredUp........may I ask price of that rig???

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    [QUOTE=Firefighter1244]YIKES.........Am I glad I live in Wisconsin.......all we have to worry about here is cow @#*% and beer farts!!!!

    Sounds like Texas
    most of our farts come from the Mexican food thou.
    chased down by a few cold .....
    "Go Horns"

  3. #28
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    I Live in Wisconsin and we were forced to pay prevailing wage rates on both our new station construction - The Municipality got into some hot water when it was thought they did not pay it for the new Library.

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    Default Bids

    Ordered new pumper in Oct 2005. Rosenbauer got the order, excepted delivery July 2006.

    Pierce dealer stated that the truck we spec'ed could not be done. Rosenbauer said they could do it with no problem, also the next was price. Pierce shot a bid of $370,000 for truck alone that could not be built. Rosenbauer $260,000 per the spec's given.

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    Did Pierce say why it couldent be built? When there is such a huge difference in bids somtimes it makes you wonder if they thought it might have a lot of warranty claims based on the spec, so they bid really high so they wouldent get the job.

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    Firefighter1244

    Cost is roughly $255K.

    FyredUp

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1
    Did Pierce say why it couldent be built? When there is such a huge difference in bids somtimes it makes you wonder if they thought it might have a lot of warranty claims based on the spec, so they bid really high so they wouldent get the job.
    The cost of a ( Seagrave & Pierce ) chassis is around $ 200,000 and spartan Advantage is in the $ 150,000 range !

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    Why does it cost $50k more for a Pierce than Spartan? does the Pierce offer that much more to justify the cost? That is quite a difference. Would that be for a Pierce Dash, Lance? prabally not the Quantum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1
    Why does it cost $50k more for a Pierce than Spartan? does the Pierce offer that much more to justify the cost? That is quite a difference. Would that be for a Pierce Dash, Lance? prabally not the Quantum.
    The " Pierce Dash Chassis " with a 430-515 HP engine & 4000EVS Trans would cost $ 200,000 . the only chassis from Pierce that is low cost would be the " Contender " Saber cab & chassis with 330 HP & 3000 EVS trans, 10.25" frame rails - vs- 13.00" on the other models from Pierce!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    10.25" frame rails - vs- 13.00" on the other models from Pierce!
    That is 10.125 and 13.125.
    FTM - PTB

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    appropo of nothing, but I've seen several specs here for 400 hp engines and 3000evs trannies. Isn't that kinda on the edge of the envelope for that tranny? I've heard the rule of thumb was that when you get to/exceed 400 hp to step up to the 4000 series tranny.

    when we bid our rescue engine, the initial quotes were all over the map from around 200,000 (ferrara) to 325,000 (seagrave)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfd3501
    appropo of nothing, but I've seen several specs here for 400 hp engines and 3000evs trannies. Isn't that kinda on the edge of the envelope for that tranny? I've heard the rule of thumb was that when you get to/exceed 400 hp to step up to the 4000 series tranny.

    when we bid our rescue engine, the initial quotes were all over the map from around 200,000 (ferrara) to 325,000 (seagrave)
    Look at the torque ratings on the two trannies then the torque on the motor used. I am looking at that very thing on an engine we are trying to get. You can get a 330hp Cummins in multiple motors, the difference is the torque each will put out. Most are in the 800-950 ft lbs, then jump to 1000 to 1200 ft lbs then jump to 1250 to 1500 ft lbs. Difference is ISC vs. ISL vs. ISM.


    http://www.allisontransmission.com/d.../specs_EVS.pdf


    http://www.everytime.cummins.com/eve...tions/fire.jsp
    Last edited by ChiefDog; 01-11-2006 at 01:09 PM.

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    Not custom but will bite on this.

    our district just awarded a contract for 3 engines to General Fire they are the local Central States dealer. a little over 180k each.

    Based on our support and reliability of previous Central States units this decision was a no brainer ( and yes I said reliability in the same phrase as Central States )

    PDF Drawing here. http://www.generalfire.com/Trucks/Ne...mpertender.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    We are getting an Ahreans Fox and in my opinion getting far more truck than you are speccing for less money.
    NO FREAKIN WAY is any HME product ever going to be more truck for less. Mark the date you take delivery on a calender and tally the nickels and dimes. I'm familiar with quite a few HME products (1 intimately) and all are JUNK!!! Rust after 2 years, wiring harness fires, screws falling out everywhere, poor workmanship, etc. Also, see what you end up with, it wouldn't be the first time they said they could build you a truck and shown up with options missing because the engineers said they couldn't be done.

    BTC3205: "Pierce dealer stated that the truck we spec'ed could not be done. Rosenbauer said they could do it with no problem, also the next was price."

    Check out the White Plains, NY FORD/SMEAL rear mount ladder. Another truck that reputable builders said couldn't, shouln't and wouldn't build. What a junk! Wouldn't fit in the house! Sometimes you gotta wonder why some one says it can't or shouldn't be done. Others willleave you to your devices and build what you want, whether it works or not. It's not like Rosenbuaer has to worry about tarnishing their good name, they'll just buy another one.

    Lastly, who besides Seagrave is a Union Shop? Not Peirce, Not E-On, Not ALF... I guess whatever Seagrave pays make the prevailing wage?

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    I thought I was told that Pierce WAS a union shop?!?!

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    I think that ( E-One , American Lafrance ) are non-union like most vehicle builders from the " South "

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    RFDACM...

    I am sorry that you have had such difficulties with your HME chassied fire trucks. My first question to you would be who built the fire apparatus bodies? Unless they were built in the last couple of years they were not Ahreans Fox bodies. If the problem is with the chassis and cab then it would be an HME problem, if it is with wiring, and screws falling out, and poor workmanship of the fire body and it wasn't completely built by Ahreans Fox then it is not an HME problem.

    The career FD I am on has 4 HME chassied rigs, 2 pumpers, a quint and a straight stick. The majority of any problems we have had with these vehicles is due to the fire apparatus body manufacturer and not HME. And unfortunately for us ALF bought out the manufacturer then closed them so we have no recourse to get the fire body repaired.

    We have a specification and the manufacturer will follow it or detail exceptions that we will have to decide if we will accept or not. If in the preconstruction conference it comes out that they can't build what they signed a contract saying they would we will walk away. Just as I would if Pierce or Seagrave or (Gag) E-One got the bid. By the way no one told us they couldn't build what we wanted. They did tell us it would cost more than we had in some cases and others just simply didn't offer everything that Ahreans Fox did.

    IF you accepted a fire apparatus that didn't meet your specs is it the manufacturer's fault or YOURS? Honestly, if this pumper doesn't come in meeting the specs the delivery tech is gonna have a long ride home in the same one he tried to deliver.

    I will agree with one thing you said...if all the builders, except for one, say something can't be done...odds are they are right and you will be getting a morphodite piece of garbage.

    FyredUp

    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    NO FREAKIN WAY is any HME product ever going to be more truck for less. Mark the date you take delivery on a calender and tally the nickels and dimes. I'm familiar with quite a few HME products (1 intimately) and all are JUNK!!! Rust after 2 years, wiring harness fires, screws falling out everywhere, poor workmanship, etc. Also, see what you end up with, it wouldn't be the first time they said they could build you a truck and shown up with options missing because the engineers said they couldn't be done.

    BTC3205: "Pierce dealer stated that the truck we spec'ed could not be done. Rosenbauer said they could do it with no problem, also the next was price."

    Check out the White Plains, NY FORD/SMEAL rear mount ladder. Another truck that reputable builders said couldn't, shouln't and wouldn't build. What a junk! Wouldn't fit in the house! Sometimes you gotta wonder why some one says it can't or shouldn't be done. Others willleave you to your devices and build what you want, whether it works or not. It's not like Rosenbuaer has to worry about tarnishing their good name, they'll just buy another one.

    Lastly, who besides Seagrave is a Union Shop? Not Peirce, Not E-On, Not ALF... I guess whatever Seagrave pays make the prevailing wage?

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    I'm with Fyredup on HME. We have an all HME engine next to no problems what so ever with it we have had it a little over 2 years (sept 2003) (wiring for flashers came disconnected in transit and windshield got smacked by a rock in transit).

    We also have a HME/Central States Quint (2000) a couple of minor problems with it but that was Central's fault not HME's and was taken care of promptly.

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    99% of our issues have been with the HME chassis. Yes, we speeced it because it was the only way to move from a commercial cab to a cab over four seater. The body was made by Central States. This part is not great but no major issues other than improperly mounting all the flowmeters. Who knew that you had to tell them you wanted them to follow the FRC's instructions for installing the flow sensors? I guess we took for granted that a "reputable" builder would install them correctly. Never again. Specs now are very specific. No the originals did not ahvve anything that would have prevented them from installing them correctly. Subsequently the flow meters are off and cannot be calibrated accurately, which by the way control the direct injection class A foam system. As for HME chassis issues:

    1. main wiring harness is exposed to road dirt, salt, slush, etc. causing many issues.

    2. screws holding door panel on (in cab) always falling out. Once a week they must be tightened. This is now an assigned task.

    3. Grab handle ripped out of officers side door way. (this might have been asking a lot given the officer who was on the other end when it failed)

    4. Rust. 2 years into it and major rust. And the truck is rinsed after every call and washed very frequently.

    5. In dash wiring fire. Crew reprimanded for rapid extinguishment!

    6. Headlights are no better than candles. Adjusted, re-adjusted. Just s**k!

    Hey, but its not all bad. It's a pretty red! Oh, maybe we specced that?

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    One of the fire districts in our township has a 2004 Spartan/E-one pumper that cost $ 425,00 and they have the same type problems with there cab , & E-one compartment doors, so every builder has a few " Lemons "

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    As I said earlier, we own one but I know of three other in our area with the same types of problems. One was 10 years old and needed a complete cab/chassis overhaul as it rusted out and the wiring was pretty much a nightmare. Sure I'll give you everyone has issues. And everyone will probably have more with all the mandated electronic gizmos and gadgets. The days of a 25 year engine are gone brothers.With all the garbagemeant to keep us safe, a new engine that was run daily and checked per scheduled maintenance will probably not last 25 years as electronics and electrical issues tend to occur without rhyme or reason. As I said, we've have ahd bad luck with HME and will not buy another. I wouldn't expect anyone else to learn from our mistakes, just as we didn't heed those before us. But this forum is a perfect medium to find out was issues have been seen, as long as you can weed out the Peirce Whacker BS!

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    Wow, alot of bidders came to the party. Was this specification written around a specific manufacturer? Your apparatus committee has alot of work to do. I would CLOSELY review each bidders PROPOSAL specification and match it up to your BID specification. Make sure you are truly getting what you have specified. My department had a bid opening for a pumper about six years ago and had three bidders. We did write the bid specifications around a specific Mfr. Well the "other" two bidders were way below the "chosen one". One bidder only listed about 20 exceptions/clarifications. When we compared the bid specifications against their "proposal specifications, we found an additional 15 items that were not listed. REMEMBER - the manufacturer is going to build the apparatus based on THEIR PROPOSAL specification, NOT your bid document.

    Good luck!!

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    There is a lot of interesting conversation going on here. The department that I run with has a 2003 KME mini pumper/ brush unit. This was featured on KME's web site for a while. The problems is that there are problems. The unit has failed on multiple occasions. They (KME) decided that a 2wd ford chassis would be best with an after market (KME) 4 wd. This makes putting the pump in gear nothing short of rocket science. I believe that it is 9 steps total. The generator has failed twice, a cabinet door fell off. The reason that I'm saying this is KME was the only bidder, all others said that it can't be built as spec'd. Lesson learned I guess.

    The last truck that we spec'd was a 1500 gpm pumper that everyone said they could build. That gaves us the warm fuzzy feeling.

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    Ffmedic1006,

    Remember when you bought the KME, you are Keeping Mechanics Employed.

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    We bought a Spartan Gladiator/Central States engine a little over a year ago. We are very happy with the cab and chassis. We are happy with the body, the set up of it that is. But we custom designed the body to fit us. Some problems with it. The biggest question I would think would be is how far away is the service center. Central states (Rosnebauer) had a repair facility in Worcester Mass that had opened up a couple weeks before we picked up our new truck. They would send one of there two guys up if we had any problems. Well, they closed the repair facility and the repair guys went to work for another company. Now we have to bring our truck over to NH to get repaired instead of having them come here.

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