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  1. #21
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    Echoing Dalmation--makes it really nice to be a volunteer. Time clock and schedules don't get in the way of doing what's got to be done. For the career side, this kind of situation kind of creates a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" setting. A brother shouldn't have to be put in that kind of trap.
    (yeah, there has to be some rules to control free-lancing and self-deploying. Somebody's gotta be in charge.)
    Bottom line--i think one of the two towns should step up for him. Opinion only, no legal basis for it.
    earl


  2. #22
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    First of all, for everyone on here saying he should have just not done anything and put himself in that position, I 'd like to see you do what you say. Like any one of you would have been in his position and just said "sucks to be them but I might not be covered by an insurance claim if I get hurt." Please, spare me. I know I would have done the same thing as would just about anyone I know.

    I think the first agency that should be covering him is West Warwick since it was their commander that told him to do it. If they told him to get the hell out of the way and he did it anyway, the would be different. But thats not the case.

    Dal90, shoot me an email.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  3. #23
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    I have been in the position of being "on-scene" of another jurisdictions incident when it occurs or shortly afterwards, and have helped, but I knew that in all liklihood I would not be covered by my home department if I was injured or killed. What he did was certainly heroic and quite simply, something that most odf us would have done, but again, to me he was acting as a private citizen, much as probably we all have done more than once in our career. It is a gamble, and 95% of the time we win it, but there are times when we lose, and this appears to be one of them.

    It would seem to me that in this case the union needs to step up to the plate and help out the brother.

  4. #24
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    The Union IS doing their job. Its the city and the arbitrator that are wrong.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  5. #25
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    Orange ...

    We are fully covered anytime the department is dispatched, which includes/included mutual aid requests. It's that way here, and was that way when I was on departments in NY and Vermont. This even includes an injury occured in an MVA in our POVs after the tones have hit. Here in LA, we are also covered if come upon an MVA or fire while we are travelling in a department vehicle to a training program or on an errand out of the district.

    I have read posters saying that they are only covered when operating in thier own districts, which seems sorta strange to me. As long as they are dispatched, it would seem to me that they are covered, but as I have seen here, different states and communties certainly do things in different ways.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-18-2006 at 07:51 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelFire
    I believe there is a morally right answer (to the firefighter) and a financially right answer (to the taxpayers) and they are not the same. Our department has a policy that if we come upon an emergency scene and we are hurt performing work we are trained to do, then we are covered by the city's workman's comp.
    Even in another city?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    First of all, for everyone on here saying he should have just not done anything and put himself in that position, I 'd like to see you do what you say. Like any one of you would have been in his position and just said "sucks to be them but I might not be covered by an insurance claim if I get hurt." Please, spare me. I know I would have done the same thing as would just about anyone I know.
    Who said that?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    I am sure all of you would just stand there with your thumbs up your *** if faced with the same situation. Actually...Maybe some of you would
    That isn't the point of this thread or the story. No one here has said they wouldn't have acted on this too.

  9. #29
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    If the city of Cranston wants to argue that Burgess was not an "employee" at the time, then fine; let him file on group health and the city pick up his deductibles.
    Burgess should not have to pay a DIME out of his own pocket.
    And the stakes could sky rocket if Burgess decides to get an attorney and goes after the city fathers.
    CR
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  10. #30
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefReason
    And the stakes could sky rocket if Burgess decides to get an attorney and goes after the city fathers.
    CR
    ........now that could make it interesting !!!!!
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  11. #31
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    1) Ok, I'll stir some more crap. Was he at the bar drinking? Would he still be considered "on-duty" IF he had been drinking? There's a few unknown's in this issue. Will be interesting to see how far this goes.

    Ok, given the fact that the mutt Mayor of Cranston is also running for U.S. Senate (I believe challenging Lincoln Chafee for the Republican Nomination).

    Are you saying, Bonesy, that this will become a Rhode Island version of TURK-182...boy the Farraley brothers would have fun filming it. Already can see the Newport Bridge in lights now

    2) if joe citizen is ordered to pull a hose line by a fire officer (say they were buddies growing up), should the hosting department have to pay for any mental or physical injuries he should sustain?

    Yes.

    CT State Statutes specifically idemnify civilians pressed into working forest fires by a State Fire Warden to be considered State Employees for the purposes of workers comp.

    For a structural situation, you're department's general liability insurance would be making the payments -- remember, worker's comp is essentially no-fault so you receive it in lieu of the right to sue for injuries sustained.

    3) Do your towns pay claims arising from M/A?

    In Connecticut, it's required by state statutes. The Town in which the fire company you belong to is located is responsible for worker's comp, irregardless of where the injury occurs.

    Now, when I stop at an accident or such in Mass, which I think I've done more than in CT...I'm on my own if injured or exposed since I'm not under CT law at that point.

    4) This isn't a situation he went looking for trouble, or turned out from a bar because the pager went out. It found him, bang, there it is.

    The right thing to do is to pay the claim. Next time one of your firefighters is involved with a 100 death mass casualty event that occurs where he is standing, worry about the past precedence then.

    Thumbs up to the Florida law.

    5) E-mail sent momentarily NM!

  12. #32
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    Moraly.....I think the city should pay for his injuries.

    HOWEVER

    We all know that every city in America is looking for every excuse it can to not pay benefits to the people that work for them. Not to mention all the "suit happy" individuals just looking for a payday. I hate having to choose when to put my conscious aside, but my family comes first. As much as it hurts me, I do not, and will not, involve myself in ANY emergency of ANY kind while off duty...period.

    Thank our legislators for letting it get to this.
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    CALL THE RESCUE CO.!!!!!

  13. #33
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    The city says they will not cover him because he was "off duty", but I bet if he was to get into trouble with the law when "off duty" they would be bringing Department charges against him. What's the difference between the two?

  14. #34
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmatian190
    The right thing to do is to pay the claim. Next time one of your firefighters is involved with a 100 death mass casualty event that occurs where he is standing, worry about the past precedence then.
    Well said.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  15. #35
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    What would have happened if Burgess refused the order from the West Warwick LT.? For sure he would have been named in some kind of suit for refusing and order. I am sure the "Duty to act" phrase would have been mentioned more than once and Cranston would have tried to fire him somehow. There was no winning in his situation. Either he helps and gets no protection or he can watch a hundred humans burn to their deaths and live with that his whole life. He did the right thing morally and now politicians show their true colors. Just another case of politicians not human being running things. Rest assured if an off duty firefighter died in that fire trying to help it would have been made a LODD and Mayor Laffey would be the first one in line to put his face in the limelight praising this Firefighter for political gain. The right thing to do would be to cover this firefighter and his family.

  16. #36
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    Echoing Dalmation--makes it really nice to be a volunteer. Time clock and schedules don't get in the way of doing what's got to be done. For the career side, this kind of situation kind of creates a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" setting. A brother shouldn't have to be put in that kind of trap.
    (yeah, there has to be some rules to control free-lancing and self-deploying. Somebody's gotta be in charge.)
    Bottom line--i think one of the two towns should step up for him. Opinion only, no legal basis for it.
    earl
    Not being from the US, I may be a bit out of whack here, but isn't there potential from the WTC incident with all the FF's that responded that weren't on roster, changing shift and staying back, etc?
    Luke

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebFire
    Even in another city?
    The city policy does not state any boundary or limitations except only that (emergency) assistance is rendered

  18. #38
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    1) I would have done the same thing he did.
    2) I would not expect my town to cover injuries that I received in another town "helping out".
    3) It would be nice, but I would not expect the other town to cover the injuries UNLESS I was officially asked to help and conformed to their policies. I'm fairly sure that a guy without any PPE and not assigned any position in my department would not be conforming to our policies.
    4) I would have done the same thing he did.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuelFire
    The city policy does not state any boundary or limitations except only that (emergency) assistance is rendered
    That is interesting to me. I see that alot of the other posters stated that their department has the same policy. To me, that doesn't make sense for the city to do.

    For instance, let's say I am employed by a city in Florida. I am vacationing in Las Vegas and a high rise fire breaks out nearby. I decide to go down and assist in evacuations. In the process, I break my leg and will be off work for a couple months.

    Why should the city be responsible for that? And where in the heck do they draw the line? If you hire a whack job tha listens to the scanner and chases volly depts fires (we have a career guy close that has done that), should be be covered as well?

    I guess we need to separate the business sense from the emotional thinkings. I am looking at it from business sense, and I can't figure out why this gentleman should be covered, other than from an emotional side.

  20. #40
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    How much could this co-pay really be for the PTSD treatment? Would not cost me more then $100, and I blow that randomly helping folks every three months or so, chaulk it up to doint the right thing in life, I don't expect anyone to pay me back except hopefully St. Peter might have a delux suite reserved for me when the time comes.'

    If a Union plumber burns himself helping out his neighbor install a hottub on the weekend, should his employer have to cover the treatment for the injury?
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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