1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCwagondriver
    The department I work for requires all 33 engine companies be equipped with a 350' preconnect 1-1/2". My company runs a 400', and we extend it often with 100' (standpipe) rack. Our SOG's are set up that 4 of the 5 engines on a box alarm assignment initially run an 1-1/2" preconnect (length between 150-400 ft.). So if we are supplying another company from a hydrant, we will also run an 1-1/2" preconnect from our own piece to the fire building/exposure(usually 250 or 400). One of the reasons for this is to avoid a potential problem if one of the engines has mechanical difficulties while pumping and may need to shut down. That way we still have other water sources available. It works well for us.
    Just curious, what type of nozzles and what is the intended GPM for the 1 1/2"s? Also, do your engines have 2 stages pump (set on pressure/series) or just a single stage?

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    erics99,
    We use Akron break-away style 125gpm nozzles (excellent for extending the line).They have a fog tip that can be taken off to give us a 15/16 smoothbore. I think everybody keeps the fog tip on, but having a smooth bore option is nice. Also, if we would run into the problem of a high pump pressure, we could take the fog tip off to reduce our pump pressure. And yes, we have 2 stage pumps, so that definitely helps.

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    DCwagondriver...

    In order for you to flow 125 gpm out to 350 feet to a 100 psi combo nozzle you need to pump it at 230 psi. To go 400 feet you need to pump it at 250 psi.

    There is no way you can supply that 15/16 smoothbore to flow its 182 gpm out to either one of those lengths. For 350 feet the pump pressure would be 328 psi and for 400 feet it would be 368 psi.

    While the 125 gpm flow with the combo nozzle is possible, the 182 gpm flow is not, unless you are using high pressure hose.

    So my guess is either you are mistaken on the hose size or the nozzle size for the smooth bore.

    The reality is 1 3/4 would do this and more at less pump pressure.

    FyredUp

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    Our dept. figures for our combo nozzles - 100 psi (for tip) + 30 psi per 100' of 1-1/2" hose.
    Our max pump pressure per dept. SOP's is 300psi.
    It's 1-1/2" hose and it's a 15/16. Hardly any experience with taking off the fog tip and using smooth bore. Did it twice on our 150' 1-1/2" crosslays. Guess we'll keep the fog tip on the 400' all the time. Thank you for your advice.

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    Thumbs up Well..........

    I understand where DCWagondriver is coming from, and I know that the operation that he outlined is the way it is done in his department. My VFD runs a 1.5 up to 400 feet with no problems. At work, I have run a 1 inch line that hit an even 1,000 feet, and operated for several hours with no problem. This is an area of Firefighting where every jurisdiction seems to have different rules.
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    I dont doubt whats being said here, although, IMHO, 125gpm isnt an acceptable flow for an attack line. My question is, why do you want to subject your apparatus to thoese kinds of pump pressures on a regular basis?
    It cant be good for them. Why would you want to use the upper limits as SOG?

    The only time we come anywere close to thoese kinds of pressure numbers is when we are flowing foam.

    It just doesnt make amy sense to me. I wonder, do you operate other equipment at maximum tollerence on a daily basis as well?
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    Lightbulb Well.............

    Dave raises some good points, and I don't have the answers, except that the thousand foot stretch of 1 inch is not a misprint. Our rigs at work (work is Md. DNR Forest Service) are constructed a bit different, in that I am flowing about 20 GPM on that 1 inch, and the pump normally operates at 285 PSI, and can be jacked up to 400 max. The Max flow is supposed to be 100 GPM @ 100 PSI, but I've got my rig delivering 125 @ 100 PSI, using a 2.5 Suction Sleeve in place of the 1.5 that the pump was delivered with.
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    Weel you have to realize that your pumper is not doing all that work. In DC where I work we operate with 2 wagons, one on the fire ground and one on the hydrant. The wagons SOP's at hydrant are to pump 125psi ( or 150psi if using the anchor "Hydrant valve") So 125psi ,the hydrant probably has a pressure of at least 50psi, and they are 300' away so add about 27psi for FL So this pumper is only pumping 102psi. Now the Wagon at the fire lets say he is operating 2 crosslays @ (200' 1-1/2" thats 125 GPM each) 160psi but he is receving 125psifrom the first pumper. So this wagon is only pumping 30psi. You must remember that these pumps take advantage of incoming pressure so the actual work the pump does is less.

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    DCHydroEngineer...

    Of course the attack pumper takes advantage of the supply pumpers boost in pressure. Just as the attack pumper would do the same off from a good hydrant without a supply pumper.

    BUT, the facts still remain that in order to flow the water you say you are flowing the engine pressure from the second engine has to be close to what I posted above. For the 350 and 400 foot 1 1/2 inch lines it is virtually impossible to flow those gpms for the 15/16 inch nozzle unless your hose is rated at a minimum of 400 psi working pressures.

    For 1 3/4 inch hose the EP would still have to be around 255 psi for 400 feet.

    My career FD uses 1 3/4 inch hose for a 200 gpm at 75 psi break a part nozzle with the 15/15 inch tip. If we go beyond the 300 foot preconnect we go to a 2 1/2 inch line with a wye to reduce friction loss.

    My volly FD uses 2 inch hose with the same 200 at 75 combo tip, but our smoothbore is a 1 1/4 inch. If we go beyond our 300 foot preconnects we stretch a 3 inch line with a wye to reduce friction loss.

    I am not saying what you do doesn't worj for you. You know that better than I do, I am not there. I am saying there are easier ways to get there.

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    You can do it the way DCHydro. is talking about at a lower pressure. Because like he said that 2nd wagon can open his lines and be flowing at 107psi or whatever number he quoted while just at idle. So he can boost that pressure by 150psi and not be running his truck very hard. By the 2nd wagon having that high of an incoming pressure it allows him to pump at that higher pressure, and have his engine working just like it would with 200' of hose on the ground. We used to have to boost pressure all the time when we used 3'' as supply line, but now we drop 5'' and don't have to worry about it.

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    Hello,
    I've been reading this thread and have to ask, why do so many of you not like 1 1/2" attack lines? We have 2- 1 1/2" crosslays, 0ne 200', and the other 250'. These are used very effectively(I think) for "Bread and butter" fires. I do agree, for bigger fires you need bigger water( we also have 4- 2" pre-connects 200' each.), but why make more work than necessary?
    Now, let me also say that i'm not a lazy person trying to get out of "extra" work, and not trying to criticize anybody. In fact i'm asking so that i may learn somthing here !

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDtruckLt
    Hello,
    I've been reading this thread and have to ask, why do so many of you not like 1 1/2" attack lines? We have 2- 1 1/2" crosslays, 0ne 200', and the other 250'. These are used very effectively(I think) for "Bread and butter" fires. I do agree, for bigger fires you need bigger water( we also have 4- 2" pre-connects 200' each.), but why make more work than necessary?
    Now, let me also say that i'm not a lazy person trying to get out of "extra" work, and not trying to criticize anybody. In fact i'm asking so that i may learn somthing here !

    Just a few questions.....what Dept are you from?.....atleast give a geographical area....state or county.

    How many 1st due jobs do you get in a year?
    What is your area's demoprapghics?

    Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to break your chops......

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    I work for a fairly large dept. in N.C.. The company that I ride right now is not too busy(newer station), but the engine i just left (last fall) answered about 1900 calls last year. I will have to wait until tomorrow to give you exact numbers on working fires for the year, i'm not on duty right now. As a guess, we (my engine alone) probably had 10-15 "Jobs".
    No offense taken. That's why I asked the question, wanting to learn somthing.
    I have worked here for more than 10 years, long enough to know that some things are done because "that's how we've always done it" and that's o.k. for some things. Now that i have been visiting this site and reading what y'all have to say about alot of things I realize that there are other(somtimes better) ways to do things. I learned a long time ago if i don't ask i won't learn.
    Thanks in advance for your time.

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    RFDtruckLT...

    My career FD uses 1 3/4 inch hose. My volly uses 2 inch hose.

    My volly uses 2 inch to flow 200 gpm at 75 psi through a combo tip or 290 at 40 psi through a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We under pump the comba at times to flow around 160 or so.

    Why 2 inch? Simple, short staffing during the day and this allows maximum flow with minimum people. We have been using this for a few years now and it works well for us.

    It started with one 2 inch preconnect off the back of the engine and every time we had a working fire the guys would go for that line. The chief decided to change out the whole department so we did.

    Should you do it too? Heck, I don't know. What works for us may be an abysmal failure for you. I can tell you we haven't used 1 1/2 inch hose for almost 2 decades. We decided the flow wasn't enough for us.

    FyredUp

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    RFDTRUCKLT- What Raleigh station are you at?

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    GFDLT1- station 26
    Fyred up- what do you call short staffing? How many people to a working fire 1st alarm?

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    RFDtruckLT...

    Okay here's an example...we had a call at 0409 on a Monday morning and we had 12 people turn out. This was a very good response for us. It may have been better than normal because the page came across as smoke showing from the eaves. By the way, we saved the house and other than the hole I chopped through the siding from the attic you couldn't tell from the outside there had even been a fire there.

    It is not unusual for us to respond with 8 FF's during the day. Mutual aid is at best 10 minutes away. So we have to do what we can with what we have and the 2 inch and high flow in my mind have made the difference more than once for us.

    On my career FD we get a minimum of 12 and usually 14 for a report of a structure fire. Upgrading to a first alarm gets a mutual aid engine and another engine or quint and a BLS unit from our FD.

    FyredUp

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    FyredUp,
    We have 3 engines, 1 truck(ladder), & one rescue on first alarm. So we have a min. of 14 on scene in maybe 9-10 min.. 1st due engine pulls 11/2"(95 or 125 gpm) starts interior operations.2nd due engine catches hydrant & lays into 1st engine. Remaining manpower on 2nd due pulls second 1/12" line to back up 1st crew inside. Truck does ventilation/ primary search. Rescue does secondary search.
    With all this being said, we have 2 1 1/2" lines inside operating in under 5 min. usually.With both lines set on 125 gpm we get a total of 250 gpm. with excellent manuverability(sp).
    Obviously if the fire dictates, upon arrival we pull 2" lines, or whatever the OIC thinks he needs.
    This seems to work fine for us, that's why i was asking about the downside of 1 1/2".

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    RFDtruckLT...

    We can underpump to flow as little as your 1 1/2 if the fire is small enough. The big advantage for us is 2 guys can advance the line and flow 2 1/2 flows with a line not much bigger than an 1 3/4 inch line.

    Again, this works for us. I wouldn't begin to tell you what you do is wrong. Obviously it has worked for you.

    FyredUp

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    As i read back through this post, I realized somthing you said that I missed earlier. That is that you are using low pressure nozzles. We have low pressure nozzles for our high rise packs(also 1 1/2"), but however much I hate to say it I don't have too much experience with them as I am a "truckie" now. (the last one in the city that has no pump). I see by your postings that you like the L.P. nozzles pretty good.
    See, now I have a good idea for some training coming up. Go out with the engine and flow some water with their L.P. nozzle!!

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    RFDtruckLT...

    My volly FD has been using the 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles for several years now. We tested just about everything on the market before settling on them. Personally, I could have been just as happy with a 15/16 or 1 inch smooth bore but these low pressure nozzles have worked out very well for us.

    My career FD uses this same nozzle with a 15/16 slug for our high rise packs on 1 3/4 inch hose.

    Have fun playing with them, more water, less work.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDtruckLt
    Hello,
    I've been reading this thread and have to ask, why do so many of you not like 1 1/2" attack lines?

    I dont know if its so much we dont like it, but I know in my case (and Im sure others) 1 1/2 is old technology and as such was replaced years ago. We havent had 1 1/2" for over 20 years. Im surprised to read about all the people that still use it. I had kow idea so much of it was still out there.
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    From what I understand my dept. tried 1 3/4" hose before I was hired (15 yrs. ago or so) and didn't like it. I don't know why, maybe back to the "we have always done it that way" attitude. It seems like that mentality has just changed for us in the last 5-7 yrs. In fact we just yesterday switched over to a 800mhz. radio system , and we have a new chief starting in Feb.! This is why I am interested in hearing what y'all have to say about tour attack lines.

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    RFDTruckLT- Raleigh isn't the only department in the county that has switched back to 1 1\2. Bay Leaf FD switched back to it about 5 or 6 years ago on their crosslays. They did this because they found that it was easier to get 1 1\2 up to the 3rd floor and the attics (4th floor) of those mansions out there. I work in Garner, our cross lays are 1 3\4 set at 125 gpm and we love them because you can move around with them and still get a decent amount of water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDtruckLt
    I work for a fairly large dept. in N.C.. The company that I ride right now is not too busy(newer station), but the engine i just left (last fall) answered about 1900 calls last year. I will have to wait until tomorrow to give you exact numbers on working fires for the year, i'm not on duty right now. As a guess, we (my engine alone) probably had 10-15 "Jobs".
    No offense taken. That's why I asked the question, wanting to learn somthing.
    I have worked here for more than 10 years, long enough to know that some things are done because "that's how we've always done it" and that's o.k. for some things. Now that i have been visiting this site and reading what y'all have to say about alot of things I realize that there are other(somtimes better) ways to do things. I learned a long time ago if i don't ask i won't learn.
    Thanks in advance for your time.
    Sorry for the late response.......for some reason I couldn't remember where I posted.......

    Thanks for your info on your Dept. I can tell you that were I was a vollie FF and were I currentley work. There are also two different mindsets. When I started in the fire service in 1992 as a vollie....we were still using the Red Booster line and 1.5"....then when a new chief was elected....he got rid of all the booster line, used the 1.5 for nussence fires and upgraded to 1.75" . The reson being.....we were loosing buildings.....b/c the lines we were using did not have the output of GPM we needed. (amongst a few other things).

    Were I work....we use 1.75" line. We feel that an effective FF stream (1.75") is one that can flow 180gpm at 50psi with 3-4 men on the line....actually....2 on the nozzle team and 2 others to estimate the stretch, keep the line from getting tangled, and ensure smooth line advancement. A major factor to this idea is due to our operations based on a 6 story non-fireproof multiple dwelling and the amount of line needed, the nozzle, ad FL.

    We usually encounter heavy fire loads and colliers mansions (in area I work). The area I work in is mostly if not all immigrants from Haiti, Jamacia, Africa, and the DR and they keep us pretty busy.....just under 4800 runs last year.....which is the avg for us.

    As we all know, fire is much more intense then 10-20 years ago. Back in the day my job used the 54gpm Navy Nozzle.....and those "old timers" (I'm talking.....guys from the 60s) even say that its a good thing the job changed. And that's my point.....I would rather have that extra 1/4" so I can flow 180gpm....at 50psi (nozzle psi) on the 6 floor.

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