1. #1
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    Post Custom Pumper Bids!

    We received sealed bids for a 1500 gpm pumper apparatus from 7 builders, here are the results : Seagrave Marader -$ 327,000 Pierce Enforcer - $ 299,000 E-one Typhoon - $ 290,000 Sutphen Sheids - $ 275,000 KME Excel - $ 270,000 ALF Metro - $ 269,000 Central States Spartan Advantage _ $ 260,000. Please list any type of new fire apparatus that your fire department awarded bids on this past year !!
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 01-03-2006 at 07:27 PM.

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    WOW that is quite a range in price. From $327k to $260k. Did any of the builders change the specs? Which builder did you chose?

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    Talking Sutphen Bid

    We recieved similar bids for a 1500 GPM truck and ended up going with the Sutphen. It has recently gone into service and we are very happy with the final product. Alot of truck for the money.
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    Those are great prices.

    We sent out spec's for a commercail chassis, and are excpecting returns soon.

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    Maybe those price stink! There are way to many variable to intelligentally comment on the pricing. How about some details: tank, seating number, rescue body?, foam? tools included, light tower? ladder rack? front intake? super duper whoopy lights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    We received sealed bids for a 1500 gpm pumper apparatus from 7 builders, here are the results : Seagrave Marader -$ 327,000 Pierce Enforcer - $ 299,000 E-one Typhoon - $ 290,000 Sutphen Sheids - $ 275,000 KME Excel - $ 270,000 ALF Metro - $ 269,000 Central States Spartan Advantage _ $ 260,000. Please list any type of new fire apparatus that your fire department awarded bids on this past year !!
    Specs: 6- man MFD cab , 400 Hp engine , 3000 Evs trans , 1500 gpm Q max Hale pump , foam pro ,Stainless steel body , 6" front Intake , 2 " Trash line , Q2, Led Lighting , 8 Kw Onan Hyd Gen , TFT Deck Gun , White over Red Paint.( 750 Poly II Tank ) Ladders thru Tank , Hard Suction Hoses, Aluminum Wheels, Air Conditioning ,2 Telescoping Quartz Lights.
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 01-04-2006 at 06:35 PM.

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    Once again, nobody was invited to bid except "the big boys". Did you submit bids to Smeal, Boise Mobile Equipment, Summit Fire, Marion, Alexis, etc... I bet you'll get ALOT more for your money and a true CUSTOM unit, not just whatever the cabinet maker has on the floor. Nothing wrong with rejecting the bids and doing it again either. That way the bidders had a chance to see everyvody elses bids and will sharpen their pencils. Don't get hung open on a "BRAND" remember you're paying for all of their fancy glossy ads, FDIC displays, and all that goes along with it. When it comes down to it all you want it to do is work. And don't forget a light mast..it's a MUST!!!

    Good Luck

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    Once again, nobody was invited to bid except "the big boys". Did you submit bids to Smeal, Boise Mobile Equipment, Summit Fire, Marion, Alexis, etc... I bet you'll get ALOT more for your money and a true CUSTOM unit, not just whatever the cabinet maker has on the floor. Nothing wrong with rejecting the bids and doing it again either. That way the bidders had a chance to see everybody elses bids and will sharpen their pencils. Don't get hung open on a "BRAND" remember you're paying for all of their fancy glossy ads, FDIC displays, and all that goes along with it. When it comes down to it all you want it to do is work. And don't forget a light mast..it's a MUST!!!

    Good Luck

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    Default bidding

    Buckdog; I don't know where you are from but here in Las Vegas we don't go around calling people to offer them a bid. The bid is placed and any one who wants to bid comes to the table with their bid and then purchasing checks the bids against the specs and then accepts qualified bidders to a preconstruction meeting to meet with us and then we discuss the specs for acceptions and if we can live with the change fine but more than likely we want our specs met and if they can do that then they get the contract. Too many bidders give a bid based on changes that they think they can get through the system.It's not about low bid but who meets the specs we want.

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    Buckdog- As LV pointed out specs should be written and then ANY company who wants to bid should have the opportunity to MEET THE SPECS and enter a bid. Over the years we have come to have all of our apparatus the same make, it really simplifies service issues. However This was done through an open bidding process. The reason we only get bids from our one manufacturer is the other salesmen in the area know all of our units are X Brand and that we are extremely satisfied. If that changes I would expect to see more bids on the engine being replaced next year. We'll have to wait and see.

    www.palmerfire.org

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    What those 2 ^ said. We (not my company, my sister one) awarded a bid to Pierce for a 100' rear mount TL towards the middle of 2005.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Maybe I stated it wrong. There is a large spread in the bids on this unit..why?? Does the company have a garage full of brand X and the salesman know it. We had the same problem when we spec"d our last unit we have a garage full of brand "P" and they were the only bidder besides a smaller manufacturer that responded to the invitation to bid. The smaller guy met our spec better and was almost $100,000 less expensive. We threw out the bids due to only two bids and the large spread. They each got to see each others since it's public records. Well guess what, brand "P" came in at the same price as the smaller builder. Now ask yourself, was it worth the rebid, yes. We realized that brand "P" was trying to get over on us so we went with the small builder and have never looked back. Remember its the tax payers $$$ not ours, wouldn't you rather have an extra $100,000 to put into equipment, training, or staffing than a depreciating hunk of metal??

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    Default whats to argue

    Buckdog: I maybe could understand throwing the bids out based on a large difference in pricing but when you did it over and the other guy came in at the lower price you still went with the first low bid. What did you gain? Seems you lost time in the process with the same results you expected on the bid. Was it a game to see if the other guy would drop his price just to be competitive? If it is built to spec. then go with the guy who builds it to your spec. I realize the idea of trying to save the taxpayers bucks but in the end if you get what you wanted and it serves you and the taxpayers without being extremely overpriced then whats' the deal? I've learned over the years to tell when bs is bs and what is realistic and hammer the bidders at the preconstruction conference. Also there are certain costs built in that are negotiable as well as discounts for various things like up front money. If the small guy served you well and built it your way and you like it and saved money then hooray for you and the taxpayers.

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    I understand various discounts such as paying for the chassis and other items at different times. But what we wanted also was to see if other builders would bid. It wasn't a wacked out truck by any means. But in the past others would never even submit bids because they knew our chief was a brand "P" guy...they said why waste their time. This time a new chief with an open mind, but i guess old history is hard to break and we still only got the two bids. It just goes to show that the builders will gouge you if you let them. Some of them act like that they're doing you a favor by bidding...After this revelation..there will be no more brand "P" in our bays.

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    Default one more time

    Buckdog: Glad to hear that you now have a Chief with an open mind to considering other types and makes. Sales people usually won't waste their time if they don't think they have a chance to make a sale. I fully understand the predicament that you were in. Lets' face it, it is about the dollar. The difference comes from a sales person wanting to make a living versus making the first million anyway possible regardless of any integrity or ethics.Enjoy your new unit, have a great day and keep it safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NewJerseyFFII
    We received sealed bids for a 1500 gpm pumper apparatus from 7 builders, here are the results : Seagrave Marader -$ 327,000 Pierce Enforcer - $ 299,000 E-one Typhoon - $ 290,000 Sutphen Sheids - $ 275,000 KME Excel - $ 270,000 ALF Metro - $ 269,000 Central States Spartan Advantage _ $ 260,000. Please list any type of new fire apparatus that your fire department awarded bids on this past year !!
    FFII, For all that youíve specíd even the highest bid doesnít seem too far out of line.

    With that said, take your time when comparing bids. You may find that the only manufacture that met all your requirements was the highest or it may even be the lowest. The price is not a good indication of getting what you want.

    The one thing Iíve learned from writing specs is that you may ask for one thing and the bid comes back with something entirely different. You may ask for a 1500 GPM Hale pump he bid a 1000 GPM Waterous. You may want all LEDís, he may bid you LEDís only on the light bar or none at all. You want a stainless steel body, perhaps that manufacture dose not build with stainless and he bids Galvanea.
    The bidders do not have to follow youíre specís at all. Itís up to you to sort out the best bid or throw them all out and re-bid

    We currently have a rescue truck about 6 weeks from completion. We received only 4 bids (donít ask me why, a few bells & whistles but nothing most couldnít build) when we opened the bids the price range was from $ 418 to over 500K. The highest had it all, and then some. The lowest, well not even close, it was as if they never read the spec at all. We went with the number three bidder at $ 440. We gave up a little but weíre happily

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by buckdog
    Maybe I stated it wrong. There is a large spread in the bids on this unit..why?? Does the company have a garage full of brand X and the salesman know it. We had the same problem when we spec"d our last unit we have a garage full of brand "P" and they were the only bidder besides a smaller manufacturer that responded to the invitation to bid. The smaller guy met our spec better and was almost $100,000 less expensive. We threw out the bids due to only two bids and the large spread. They each got to see each others since it's public records. Well guess what, brand "P" came in at the same price as the smaller builder. Now ask yourself, was it worth the rebid, yes. We realized that brand "P" was trying to get over on us so we went with the small builder and have never looked back. Remember its the tax payers $$$ not ours, wouldn't you rather have an extra $100,000 to put into equipment, training, or staffing than a depreciating hunk of metal??
    A custom chassis from ( Seagrave & Pierce ) cost a lot more money than a chassis from " Spartan " and only 3 sales reps came down with a demo pumper! Also there was a clause on the distance between our fire house & the builders sales & service department for any warranty repairs. All of the sales reps had 21- days to bid and place a 10 percent bid bond certified check and bidders are required to comply with New Jersey bidding laws including PL 1975, C.127 ( N.J.A.C. 17:27 ) & the New Jersey Prevailing Wage Law. Which means ! Pay union rates to employees at the plant.

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    Does this mean if an out-of-state builder wanted to build your truck, they would have to pay NJ union prevailing wages? Why would a department or state even care what the plant paid its workers? as long as they produce a reliable truck that is build to your spec.

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    Talking Prevailing Wage Law

    You got it right that's what it means. Many of the NE Rust Belt states have laws like that, most state any work done for government agencies (buildings equipment etc.) must be buildt with labor that's paid the "Prevailing Rate" ie union rate. That's one of many reasons these states have high taxes and everyone in their right mind is leaving! Kind of makes bidding a shame especially in building construction since the only variable is how much time is estimated.

    Of course these states also are non right to work states so industry is leaving too so it all equals out since industry is leaving too!!
    Last edited by Bulldog; 01-06-2006 at 06:28 PM. Reason: grammer error

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    We just took delivery of an ALF Metro:
    6 man cab
    ISL Cummins 400hp
    ESV3000 Allison
    ALF Twin Flow single stage 1500 GPM pump
    Ladders thru tank
    Rear Suction
    Rescue Body
    Etc.....$263K




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    www.holtvilleslapoutfd.org

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    hope you don't or didn't go with the Central, we have bought 3 of there trucks and all of them have showed up with problems. We bought a Pierce a few years back and have never ever had a problem with it.

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    We are getting an Ahreans Fox and in my opinion getting far more truck than you are speccing for less money.

    Maybe you should contact them.

    2000 pump, 1000 gallon tank, stainless steel recue pumper body, 10 kW generator, 4 telescopic 1550 watt lights, 1 - 1500 watt eyebrow light, 2 - 200 foot cord reels, a Hale Foam Logic 3.3 Class A foam system with a 30 gallon tank. All compartments are full height full depth with roll out doors, one has 3 vertical tool boards, 3 have roll out trays, with an intermediate shelf and also roll out drop downs. The rear compartment has a roll out tray with 2 Hurst reels mounted on the compartment ceiling. The cab has seating for 6, 5 with scba. There is an EMS compartment with power to it from the shoreline and generator. The cab is airconditioned with a auxilairy heater for the rear of the cab. The cab is an HME P-2 with a 370 Cummins engine and an Allison 3000 transmission. The body is two tone black over red.

    The preconnects include 2 - 200 foot 2 inch on the front bumper, 2 - 300 foot 2 inch over the pump, 2 - 2 1/2 inch discharges off the rear and a mid mounted deluge gun. There is a rear suction but no front suction.

    The ladders are in an overhead ladder rack.

    And NO I am not a saleperson for them...but we did shop around and we did talk to both Pierce and Seagrave.

    FyredUp

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog
    You got it right that's what it means. Many of the NE Rust Belt states have laws like that, most state any work done for government agencies (buildings equipment etc.) must be buildt with labor that's paid the "Prevailing Rate" ie union rate. That's one of many reasons these states have high taxes and everyone in their right mind is leaving! Kind of makes bidding a shame especially in building construction since the only variable is how much time is estimated.

    Of course these states also are none right to work states so industry is leaving too so it all equals out since industry is leaving too!!
    You got it wrong.

    When my Department orders a rig, we cannot tell the manufacturers you have to pay your workers $xx.xx an hour.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I'm abit confuse (as always) about this NJ prevailing wage item. How do they come up with the prevailing wage? Do they survey all the union builders and come with an average then force a possible non union shop to accept the higher wage??? Does this get turned over to the employees and how?? As a IAFF member I hope my dues aren't going to people to figure this out...sometimes this is what drives me bonkers about about the other side of union activities. Can you explain...this all seems so out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckdog
    I'm abit confuse (as always) about this NJ prevailing wage item. How do they come up with the prevailing wage? Do they survey all the union builders and come with an average then force a possible non union shop to accept the higher wage??? Does this get turned over to the employees and how?? As a IAFF member I hope my dues aren't going to people to figure this out...sometimes this is what drives me bonkers about about the other side of union activities. Can you explain...this all seems so out there.
    I am not a Lawyer but I will try to give you a answer! When state,county,local, tax money is spent to build or purchase a vehicle bidders are required to comply with affirmative action & non-discrimination provisions of P.L.1975 C.127 and payment of prevailing wages within new jersey or in other states where the equipment is being built, and there " Payroll " must be recorded and provided to the buyer for public record. ( The apparatus builder must pay prevailing wages for there state )

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