When is a firefighter not a firefighter?

[jeeten1049]

Steve Burgess acted in "Good Faith." The problem arises with the contract this Steve and his local opperates under. If the contract clearly states, he is off duty, then he is of duty. If Cranston does not recognize recall or call back personnel, then Steve is outside of the contract and policy. I feel for Steve and what he has gone through. Been there, done that. Sometimes, you just have to lick your wounds and move on.

I see others have written about another incident. There are similarities and differentials in the comparisons. I also remember a movie made of a similar incident called "TURK 182." Again similar and different at the same time.

The City of Cranston has to watch for presidence, however, the contract could be renegotiated to hold case by case circumstances applicable. West Warwick has nothing to offer Steve, since he was not operating under thier perview. And as far as the insurance from the Station doing anything, there are cases of Firefighters hurt and killed at fires, where the owners and the insurance companies have been found not liable for payment, due to the job we do.

Steve is between the proverbial rock and hard place. If we had any type of brotherhood or family desire for our fellow Firefighters hurt while not on duty, we would take up a collection for him to assist in his medical bills.

[FireChick06]

I think this is ridiculous. Has anyone ever heard of the duty to act? Now I know by law he isn't required to help. But I would have done the same in that situation, and hope any other firefighter would also. The fact that he was ordered by an officer should also play a role. I don't care what department I am at, if an officer gives me an order, by damn I do it. He may not have been "on duty," but as a public servant I believe you are always on duty. This whole thing is just a bunch of penny pushing politicians trying to save a buck. This just isn't fair to Steve Burgess or his family. I don't think it's right that the city officials can't even take care of their own firefighters. They have no idea about the duties, heart or mindset of a firefighter. They are a special kind of people. I am sure they would think much different about this if one of them were in the club that night. They are in this business to help and save our communities. Isn't that enough there to at least pay for the damn medical bill? Steve did an awesome thing and I am proud to know that there are firefighters out there who don't just work when "on duty," but dedicate their lives to it.

[ta2edff]

What!!!!!!!!!! All I am hearing is BOTHERS talking about if a BROTHER was right or wrong. What city should foot the bill for his injuries. If he was a citizen at that time. So please tell me this. AM I only a BROTHER when I am on duty? No, I think not. Do we all belong to a different Union or the same Union with diffrent locals? All that should be mentioned here is Good job Steve. Don't worry about what city is going to take care of you. Because Your brothers from around the nation will help you. You shouldn't have worry about your hospital bills or which city is paying them. Because you acted as anyone of us would have. I challenge all brothers/Locals to step up up and help out a brother with a check to his local, come on what is 50.00 or 100.00 dollars. Not much to our locals but I bet it is more than enough to him and his Family. I'll be hitting up my local next shift.


"Let no day end without making a difference in someone else's life"
Fire Chief Bill Lanford

[Bones42]

Reading comprehension is a lost art. No one is saying he did wrong. Some are saying the town should pay a FF's costs, some are not. Let's try to stay on topic.

[fyrfytr462]

Well said kevmar, not all of the FDNY guys were on duty. If I remember correctly, many of them just went on the call before the All Call.

[CaptainMikey]

Here is another idea, Since the owners were found to be grosly NEGLIGENT in the fire. Have the owners pay up, the deserve to pay for any and all injuries that occured. BTW, anyone know where that case is in the courts right now?

In response to a thread earlier, if the department fired that guy, just think of the fire and Sh** storm that would start.

[SQUIRT100]

Why wasn't there a critical incident stress debriefing after the incident for all those involved including the fire fighter in question? I don't know if that would have helped him but you never know.

[freaky773]

being a firefighter isnt a normal job. you dont stop being a firefighter when go home from a shift, or when u take a holiday...you are still a firefighter, and always will be. if you have the skills, you should use them. firefighting isnt about whether you are getting paid or not, or whether you are officially on duty. firefighting is about saving lifes. those hundreds of people lifes are obviously way more important than following the official guidelines of the department, which would result in 2 firefighters responding for the first few minutes! Burgress had the skills to help out, he is a firefighter and is trained, and obviously has experience. it would be stupid for him to endanger other peoples lifes by not acting because he is not officially on duty. mabye he did go overboard by staying in the heat and danger as long as he did, but essentially he did the right thing for humanity, by trying to save other humans lifes. would it be wrong for a cop to stand by and watch a criminal mug somebody? would it be wrong for a doctor to walk past a person having a heart attack and not help because he is on his lunch break? of course it would be. the city chould stop thinking about its own finances and think about the lifes of its citizens. surely they are worth more then a few hundred dollars to give a hero his medical attention....

[jbradc]

What!!!!!!!!!! All I am hearing is BOTHERS talking about if a BROTHER was right or wrong. What city should foot the bill for his injuries. If he was a citizen at that time. So please tell me this. AM I only a BROTHER when I am on duty? No, I think not. Do we all belong to a different Union or the same Union with diffrent locals? All that should be mentioned here is Good job Steve. Don't worry about what city is going to take care of you. Because Your brothers from around the nation will help you. You shouldn't have worry about your hospital bills or which city is paying them. Because you acted as anyone of us would have. I challenge all brothers/Locals to step up up and help out a brother with a check to his local, come on what is 50.00 or 100.00 dollars. Not much to our locals but I bet it is more than enough to him and his Family. I'll be hitting up my local next shift.


"Let no day end without making a difference in someone else's life"
Fire Chief Bill Lanford

I totally agree, I understand this is a "disusssion" but at the same time why don't we as brothers just pony up and help FF Burgess ourselves. That would solve all the problems and stop the arguing. Whatever happened to taking care of our own. If anyone has any information on where to send donations or who to contact please leave the info. I know my dept will be more than happy to help out.

[ybarrajoseph]

Assist initially get people to evacuate, then back out of the way when resources arrive. You don't have protective clothing so if your close your to the action your problably going to get hurt. Our dept. is clear on what an off duty firefighter is to do if confronted with this situation. Come on when you are on duty if you don't have your stuff (PPE) you stand on the sidelines. No Helmet, gloves or boots you are just asking to get hurt and you become part of the problem.

Use some common sense and if you take a risk you know the consequences.
You open pandora's box if you start compensating off duty firefighters next he will be on the roof ventillating and fall through then what? No freelancing that's why people get hurt.

Los Angeles, Ca.

[rifireguy]

There was CIS debriefing for all responders, don't know if Burgess took advantage of it.

[WVfyreman]

We are trained to help in times of need. I have been doing this since 1988 and not one time have I thought" I dont feel like helping". This is what we do. The city has an obligation to cover him.Legally and morally. would anyone here not do the same thing in the same situation?? I thought so. hey just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

[cschultz]

I believe that an officer in one jurisdiction can "comandeer" a firefighter from another jurisdiction knowing the person is a duly qualified firefighter. My concern is the fact that he had no proper PPE and that is where the line should be drawn.

[HeavyRescueTech]

Well said kevmar, not all of the FDNY guys were on duty. If I remember correctly, many of them just went on the call before the All Call.

yes, and it made accountability a nightmare when the towers came down, as you didn't know what additional personnel were on the rigs.

but your comparing apples to oranges, in the case of 9/11, the call was in their coverage area, and they had proper PPE.

in this case, he was not in his home town (where he worked) and he had no PPE.

btw, the fact that west warrick was short handed (two on a rig)isn't really a factor. they know this, their higher ups know this, and while it does suck, it's how they operate.

It doesn't change the situation, he helped out of the goodness of his heart, and his employer shouldn't pay for his medical expenses. now west warrick, that would be a different story.

[tyler101]

Has anyone noticed the amount of first time posters on this thread? There have been quite a few!

[jercvfd]

Do Es Anyone See Where This Is Going ? Some People Need To Take A Step Back And Look At The Priorities. Good Question Where Is The Line Drawn When It Is Hard Too See The Boundry. Citizens Taxpayers All Want Us To Help When Someone Is In Need, No Matter If Your On Duty Or Not.but If One Of Us Gets Hurt Its Our Own Responsibility. So What Do We Do Now? We Pick And Choose Our Battles Now? Ever Heard Of A Term Called Abandonment? Damned If You , Damned If You Don't. Pay The Man What He Is Owed.

[DennisTheMenace]

Do Es Anyone See Where This Is Going ? Some People Need To Take A Step Back And Look At The Priorities. Good Question Where Is The Line Drawn When It Is Hard Too See The Boundry. Citizens Taxpayers All Want Us To Help When Someone Is In Need, No Matter If Your On Duty Or Not.but If One Of Us Gets Hurt Its Our Own Responsibility. So What Do We Do Now? We Pick And Choose Our Battles Now? Ever Heard Of A Term Called Abandonment? Damned If You , Damned If You Don't. Pay The Man What He Is Owed.

Your typing teacher must be proud.

No one is saying his treatment should not be covered, but rather we are DEBATING who is responsible for the treatment. The town of the incident or the town of the employeer.

[drezqmn]

to the best of my knowledge, career firefighters work assigned shifts. they must respond to all calls that happen during their shift. They are not required to respond to calls (even big fires) that occur when they are not on shift (the exception being if an official call back is requested). In fact, I would imagine some departments do not allow a career FF to respond to calls when he is not scheduled to be on shift. I would imagine they have this policy for this very reason, among others.


Actually, it depends on not only fire department fules and regulations. You have to look at Civil Service as well as the city/town rules and regulations. I am a career firefighter and I in our civil service rules (all of which are not always enforeced, but that's another topic!) we are required to render aid as well as to "respond for duty" when called upon. To up the ante, it even states that though you may be "technically off-duty" that does not relieve us of having to perform our duty when something comes to our attention.

Failure to follow these rules can have the consezuenses up to and including termination. Unfotuantely, it dosen't state whethe this is applicable just in our district or not.

[drezqmn]

to the best of my knowledge, career firefighters work assigned shifts. they must respond to all calls that happen during their shift. They are not required to respond to calls (even big fires) that occur when they are not on shift (the exception being if an official call back is requested). In fact, I would imagine some departments do not allow a career FF to respond to calls when he is not scheduled to be on shift. I would imagine they have this policy for this very reason, among others.


Actually, it depends on not only fire department fules and regulations. You have to look at Civil Service as well as the city/town rules and regulations. I am a career firefighter and I in our civil service rules (all of which are not always enforeced, but that's another topic!) we are required to render aid as well as to "respond for duty" when called upon. To up the ante, it even states that though you may be "technically off-duty" that does not relieve us of having to perform our duty when something comes to our attention.

Failure to follow these rules can have the consezuenses up to and including termination. Unfotuantely, it dosen't state whethe this is applicable just in our district or not.

[florian11]

Off duty police officers react to crimes in progress all the time. What is the basic difference? Let's say that Mayor Laffey's or Mr. Grimes' daughter is being forcibly raped and an off-duty police officer can stop the crime? What the Mayor and Mr. Grimes is saying..."Hey Police Officer...you're not on duty! Let my daughter get raped!" I wonder what old Ben Franklin is thinking now? By the way, you can "deputize" a citizen to be a temporary firefighter. I have done it many years ago as a volunteer fire chief. Our firefighter insurance carrier had that clause in the policy.