# Thread: Length of attack lines?

1. ## Length of attack lines?

What is the maximum length for 1 1/2 attack lines? Would anyone use 550 to 750 ft. of 1 1/2 as an attack line??

Just so you understand, a so called Captain, and Chief just had the folks at there station do this to an engine.

2. Originally Posted by Fire40man
What is the maximum length for 1 1/2 attack lines? Would anyone use 550 to 750 ft. of 1 1/2 as an attack line??

Just so you understand, a so called Captain, and Chief just had the folks at there station do this to an engine.

I guess it all depends if that is all the type of hose your departent uses and how far the building or target is off the road. Using a fog nozzle, the engine pressure would be so high that it could damage the pumps. Well over 300 psi for the 750 ft layout.

Normally, 5 lengths, 250 feet operating a fog nozzle whould be long enough.

Why not use 1 -3/4 or 2 inch handline and cut back on the engine pressures to get the same water from point A to point B??

3. Originally Posted by Fire40man
What is the maximum length for 1 1/2 attack lines? Would anyone use 550 to 750 ft. of 1 1/2 as an attack line??
You CANNOT SAFELY use 1 3/4 hose in over a 300' (6 length) stretch. I am positive that with 1 1/2, it is even less.

You might get away with it on several occasions, but mark my words that one day in the not too distant future you will have a burst length that will drastically effect an outcome of a fire.

I am not sure the exact friction loss for an 1 1/2 hose, but here is the calculation for 1 3/4. You will see that the pump pressure is way beyond the normal operating pressure for hose:

Tip: 100psi (fog)/50psi (solid)
22psi per 100' of 1 3/4" at 750' = 165 psi
plus 5psi for each floor you go up.

For a 750' stretch with a fog nozzle, your Engine Pressure has to be 265psi. This is with 1 3/4" hose. For 1 1/2 hose, it will have to be substantially more. The solid stream tip is 50psi less, but still way over what a normal Engine Pressure should be.

My recommendation is (since we have long stretches): Throw away your 1 1/2 hose or "make sure every length fails" at your next annual pressure test and don't buy anymore.

On your hose bed, pack 10 lengths of 2 1/2" hose on the bottom. At the end of the 10th length, place a 2 1/2" to 1 3/4" (1 1/2" threads) reducer and pack a maximum of 6 lengths (300') of 1 3/4" hose on top. This will give you the mobility of an 1 3/4" line but drastically reduce the Engine pressure. This reduces the chance of damaging the pump on the Engine and more importantly dramatically reduce your chance of bursting a length of hose.

To make it an even more versitile bed, instead of an 2 1/2" to 1 3/4" reducer, place a 2 1/2" nozzle with an 1 1/4" tip with outside threads on to the end of the 10th length of 2 1/2". Then attach your 1 3/4" hose directly to the 1 1/4" tip of the 2 1/2" nozzle. If you arrive at a fire that is too big for an 1 3/4" hose, (Yes, there are fires that are too big for an 1 3/4" hose) you can spin the 1 3/4" off, leave it in the front yard and use the 2 1/2" line to attack the fire.

4. IF you are using CAFS, 300' + in a 1 3/4" (and 1 1/2") line is and will work. Straight water ain't gonna give you poo for pressure (unless it's all downhill).

5. Straight water does just fine in 300' 1 3/4" stretches. I've been doing it for quite some time with no problems. After 300' I don't know. It isn't safe so we don't do it.

6. Originally Posted by Fire40man
What is the maximum length for 1 1/2 attack lines? Would anyone use 550 to 750 ft. of 1 1/2 as an attack line??

Just so you understand, a so called Captain, and Chief just had the folks at there station do this to an engine.
750 ft? of 1 1/2" !!!

Are your bosses azzholes or just stupid?

You want to know why I offer such harsh language and commentary?, refer to the following fatality reports:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityfir...re_pdf6670.pdf
http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com...36cc2bf5c285ba
http://www.ci.cincinnati.oh.us/cityf...re_pdf8213.pdf

A Brother is dead partially because they used a 350ft hose stretch of 1 3/4" hose.

Although it is permissible to use 6 lengths of 1 3/4" hose as the lead lengths...CFD opted to add in an additional safety factor and make the max for them 5 lengths and all lengths past the 5 would be 2 1/2".

It is beyond debate or doubt that that much 1 1/2 is inadequate to provide any meaningful flow from the nozzle at a safe presure while conserving some of the pump capacity.

Why would a fireman want to have this hose load on their rig? Do they understand basic physics or math?

I don't know what else to say to you other then good luck and god help you..with friends like that...who needs enemies?

7. I gotta agree with the man from the Bronx.

2 1/2 inch hose is cheap and plentiful in most departments. The reducer is like 5 bucks. Build the bottom of the lay out of 2 1/2, and finish it with a couple of hundred feet of 1 1/2 (or better yet, 1 3/4).

When we need a long lay, we have 300 feet of 2 1/2 preconnected off the rear, and we can add to that a 200 foot 1 3/4 hose pack to get a 500 foot lay in seconds. If we need to go further, we can reverse lay with either our 2 1/2 supply line, or 4" LDH, and set up a gated wye on the end to run the hose pack off of.

You can run the 700 feet at low pressure, we run 1000+ feet with forestry 1 1/2 all the time, but that's for low flow wildland stuff. Try that for structural applications, and you'll be better off ****ing on the fire.

8. Originally Posted by NDeMarse
Straight water does just fine in 300' 1 3/4" stretches. I've been doing it for quite some time with no problems. After 300' I don't know. It isn't safe so we don't do it.
Nate I don't know about your Engine but with the exception of the High Pressure rigs downtown, most have the primary bed stacked with 6 lengths of 1 3/4" finshed with 10 lengths of 2 1/2"

This allows for 50 psi at the nob and 120 psi for the 1 3/4" and 50psi for the 2 1/2" This is 220psi. Now that is 30 psi below the 250psi safety limit. However you must remember that the highest "typical stretch will be 6 to 7 stories. 6floors x 5psi for head pressure will get you what for a total?

You got it 30 psi for a total of 250 psi!

This makes it "almost" impossible to stretch more than is safely permissible under the pressure restrictions of the hose and procedures.

See most think us FDNY guys are dopes and just yank hose till we are blue in the face but there is a method behind the madness!

FTM-PTB

PS- 6 lengths of 1 3/4" plus the tip will have you at approx 170 psi... easy to flow 180 gpm at that pressure.

9. I know the FD whose Captain did this, with the approval of his District Chief. Another Captain tried to tell them not to do it, but they didn't want to listen to him....... Plus they wanted to do it to another engine, too!!!

They did it because they didn't have a preconnect to reach 1 fire....... In a commercial building........ Even though most of us on these forums would pull a 2 1/2 and branch off with smaller lines....... I assume they did it because they had a bunch of old 1 1/2 sitting around not in use............ Can you imagine the mess when they try to pull that off the engine?!?!?

10. Im sorry, but in my book the only word for that is "stupid". Nothing over 200' for 1 3/4" here (gave up 1 1/2" years ago). Anything longer then that its 3" then 1 3/4".

11. Originally Posted by FFFRED
Nate I don't know about your Engine but with the exception of the High Pressure rigs downtown, most have the primary bed stacked with 6 lengths of 1 3/4" finshed with 10 lengths of 2 1/2"

This allows for 50 psi at the nob and 120 psi for the 1 3/4" and 50psi for the 2 1/2" This is 220psi. Now that is 30 psi below the 250psi safety limit. However you must remember that the highest "typical stretch will be 6 to 7 stories. 6floors x 5psi for head pressure will get you what for a total?

You got it 30 psi for a total of 250 psi!

This makes it "almost" impossible to stretch more than is safely permissible under the pressure restrictions of the hose and procedures.

See most think us FDNY guys are dopes and just yank hose till we are blue in the face but there is a method behind the madness!

FTM-PTB

PS- 6 lengths of 1 3/4" plus the tip will have you at approx 170 psi... easy to flow 180 gpm at that pressure.
Wow Fred, I'm almost arroused!

You beat me to the Cinci story...that was a hard lesson learned the hard way.

12. Originally Posted by FFFRED
Nate I don't know about your Engine but with the exception of the High Pressure rigs downtown, most have the primary bed stacked with 6 lengths of 1 3/4" finshed with 10 lengths of 2 1/2"
FFFred, you are correct. For some reason I keep wanting to say that it is filled out with 12 lengths when it is only 10.

I didn't realize the method behind the madness though! Makes sense!

13. Originally Posted by firenresq77
They did it because they didn't have a preconnect to reach 1 fire....... In a commercial building........ Even though most of us on these forums would pull a 2 1/2 and branch off with smaller lines....... I assume they did it because they had a bunch of old 1 1/2 sitting around not in use............ Can you imagine the mess when they try to pull that off the engine?!?!?
This is precisely why all firefighters should be trained on their preconnected hose loads AS WELL as static or dead hose loads. ALL members should be able to judge a stretch and put the correct amount of house on the ground to make the fire and operate. This will eliminate the need to "build-up" several preconnected lines and delaying water on the fire.

I wouldn't be so worried about the mess of pulling it off. Although, that is also a problem.

I would be more worried about the mess when they go attack a fire 750' inside a commercial building with an 1 1/2" line with no pressure. An 1 1/2" line has no business being on a rig for interior attack anyway. Not to mention being pulled into a commercial building that has a heavier fire load.

I am not sure when we are going to realize one of the reasons that we get firefighters hurt or killed in commercial buildings is because we (on a whole) tend to treat them the same as residential fires. Commercial buildings aren't houses! They require bigger lines with more water and more reach to cool the atmosphere well in front of the advancing members! This can't be done with an 1 1/2" line!

One other thing on the 750' stretch. I am curious to know how many firefighters would be stretching this 750' preconnect and get it to the correct place. It is well out of the realm of a few guys arriving on one rig to do. If you are going to tell me that the 2nd Engine or Truck will assist in stretching this line, then your "We don't have the manpower for 2 1/2!" argument goes right out the window.

So I ask. How do you get the 750' preconnect stretched to the proper location?

14. We have a 300' 1 1/2" line on one of our engines. It has to be pumped around 265 I believe. We flow tested it to assure it was producing the right GPM's.

1 1/2" hose works fine if you run short preconnects or pump it at higher pressures. This is proven by some busy departments in the metro DC area. I can;t speak frome xpierence, except that we use it for our bumper lines and its nice to manuever for car and trash fires.

Dave says no more than 200' for 1 3/4" hose, thats way conservative IMO. I prettymuch feel that any hose over 300' isnt likely practical as a preconnect. Many companies don't have hosebeds set up with static beds for use in the FDNY described fashion (bigger hose filled out with smaller hose). The sad truth is alot of companies don;t know what to do when a preconnect falls short.

I'm just curious why some of you feel that over 250 PSI isnt safe. Hose bursting at 250 is pretty messy too. Almost all new hose has at least a 400 PSI operating pressure with up to 800 burst pressure. Is it outside the box to think we can pump a little higher on some of these lines or just stupid? Sometimes I think we are just afraid to chart new waters. Just thinking out loud here.

15. ## Hose age?

Did I forget to mention that the hose is over 20 years old, my fault. Heck lets get rid of LDH for hydrant connections, uncharted waters?????? Heck just drowned the morons and we will all be better off!!!!!

16. We run a maximum of 200' for 1 3/4. Longer stretches get a leader line of 2 1/2 to a reducer or wye.

Keep fighting the good fight brothers

17. I would be more worried about the mess when they go attack a fire 750' inside a commercial building with an 1 1/2" line with no pressure. An 1 1/2" line has no business being on a rig for interior attack anyway. Not to mention being pulled into a commercial building that has a heavier fire load.
Certain people would argue that you have no right pulling that 1 3/4 for a commercial building period, no matter how long it is. Of course they would be the same that say 2 1/2 and straight tips should make up your high rise pack.

When we finally start doing the right thing, we will stop killing ourselves.

Another problem with preconnects (at least off the side - ie crosslays) is that if you pull past for the 3 sided view, then you end up pulling a line that was designed to be pulled straight off the truck at an angle. And those little rollers don't work as well as people want you to believe.

Training is key...as well as thinking...so that you actually read conditions and pull the proper line. Not just pull the line you always pull.....

18. Originally Posted by hfd66truck
Certain people would argue that you have no right pulling that 1 3/4 for a commercial building period, no matter how long it is. Of course they would be the same that say 2 1/2 and straight tips should make up your high rise pack.
I would be one of those..

Another problem with preconnects (at least off the side - ie crosslays) is that if you pull past for the 3 sided view, then you end up pulling a line that was designed to be pulled straight off the truck at an angle. And those little rollers don't work as well as people want you to believe.
Nope...they dont' at all. Even worse if you don't have them. Even worse is when someone drops the loop on a triple lay...talk about spaghetti.

Training is key...as well as thinking...so that you actually read conditions and pull the proper line. Not just pull the line you always pull.....
Yup...it's hilarious when an officer tells us to stretch a 2-1/2. Some of the guys just get that 1000 yard stare.

19. Originally Posted by pfd4life
Yup...it's hilarious when an officer tells us to stretch a 2-1/2. Some of the guys just get that 1000 yard stare.

"a 2 1/2? But its heavy!"

Sound familiar?

20. Originally Posted by hfd66truck
Certain people would argue that you have no right pulling that 1 3/4 for a commercial building period, no matter how long it is. Of course they would be the same that say 2 1/2 and straight tips should make up your high rise pack.
I am also one of those people. I am a firm believer of this and I think this is why many departments get beaten back out and we end up getting guys hurt at commercial and hi-rise fires. We go in out-gunned! Selling ourselves short for a "lighter" 1 3/4" line, when in fact you are going to need two or three of them in the same place to put the same amount of water on it.

I love the guys who say, "we don't have the manpower for 2 1/2", who then stretch seven 1 3/4" lines on a defensive fire. But that is another thread!

21. Originally Posted by MG3610
I'm just curious why some of you feel that over 250 PSI isnt safe. Hose bursting at 250 is pretty messy too. Almost all new hose has at least a 400 PSI operating pressure with up to 800 burst pressure. Is it outside the box to think we can pump a little higher on some of these lines or just stupid? Sometimes I think we are just afraid to chart new waters. Just thinking out loud here.
I believe that around here it is somewhere areound 150 psi.

Weruj correct me if I am wrong, but aren't 790(engine), 791(tower ladder), 794(engine), all set for 150 psi. I believe that is what 206 told us at drill.

22. Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer
I believe that around here it is somewhere areound 150 psi.

Weruj correct me if I am wrong, but aren't 790(engine), 791(tower ladder), 794(engine), all set for 150 psi. I believe that is what 206 told us at drill.
Well, 651, 486, 928, and 739 are all set at 475psi! Cuz 104 told me. Kidding..

Our preconnects are 250ft, we pump at almost 150psi to achieve a decent flow. One more reason I want SMOOTHBORES! We've gone over 300ft before, just happened that we were going downhill with it. Even at 250ft, the stream sucks, perhaps it's the horrible TFT nozzles. Where, or where are my smoothbores..

23. On the engine at my station and the engine at our HQ we run 2 preconnected 1 3/4" lines. My engine used to be one was 150' the other 200' now they are both 200'. The HQ engine runs the 2 200'. We also have 250' preconnected 2 1/2" on our bed with around 250' more dead load. We also have another 250' of 1 3/4" dead load on the bed. This is standard with both of the main engines. We have done this as long as I have been on the department and it works fine.

They typically only run the pump up to around 150psi and hold unless they need to boost or decrease pressure. That is what works for us and may not work for you.

24. pfd4life, it ain't the nozzles fault. If you are only pumping 150psi for 250ft of 1 3/4" line, you are losing (general guideline 35psi/100') about half your pressure on just hose.

25. Well, I would LOVE to see pics of this 750' preconnect! Then, I would LOVE to see pics of the fools that thought this idea up! Around here you dont see preconnects of more than 200' of 1 3/4. Most are 150'. My engine runs a street line which is 3 (maybe 4) lengths of 3" with a gated-wye and 3 lenghts of 1 3/4 used for narrow streets the engine cant make. We got rid of crosslays awhile back, all our preconnects are off the back now. This helped reminded the driver to pull past the damn fire building to allow access for the ladder companies and also made for an easier stretch.

On the issue of the incident that brought about this hairbrained idea anyway. Did these "command" officers ever think of laying in a supply line then stretching off a gate? If the fire was small enough to contain with 1 1/2 this is the way to go. A 750' preconnect is as crazy as yellow fire trucks.

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