1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default Run, Staff Stats.

    Hey all!
    Looking to gather stats to use in our next contract negotiation regarding call volume and staffing. Last year we ran about 3250 calls for a population of 25,000, with about 2/3's of them being medical. We have 5 FT guys per shift (15 total) manning 2 stations. This averages out to about 216 calls per man per year. We've been running our butts off for quite awhile and we're trying to convince the Administration that we need more guy's per shift.
    I have seen statistics from the St. Louis area (St. Louis Post-Dispatch: Fire Agencies by the Numbers) and see that we seem to be running a lot more calls per man than a lot of other Departments.
    We do have POC's to assist, but they are not on any shifts and most are not around during the day when we could really use them.
    If anyone can forward their stats as far as FT/PT numbers, Call volume, population served, and location I would greatly appreciate it. I will be entering data into an Excel Spreadsheet and will forward if anyone else want's a copy.
    Please reply to this thread or directly to me at eric@southholland.org
    www.iaff4109.org
    Thanks - Eric

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    107

    Default

    here is a link to the 2004 annual report go to the last 2 pages for the numbers. i don't feel bad that guys are taking 216 calls per year that is not all that many. Good luck on your fight with the city on the new contract.

    http://www.fire.ci.columbus.oh.us/Do...CDF_annual.pdf

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default

    I looked at your stats for 2004. if you do an average, you guys are running a totoal of 123,879 total calls per year with a staff of 1,543. If you average that out, you are running approximately 80 calls per man per year. Using the same method of averaging, we are running 216 calls per man per year and all of out guys are Firefighters/Paramedics and spend equal time on the ambulances too.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    gunnyv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    1,429

    Default

    Good luck on the contract, but I don't see where you are being overworked. There are plenty of ambulances out there running 8000 runs a year each. Check the Firehouse Run Survey.

    I hope you do get more manpower, but we have plenty of cities/twps in my area that have higher volumes of work with less FT FFs than you have. Remember, for every place you can show with more, they city will show you 5 with less.

    Averaging by man will always give the small dept a higher avg. ST Louis sends like 28 guys on a fire alarm-you send 5. What happen when they give you an extra 3 men and your per man # drops by 30%? They'll lay them off.

    My heart is with you, just recognize the pitfalls of the argument.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    No. Providence R.I. : Land of the "How ya doins"
    Posts
    990

    Default

    We are a city of 50,000 with a career dept. of 102. Last year we did 6700 runs with 75% being EMS.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    We are a city of 37,000, 22 square miles, 3 stations, running 3 engines, 2 ladders and a rescue. 71 career personnel.

    Last year we did 5,521 runs.. a 50/50 mix of fire related and EMS.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Right - this is exactly what I'm talking about - you guys did 5,521 calls with 71 Career personnel - we ran 3,260 with 15 career personnel. All of the towns around us are running anywhere from 9 to 21 guys per shift (for comparable population and equipment).

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    BCmdepas3280's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    873

    Default Same all over

    We have a pop. of 19000 and ran 2534 calls. We have 33 men .....8 per shift plus a chief. Seventy three percent of our runs were medic calls for 2005.
    IACOJ Membership 2002
    {15}

    Mike IAFF

    The beatings will continue until the morale improves

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv
    Good luck on the contract, but I don't see where you are being overworked. There are plenty of ambulances out there running 8000 runs a year each. Check the Firehouse Run Survey.

    I hope you do get more manpower, but we have plenty of cities/twps in my area that have higher volumes of work with less FT FFs than you have. Remember, for every place you can show with more, they city will show you 5 with less.

    Averaging by man will always give the small dept a higher avg. ST Louis sends like 28 guys on a fire alarm-you send 5. What happen when they give you an extra 3 men and your per man # drops by 30%? They'll lay them off.

    My heart is with you, just recognize the pitfalls of the argument.
    I agree that it would be better to demonstrate what limitations you have with that staffing. Define roles on the fireground and show what each man can accomplish and show what they can't...as in rescue someones child because you only have 5! men. 1 man at the pump another on the nozzle, 1 is the Chief I imagine, 1 back up man and that leaves one man to perform all the Truck Functions! Tell them all you can safely accomplish is exterior attack...that will show them how overworked you are.

    The percentage of EMS or gas leaks or auto alarms...is irrelevant...at one fire or 100 you are still going to need certain staffing and manpower...otherwise you might as well not have an FD. That is the cities argument and why sooo many of them wanted Fire Depts to take on EMS...it makes it easier for them to reduce or refuse staffing because x amount of runs are EMS related.. Big F*ckin Deal! Just because you ran 3 EMS runs doesn't effect the operational needs at that fire in an occupied house at 0230.

    Be careful bro...I went to the funerals in Keokuk...don't become a statistic because your city is cheap...it aint worth it.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 01-17-2006 at 09:32 AM.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default

    The problem that faces the original poster is one that is facing many of us in this particular area. There is not complaining about call volume, but things can get mighty stretched when you are running multiple calls. The average around here seems to be around 60-65% EMS runs. When you are a fire department that provides ALS transport along with firefighting, you can see how things need to improve. I know departments in my very own division that at times run ONE person on an engine. My personal view is that there should be consolidation in our area. There isnt the political will to do so, but we are going to each others communities on a daily basis anyway and it could be much more efficient. It would eliminate a huge layer of brass and put the resources where they are needed the most..On the street.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    The problem that faces the original poster is one that is facing many of us in this particular area. There is not complaining about call volume, but things can get mighty stretched when you are running multiple calls. The average around here seems to be around 60-65% EMS runs. When you are a fire department that provides ALS transport along with firefighting, you can see how things need to improve. I know departments in my very own division that at times run ONE person on an engine. My personal view is that there should be consolidation in our area. There isnt the political will to do so, but we are going to each others communities on a daily basis anyway and it could be much more efficient. It would eliminate a huge layer of brass and put the resources where they are needed the most..On the street.
    Mikey why do you guys allow a company to roll with 1 man? That is a fraud service to the taxpayer. The city can claim the response time was xx:xx to a fire but they will not address the issue of having one man on a rig. That is one of the largest safety issues your union should be looking to address. That man should sit there until there is a NFPA complaint staffing level.

    How often does this happen? What is the one guy by procedure supposed to do?

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default

    Fred, MY department normally runs with a 4 man engine. There are a few rarities when it may go to 3, but we usually have our 4. The department I am referring to is one of our neighbors. Good firefighters, but their city dosent seem to care one bit about them being undertaffed. I am lucky enough to work where the city is taking steps to truly improve our response capabilities and manning. I think with the talent we have in our division (which does quite a bit of fire duty) we would be able to develop a plan that would insure acceptable manning at the scene of each and every fire on the still (1st) alarm level.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    135

    Default

    we are a 16 man 1 chief department that ran 1306 runs last year with alot of ems non transport. our population is about 12000 and we have 2 stations. we run alot with only 2 men on a truck.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    135

    Default

    i am also on a combo department that runs 1 man on a truck 24 / 7 unless a volunteer happens to be on station when it comes in. his job is to arrive and set up command and an action plan get lines pulled off and determine water needs. usualy though a vol gets to the seen first and has alot of this done. we have about a 90 member department so manpower is hardly ever an issue.we run 4 station 3 of which are manned by career and the 4th is a fire science internship station where 3 or 4 students live there and go to college.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    The problem that faces the original poster is one that is facing many of us in this particular area. There is not complaining about call volume, but things can get mighty stretched when you are running multiple calls. The average around here seems to be around 60-65% EMS runs. When you are a fire department that provides ALS transport along with firefighting, you can see how things need to improve. I know departments in my very own division that at times run ONE person on an engine. My personal view is that there should be consolidation in our area. There isnt the political will to do so, but we are going to each others communities on a daily basis anyway and it could be much more efficient. It would eliminate a huge layer of brass and put the resources where they are needed the most..On the street.
    Thanks Mikey
    The intent of my original post is not to whine that we are running constantly, it's exactly as you said - we continually run into situations where we have 1 man left to run an engine because everyone else is out on paramedic calls. Our intent is to provide statistics to the Village on how everyone else does it and explain to them that it is unsafe to run the way we currently do, not to mention the reduced coverage to the community. One of their (the Village's) solutions was to rely more on mutual aid companies, but we questioned how we could effectively rely on other towns that are already overloaded with their own calls, not to mention a severe increase in response times by having to wait for out of town units to arrive.
    Just checking locally, we see that comparing any town around us, with similar population and call volume, we are running with a skeleton crew. We at least have a minimum 5 man staffing, but this creates overtime whenever anyone takes off for any reason. While it's great for us because we get the OT for it, the Village is complaining about the increase in our OT budget, and they don't seem to understand the #1 - our call volume is steadily increasing, and #2 - we have a lot of guy's with over 10 years and are getting more vacation time that will always cause overtime.
    I would really prefer to get stats from suburban Dept's that more closly resemble our own demographics as it's hard to compare us to a city like Chicago, or Columbus because in reality, we're two totally different entities by staffing and the way we run. Our guy's have to run everything from Ambulance to engine to squad and truck on a day to day basis, and do on a regular basis as the situation arises.
    We're just trying to operate in a little bit safer enviornment.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    8

    Default

    We currently have a population of 25,000 and ran the following in 2005 :

    EMS Transport - 3500 runs
    Fire (Includes EMS Assist) - 1500 runs

    We have 13 per shift (3 Shifts)

    2 Stations, 2 Engines, 1 Ladder, 2 medics

    Jason Kinley
    Xenia,Ohio

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    735

    Default

    Umm, 216 isnt busy. We got some units that average over 1000 calls per member assinged per year. This isnt a good way of arguing for increased staffing.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Umm, 216 isnt busy. We got some units that average over 1000 calls per member assinged per year. This isnt a good way of arguing for increased staffing.


    If you take the total number of calls and divide it by the number of men on th e line, it will give you the total average number of calls per man per year. I'm not doubting that you guys are busy, but even if you look at Columbus' numbers, they are running an "average" of 80 calls per man per year.
    Please list you total number of calls and manpower so we can figure an average.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    735

    Default

    9540 calls 8 members assigned
    9219 calls 8 members assigned
    8987 calls 8 members assigned
    8983 calls 8 members assigned

    should I continue?

    Its not a good way to argue for increase staffing. You should be arguing based on accepted methods of deployment. You only have 15 members, not obviously all working at the same time. How many members do you need to properly fight a dwelling fire? Now, how many do you have on duty? Work to even the two out. Saying we are busy doesnt mean you need more guys, saying we arent doing the proper job because of staffing level means you need more guys. Im not saying you dont need more guys. I just think youre going about it the wrong way.
    Last edited by PFDTruck18; 01-24-2006 at 12:47 AM.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default

    As I've stated in previous posts, our main concern is that we are continually left with one or no firefighter/paramedics left in the station due to constantly being out on calls. We are not basing our argument for needing more staff solely on the statistics of how many calls per man per year we run. We are using this information as part of a total package to show "ALL" the area's that we have a deficiet in and why we need to increase our staffing.
    Personally I think it would be pretty stupid to go in with an argument for more staffing based on one fact or with only one argument. We are doing our homework and gathering as many facts as possible to prove why we need to add more staffing. This just happens to be one of the stat's we're trying to present.
    I would assume that you're from a large department (truck company 18 perhaps?) and there's really no comparison from a large department to a smaller suburban department. We run totally different than a large department such as Chicago, New York, Phoenix, Philadelphia etc. We don't have the luxury of having personnell assigned to specific "Units" whether it be an Ambulance, Truck, Engine or Squad. As any departments similar to ours will tell you, we have to run everything. On any given day we can be on any or all of our apparatus and many times are, although it's usually on the ambulance.

    I'm not using this forum to start any arguments as to who runs the most calls, because I can tell you that we don't run the most calls and yes there are definitely departments out there that run a lot more calls.
    I can tell you that we are a busy department as any of the towns surrounding us can attest to, and we need to add members to our department to increase the safety of our staff as well as providing better service to our community.
    My original request is for stats pertaining to Population served, total number of calls and total number of staff.
    If you want to leave this information, please feel free to do so.
    If you don't, thanks for stopping by and don't go away mad....

  21. #21
    Finch the Computer Guy
    BFD1581's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    City of Beacon, NY
    Posts
    38

    Default We Are Tryin Too

    16,000 people in 5 sq miles -> Located in NYC's northern suburbs - Dutchess Cnty

    - We ran 1,600 runs (Fire/ EMS Support - 40/60 Ratio).
    - We run with 3 guys a shift with three stations and 2 engines, 1 reserve engine, a tower ladder, and a rescue.

    However due to the status quo, we have been running with 12 guys, 3 per shift since we have had paid guys in the dept in 1913! The difference is that in 1913 we had 300 really active volunteers and now we have maybe 20 really active volunteers (Of those 20 - Maybe 5 or 6 are good interior guys).

    Any suggestions????
    Jason
    Paid Professional Firefighter/ EMT
    Department Computer Administrator
    City of Beacon, NY Fire Department (IAFF Local 3490)

    http://www.BeaconFD.org (Department's Website)
    http://www.BeaconCareerFirefighters.o rg (Job's Union Site)

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    7

    Default

    14 Stations....~ 400 personnel...population ~ 240,000...~35 square miles...3 shifts, 4 Battalion Chiefs, 14 Engine Companies, 7 Ladder Companies, 2 Heavy Rescues, 11 Medic Units, 1 Haz-Mat Unit, 1 Command Bus, 2 Fireboats, 1 Building Ventilation Unit.....40,000 calls total...60% EMS and 40% Fire...
    My Station Stats:
    Engine 11: 2429 runs for 2005
    Medic 11: 3412 runs for 2005

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SFDredhat126's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PFDTruck18
    9540 calls 8 members assigned
    9219 calls 8 members assigned
    8987 calls 8 members assigned
    8983 calls 8 members assigned
    Eric,

    These are irrelevant in your situation. They are run numbers for medic units in Philadelphia. This pertains to a city that has 40 medic units and dedicated engine and truck personnel. It's a bit different in South Holland. You are in a situation where if a third call comes in while two units are out, you don't have enough people to even respond.

    Get all the information you can. Use the AFFI to your advantage, that's why they're there. Good luck. Anytime a department pushes for more staffing, your fellow union members should give you their full backing.

    Did you request the information I suggested through email?

    Mike

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SFDredhat126
    Eric,

    These are irrelevant in your situation. They are run numbers for medic units in Philadelphia. This pertains to a city that has 40 medic units and dedicated engine and truck personnel. It's a bit different in South Holland. You are in a situation where if a third call comes in while two units are out, you don't have enough people to even respond.

    Get all the information you can. Use the AFFI to your advantage, that's why they're there. Good luck. Anytime a department pushes for more staffing, your fellow union members should give you their full backing.

    Did you request the information I suggested through email?

    Mike
    Thanks Mike
    I figured they were city numbers.
    I did send an e-mail but have not received a response yet. I was going to send another unless you could check to make sure the original got through.
    Thanks again - Eric

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South Holland, Illinois
    Posts
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BFD1581
    16,000 people in 5 sq miles -> Located in NYC's northern suburbs - Dutchess Cnty

    - We ran 1,600 runs (Fire/ EMS Support - 40/60 Ratio).
    - We run with 3 guys a shift with three stations and 2 engines, 1 reserve engine, a tower ladder, and a rescue.

    However due to the status quo, we have been running with 12 guys, 3 per shift since we have had paid guys in the dept in 1913! The difference is that in 1913 we had 300 really active volunteers and now we have maybe 20 really active volunteers (Of those 20 - Maybe 5 or 6 are good interior guys).

    Any suggestions????
    Unfortunately, it sounds like your in the same boat we are. It took the Ex-mayor's wife having a heart attack and having to wait 15 minutes for an ambulance to get us to minimum 5 man staffing.
    Unless you've got a Chief that's in good with the Village Administration or a trustee or Village Board member that's on the FD, you can pretty much rely on the fact that the Administration doesn't understand the way the FD works.
    The only recommendation I would make is to collect as much info as you can (they love statistics) and show what the norm is in the Fire Service and how many times your station(s) are left unattended with no one to respond. Also look at the number of delays in response time on calls where there was nobody available to respond and the reason for it. The more detrimental facts you can gather, the stronger your case becomes.
    The sad thing about it is that it usually takes someone dying and the family suing the Village because they didn't respond in a timely manner for them to even acknowlege that there is a problem. Hopefully you can get it resolved before it comes to that.
    Good Luck - Eric

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Wanted National Jr./cadet/explorer Run Stats Wanted
    By ENG63TRK in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-07-2005, 01:35 PM
  2. Have you ever been on a fire trucks last run?
    By Firefighter1219 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 03-29-2005, 11:30 PM
  3. Pay Per Run
    By backdraft663 in forum Fire Explorer & Jr. Firefighting
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-28-2003, 03:27 PM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 07-26-03
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-30-2003, 07:51 AM
  5. 2000 Run Stats
    By Engine 101 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-13-2002, 04:33 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register