Thread: Hose kinking

  1. #26
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    MG3610,

    The reason we limit our 2 1/2 tips to 1 1/8th is safety and mobility. Handlines which have flows approaching 350gpm are by most safety standards (not just ours...I learned this years before joining the FDNY) considered a master stream and the reaction force and mobility are such that it is more productive to have them flowing 250gpm. This gives us mobility and doesn't create a handline that can't be handled and advanced down a hallway into an appartment. We don't typically sit on our 2 1/2"s in the front yard they are an attack hoseline and are used as such.

    If one was just going to make a coil and sit on it in the front yard for exposures protection or whatever then one could use the 1 1/4 tip and get the 320-350gpm safely.

    As for the argument that one doesn't really need a tip much smaller than the hose itself. This I thought was a common accepted rule accross the country. I know most texts based on years of experience and nozzle hydraulics understand and support the need for a smaller tip which will help focus the stream and create the reach and penetration. I know all the fire service hydraulic books I've read are consistant on this and I until now was unaware of any dept teaching its members that the tip can be in some cases much much larger than the hose...can one get away with it...sure there is a level of safety built into our operations...but sooner or later it will catch up to you.

    That is why the stack tips for 2 1/2 hose sold by most manufacutres come with a 1 1/4" 1 1/8" & 1" stacked tips...because one would loose necessary penetration and stream compactness necessary to get the majority of the water on the objective.

    This isn't an FDNY thing vs everyone else...I learned this concept proably in the IFSTA manuals years ago and I can't imagine how it would have been changed since.

    FTM-PTB

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    After re-reading some posts here......I think I may need to add a point to my previous one. I am refering to making aggressive pushes down hallways and into fire apartments flowing no greater than 250gpm. I wasn't think about using a vindicator or mercury or whatever and loobing water from the street.

    I just know that making an aggressive push down a hall and into a few rooms of fire with a tip more that 1/2 the dia of the hose will be difficult and dangerous. I know for us it is atleast.....one reason is b/c once we open the line....it stays open...that means if you have to make 3 rooms...then you do it w/ the line open then entire time.....I know in my company there is not open up, hit it, shut down, move in, open up and repeat....maybe that's just us....I don't know.

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    VinnieB...

    Sure...do what you want I could care less, its your skin not mine.......and yes you seem to be searching for another fight....and I am starting to find it very hard to be polite.
    No, I am not looking for a fight. I can be a whole hell of a lot more blunt if I wanted a fight. Be as polite or impolite as you want. I am a big boy I can take it.

    In the community my volly FD protects we don't have high rises or tenaments or row houses or malls. What we do has proven successful for us. The 2 inch with a 200 gpm combo nozzle gives a hard hit. It allows us a rapid advance to the seat of the fire and then that much flow kills the fire. How we utilize the 1 1/4 inch slug is far different than the way you use the 1 1/8 inch tip and 2 1/2 handlines. We don't use 2 1/2 at all. If the 200 from the combo, or the move hit, partially close the nozzle, move hit, doesn't get it with the 290 gpm from the slug, we go right to a pocket monitor and flow up to 500 gpm.

    Am I suggesting you do that? At either of your FD's? Nope. What I am suggesting is that what we do works for us. We are short handed many times during the day and we don't have 3 or 4 crews to move handlines. We flow the most water we can with the crews we have.

    I have tried to respect the fact that over and over you guys from the FDNY have told people don't do what we do because New York is different than anywhere else. Yet when someone else suggests a way different from what you do you tend to tell them it can't work, even if they have long history of it working. So please tell me which way is it? Don't so what you do, or do what you do? I am confused on where it is you guys actually stand on that. But not confused at all on what we will do.

    Stay safe....

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    VinnieB...



    I have tried to respect the fact that over and over you guys from the FDNY have told people don't do what we do because New York is different than anywhere else. Yet when someone else suggests a way different from what you do you tend to tell them it can't work, even if they have long history of it working. So please tell me which way is it? Don't so what you do, or do what you do? I am confused on where it is you guys actually stand on that. But not confused at all on what we will do.

    Stay safe....

    FyredUp

    It has nothing to do with "here or there", its when it comes to the basics I get annoyed. Things such as the PPV thread, all the smoothbore posts, ladder ops, etc. And honestly....I may be a bit biased to busier depts/companies. Experiance is built from going to work, not from reading books or conducting drills.....and much like the military, no amount of training is like the "real" thing. And no disrespect to anyone, (this is just MY opinion, It is a bit arrogant I guess, and is not be shared by everyone on my job) I have a hard time accepting the phrase "it works for us" from depts/companies that only see a dozen or so fires a year. I have come across many guys who have 20 years in the fire service but have been to only 10 fires.....and I know guys who have been around for 50 years....and have never been in a burning building....and my favorite, guys with 2 years in the fire service who know everything.....how is thier "experiance" worth anything. I would expect the same from....say a CDF member if I were speaking about wildland fires....sure I have been to a few (in the vollies), but not enough in my opinion to have a credibal voice. When I have done training in the past for places other than my vollie dept, I have come across many people who give me the same answer, I give them the benefit of the doubt and say hey great...show me.....and most of the time, they can't execute. (Actually this just happend about 2 weeks ago in my current vollie company, with regards to search rope techniques).

    I have never imposed FDNY ops on anyone. Remeber that before the city, I vollied in 2 depts for 14 years, one rural and slow, and one rather large and busy. And the guys I work with come from all kinds of firefighting backgrounds, vollies and paidmen from other states. And in 24hrs....you can trade alot of info. Most of the books I have read state what I have been saying (w/ regards to this topic). I even remember taking a few class given by AKRON that state the same.....and the cool part about those is that they guy has every appliance you can think of and you can try anything you want.

    And if FDNY guys seem to be harsh....sorry about that....thats just the nature of being a New Yorker.

    Now.....with all that said.....can you fudge numbers YES. Some hose performs better than others, there is 1 3/4 line out there that is rated at less than 20 psi FL per 50' and weigh less too....and depending on your pump capacity and water systems......you can achieve better results than what the books say. You can also add concentrates to you tank that reduce FL....giving you better results.....there are all type of variables. But....again...remember that nozzles are venturis.....and that's straight science.....

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    VinnieB...

    Okay if your implication is that I am a 2/20 guy don't go there. I am a 27 year fire service veteran with 15 years career and 26 as a volly. I have both rural and "Big City" experience. While a foundation of what I know of course came from training and books, practical experience has been the key for me in knowing what works and what doesn't.

    I have said it at least 3 times in the PPV thread, it is not for every fire and frankly if you don't want to use it, don't. Because your ops say it is wrong for you doesn't make it wrong for everyone else.

    As for fire attack and how we fight fire I will personally extend you an offer to visit if you are ever in Wisconsin. I would be happy to show you how the hicks in the country fight fire. I am sure they would love to hear you say how what we have been doing for 7 years doesn't work.

    It doesn't natter to me if you think what we do doesn't work, because my FD knows it does. It doesn't matter to me that your response in another thread was STFU, or that you want to claim being harsh is okay because that is the way New Yorkers talk, or that you admit to be arogant and big city biased. Frankly, from this point on I will look at anything you post with a jaundiced eye because regardless of what anyone else says if it isn't your way it is wrong. You claim I am looking for a fight yet at every turn you attack what I have to say. Maybe you should STFU.

    Even after all that, I would still buy you a beer and wish you well.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    I have tried to respect the fact that over and over you guys from the FDNY have told people don't do what we do because New York is different than anywhere else. Yet when someone else suggests a way different from what you do you tend to tell them it can't work, even if they have long history of it working. So please tell me which way is it? Don't so what you do, or do what you do? I am confused on where it is you guys actually stand on that. But not confused at all on what we will do.

    Stay safe....

    FyredUp
    FyredUp,

    This isn't necessarily directed towards you or your department...however I will agree there are a few that feel the same as you do on here. And not that you are a 2/20 guy...but there are a few on here.

    I've related this before but I'll explain where I'm comming from. I worked for many years in much smaller and much slower departments where I currently work. I learned many things and were taught many things and even though we weren't what I would consider busy...I saw a reasonable amount of fire and I saw alot of issues arrise at fires that had been or were being addressed in the FD journals, Texts, FDIC...etc.

    We(my former depts) had many times...mistakes and misjudgements that were overlooked. Myself and others would bring these issues to the attention of others and were ignored or dismissed with we've done just fine with it up until now...why change. This stood true for fires where I was at where there were two lines but no one had hooks or tools. Searches weren't done, or done poorly. Two lines were stretched and charged before the fire was found and it was discovered the fire was beneath us and there was no access to the cellar from our floor! I've had PPV almost kill or burn me a number of times...even with guys who "are experienced" with it. I've had fog tips steam me...had them clog up at a fire...seen and experienced the differecne. Chiefs completely mismange a scene using supposed IMS, had prepied foam not work, Burned due to the encapuslation Bunker gear, Stretched two lines at once instead of working on getting one line in operation...seen the lack of direction and experience with pre-control overhaul and how a fire will burn a house down right in front of your eyes because certain "chiefs" don't understand the concept of getting ahead of the fire. I've had cheifs state that in their experience fog tips and 2 1/2 aren't needed in their highrises (Despite that they've had 3 small fires in 20 years and despite having the same hazzards that every highrise in NY has including HIGH winds)

    Today I read or hear a recount of a fire that goes bad either in journals or from my friends in large and small cities alike. I think of relating how my department and our procedures would have tackled the same fire and many times while we can't say for sure it would have changed the outcome of any particular fire...our operations were based on preventing the situations that occured to my friends for example. Who burned down a bar in taxpayer because they were afraid of opening up the cockloft from above and below and checking the returns to "limit damage!". Had an explosion of sorts for using a fog into a confined attic fire which gave a tremendous rush of O2 causing an exposion which forced the celing to collapse on them. Friends who had to return to the rig for tools because they don't take any until they know what they have. Fog tip on aerial stream turned to steam instead of the smoothbores that penetrated. Guy's laid into a fire and had poor pressure instead of sitting one of the many Engines not in use on a hydrant. Stretching 1 3/4 when 2 1/2 was clearly called for. Had some old lady die because the guys searching didn't know to search behind the door!...etc. the list goes on and on.

    The reason many of us are so adamant is because the concept of "Its another tool in the tool box" has become an excuse to use any tactic despite it not passing tactical reviews on paper or in real world execution. Either us or our depts collective experince has shown...X to be good and Y to be bad...and little of it has to do with our staffing or size of our city. It has to do with what works well 1000s of times and has been shown to be a safe operation.

    I've always stated there are things we do here that I don't advocate for everyone and on those occasions I'm adamant not to do as I do.

    For me I can say the only reason I'm such an advocate for certain procedures is because I don't want to see a brother hurt or them to burn down a house with a less than safe or effective tactic. I've worked on both ends and I see many benefits of certain procedures..that is why I advocate them so passionately. I've been to too many funerals...as I'm sure you have as well. Thats all.

    FTM-PTB

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    sry guys but i have to say something.


    does it really matter whoes hose is bigger or nozzle, as long as we show up to the job we signed up to do and do it WE ALL COME HOME you use what ever technique we need to get our job done and save some ones property with out us as BROTHER FIREFIGHTERS GETTING INJURED OR WORSE.
    there that comes from a rookie compared to the years you guy put down

    8 years on
    1st LT of a proud VOLLIE Department in small town in VT

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    VinnieB...

    Okay if your implication is that I am a 2/20 guy don't go there. I am a 27 year fire service veteran with 15 years career and 26 as a volly. I have both rural and "Big City" experience. While a foundation of what I know of course came from training and books, practical experience has been the key for me in knowing what works and what doesn't.

    I have said it at least 3 times in the PPV thread, it is not for every fire and frankly if you don't want to use it, don't. Because your ops say it is wrong for you doesn't make it wrong for everyone else.

    As for fire attack and how we fight fire I will personally extend you an offer to visit if you are ever in Wisconsin. I would be happy to show you how the hicks in the country fight fire. I am sure they would love to hear you say how what we have been doing for 7 years doesn't work.

    It doesn't natter to me if you think what we do doesn't work, because my FD knows it does. It doesn't matter to me that your response in another thread was STFU, or that you want to claim being harsh is okay because that is the way New Yorkers talk, or that you admit to be arogant and big city biased. Frankly, from this point on I will look at anything you post with a jaundiced eye because regardless of what anyone else says if it isn't your way it is wrong. You claim I am looking for a fight yet at every turn you attack what I have to say. Maybe you should STFU.

    Even after all that, I would still buy you a beer and wish you well.

    FyredUp

    Ok this is pointless, but its time to clear the air......you take everything I post as a direct attack on you...which it is not, they are generalizations and if you don't fit the those generalizations, then it should not let it bother you.....However you need thicker skin and stop taking everything so personnel. Just b/c I highlight your post only means I am commenting on your points and not you as a person. I have not called you a hick, hillbilly, or anyother term of endearment given to country folk, but you insist on making another post a Metro vs Rural argument. Here's a hot tip, I grew up 85 miles North of NYC....in the HILLS.....and I consider myself a hick, and most people think I am from Oklahoma when they meet me for the first time....my nickname in the house is woodchuck for petes sake! Not every fireman in NYC is from NYC, there are alot of us upstaters who live deep in the hills of the Catskills.

    After I reread your posts...I am convinced you have a bug about Metro FDs....you have went after metro like you are on a personel crusade of sorts to prove something, and you are constantly trying to compair yourself like its a contest. And you say you'll look at my post w/ jaundiced eye....you might want to stop and look at your own posts first. No matter what the content is.....you always come out with "You big city guys....", its getting tiresome......Most statements I have seen posted by the Metro Guys, have been supported and backed up with reasons....not just the statement...."It works for us".....that is much like the old saying...."It worked fourty years ago....."

    As for me....Some people seem my aggressiveness as agrrogance....but I don't care. I step up and I can back up what I say....and yes that is a New Yorker.....if people don't like that.....I don't care, I know how to get things done....but don't step on anyones toes.

    As for coming to Wisconsin, no problem. I would love for you guys to show me what you do....I am sure I'll see something new, but I hope everyone isn't as thin skinned as you and that they can answer my questions. Tell you what.....if you are EVER in NY or the NY Metro area.....PM me...you can come up to The Bronx and hang out....we'll feed ya' and maybe you'll be able to ride along. I think you will definatley change your view about us. And I am serious about this.....if you are ever in NY....PM me....I'll hook it up. I'll be interested in what you've been doing for 7 years....and I bet you'll be interested in what we've been doing for 141 years.

    Lastly....about "our" books. First off I was not exclusivly refering to "our" books. That statement included the IFSTA, NFPA, and manufacturers texts. Trust me....any FDNY firemen will tell you....there are things in our books that date back to the days of horses and are no longer practiced, and there are some methods that we would like to see "modernized"....they exist for a few reasons, Promotional Tests....and the nonsense games the Dept likes to play. Well...actually...change is not received well here....we are very traditional....and that's the way it is. Hell...I got yeld at by a senior man one day for asking to change the water filter to the coffee maker, he told me that terrible coffee is a tradition in this house, mind you...he ALWAYS bit@hes that the coffee is horrible and throws most of his cup out.

    And sure I'll drink a beer with you, but NO I will never STFU....I don't know how to.....and why start now.

    Stay Safe.....and don't take things so close to heart.


    ps here's a little insite to our procedures...maybe they will help you understand a bit about us......these aren't all of them and things have changed...but its an idea:

    http://sageauthoring.com/index.htm#Directory%20Lisitng

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFDFIREDOG
    BROTHER FIREFIGHTERS

    And brothers fight......its normal.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 02-11-2006 at 10:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    FyredUp,

    This isn't necessarily directed towards you or your department...however I will agree there are a few that feel the same as you do on here. And not that you are a 2/20 guy...but there are a few on here.

    I've related this before but I'll explain where I'm comming from. I worked for many years in much smaller and much slower departments where I currently work. I learned many things and were taught many things and even though we weren't what I would consider busy...I saw a reasonable amount of fire and I saw alot of issues arrise at fires that had been or were being addressed in the FD journals, Texts, FDIC...etc.

    We(my former depts) had many times...mistakes and misjudgements that were overlooked. Myself and others would bring these issues to the attention of others and were ignored or dismissed with we've done just fine with it up until now...why change. This stood true for fires where I was at where there were two lines but no one had hooks or tools. Searches weren't done, or done poorly. Two lines were stretched and charged before the fire was found and it was discovered the fire was beneath us and there was no access to the cellar from our floor! I've had PPV almost kill or burn me a number of times...even with guys who "are experienced" with it. I've had fog tips steam me...had them clog up at a fire...seen and experienced the differecne. Chiefs completely mismange a scene using supposed IMS, had prepied foam not work, Burned due to the encapuslation Bunker gear, Stretched two lines at once instead of working on getting one line in operation...seen the lack of direction and experience with pre-control overhaul and how a fire will burn a house down right in front of your eyes because certain "chiefs" don't understand the concept of getting ahead of the fire. I've had cheifs state that in their experience fog tips and 2 1/2 aren't needed in their highrises (Despite that they've had 3 small fires in 20 years and despite having the same hazzards that every highrise in NY has including HIGH winds)

    Today I read or hear a recount of a fire that goes bad either in journals or from my friends in large and small cities alike. I think of relating how my department and our procedures would have tackled the same fire and many times while we can't say for sure it would have changed the outcome of any particular fire...our operations were based on preventing the situations that occured to my friends for example. Who burned down a bar in taxpayer because they were afraid of opening up the cockloft from above and below and checking the returns to "limit damage!". Had an explosion of sorts for using a fog into a confined attic fire which gave a tremendous rush of O2 causing an exposion which forced the celing to collapse on them. Friends who had to return to the rig for tools because they don't take any until they know what they have. Fog tip on aerial stream turned to steam instead of the smoothbores that penetrated. Guy's laid into a fire and had poor pressure instead of sitting one of the many Engines not in use on a hydrant. Stretching 1 3/4 when 2 1/2 was clearly called for. Had some old lady die because the guys searching didn't know to search behind the door!...etc. the list goes on and on.

    The reason many of us are so adamant is because the concept of "Its another tool in the tool box" has become an excuse to use any tactic despite it not passing tactical reviews on paper or in real world execution. Either us or our depts collective experince has shown...X to be good and Y to be bad...and little of it has to do with our staffing or size of our city. It has to do with what works well 1000s of times and has been shown to be a safe operation.

    I've always stated there are things we do here that I don't advocate for everyone and on those occasions I'm adamant not to do as I do.

    For me I can say the only reason I'm such an advocate for certain procedures is because I don't want to see a brother hurt or them to burn down a house with a less than safe or effective tactic. I've worked on both ends and I see many benefits of certain procedures..that is why I advocate them so passionately. I've been to too many funerals...as I'm sure you have as well. Thats all.

    FTM-PTB
    FFFred...

    This was an awesome post and I appreciate everything you said. I understand that the FDNY is different than anywhere else and the hazards you have, mostly because of the variety of them, make what you guys do especcially hazardous. I can't question YOUR tactics and the equipment YOU use. It works for you guys because of the experience you have have and face it, the manpower you have too.

    Unfortunately for my volly FD we don't have 5 or 6 man companies very often. A good turnout for a fire may bring us 12 guys, sometimes more, sometimes less. Our choice of hose and nozzles was determined based on lack of staffing. We found that 2 guys could advance the 2 inch line with almost the same ease at the 1 3/4 inch line and could flow far more water if need be. It was determined that 2 guys would be hard pressed to advance and flow a 2 1/2 on the interior of a structure. Is it the best decision? For us, yes. For you guys in the FDNY? No, but then again your staffing, and the ability to call more rigs than in my entire county makes your tactics massively different. I am still working to get a 1 inch tip on the line instead of the combo nozzle. We don't face the issue of vandalized standpipes and 200 year old water mains like you guys do, so clogging hasn't been an issue...yet.

    As for PPV, generally, we use it post extinguishment to vent smoke. We had an attic fire that was quickly extinguished with no real need to vent the roof. We were having trouble clearing the smoke, so where an old attic window had been, but sided over, we punched out that siding, fired up the PPV fan and cleared the attic of smoke in less than 5 minutes. Of course we had a charged line and a crew ready in case of flare ups. I have agreed with much of what was said about PPV, in a ballon frame house their use can be devastating and spread frie throughout the building. In a cellar fire that can't be vented ahead of the fan it would be a poor choice. If there are victims ahead of the fan it would be a poor choice. The "another tool in the box" analogy is just a way of saying that it is there and when viable will be used. We vent roofs, we vent windows, we use negative pressure fans, all when the circumstances call for it. Honestly, horizontal venting through windows with a fog stream is probably used most often for a room and contents fire.

    Fog nozzles are a whole other story for me, the worst I have ever been burned involved a fog nozzle. Steamed the hell out of me. Nope, I wasn't on the nozzle. I still have FF's and instructors talk about the fog cone providing a shield of life....the mantra of left for life and right for fight is still strong here...stupid, dangerous, but still strong. My volly FD is taught straight streams inside of a structure.

    I have been pushing for a 2 inch tip on our aerials at work for years, yet we still use automatic combo nozzles. Why? Tradition. That is not a good enough answer for me.

    Incident Command, ICS, IMS, and now NIMS, the constant changing and shifting and different names for things we have known as something else for decades is to me frustrating. The one that gets me is people that say we never had Incident Command before these programs. My answer is BS, how did you ever run fires before all this stuff? I beleive in a structured incident management system and I believe in accountability. What I refuse to believe is that anyone can be an effective fire ground commander. Experience and knowledge from that experience is important, no crucial, to a good, sound incident commander. Too many book smart, field inexperienced, people are leading FF's that have the experience and they are getting guys that know better hurt, and losing buildings they have no business losing.

    Basic tactics, search, venting, laying lines for attack, supply procedures, are all things that we work on regularly. I wish I could say we never make a mistake, I wish I could say every incident goes like clockwork, but they don't. Most do, and when we screw up we look for reasons why and correct them. We have a major issue right now with water supply to a new county highway garage facility. It is roughly 480 by 250 by 40 foot high and there is one hydrant by this structure that supplies 900 gpm. Both the county AND our village board were warned this was not enough water to fight a fire in this building. Guess what they built it anyways and they put in a 1500 gpm fire pump. Brilliant right? Well we could sit here and say I told you so when it burns to the ground or we can try to solve the problem. While the village is looking at adding a tower and new mains(someday) that isn't soon enough for us. We are going to experiment with putting a folding tank by the hydrant and filling the tank from the hydrant and having another remote pumper and folding tanks supplied by tankers augment that water so that our new attack engine will be able to hopefully supply 1500 to 2000 gpm to that sprinkler system by drafting from the tank. Of course all other water to fight the fire will have to be tankered in also. Honestly I would love to know how you guys would deal with this. We can't go down the block and catch a 24 or 48 or 72 inch main because there aren't any. The only other hydrant is farther down the street from this facility and if we hook to that we are just robbing the 900 gpm hydrant.

    I understand your advocacy, I truly do. But understand our position too, I used to work as a CFR FF and our chief insisted we use the same tactics that they used at his former FD. They had 13 guys on duty at a time, we were lucky to have 4. It just didn't work his way. But he never got it. For us I wish I had 3 engines and a 2 trucks and a rescue at every call. But I don't I get an engine, a pumper tanker and a brush truck from my FD and then if needed, mutual aid. We do what we do because of our staffing. It makes no point to plan on 2 companies to move a 2 1/2 when if we do no one is left to do anything else. That from the beginning was what I was trying to say. I guess I did a crappy job saying it.

    Stay safe on the mean streets...

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp

    Too many book smart, field inexperienced, people are leading FF's that have the experience and they are getting guys that know better hurt, and losing buildings they have no business losing.

    Bro...that is what I am saying. So in the end, we do agree! Great post BTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    Ok this is pointless, but its time to clear the air......you take everything I post as a direct attack on you...which it is not, they are generalizations and if you don't fit the those generalizations, then it should not let it bother you.....However you need thicker skin and stop taking everything so personnel. Just b/c I highlight your post only means I am commenting on your points and not you as a person. I have not called you a hick, hillbilly, or anyother term of endearment given to country folk, but you insist on making another post a Metro vs Rural argument. Here's a hot tip, I grew up 85 miles North of NYC....in the HILLS.....and I consider myself a hick, and most people think I am from Oklahoma when they meet me for the first time....my nickname in the house is woodchuck for petes sake! Not every fireman in NYC is from NYC, there are alot of us upstaters who live deep in the hills of the Catskills.

    After I reread your posts...I am convinced you have a bug about Metro FDs....you have went after metro like you are on a personel crusade of sorts to prove something, and you are constantly trying to compair yourself like its a contest. And you say you'll look at my post w/ jaundiced eye....you might want to stop and look at your own posts first. No matter what the content is.....you always come out with "You big city guys....", its getting tiresome......Most statements I have seen posted by the Metro Guys, have been supported and backed up with reasons....not just the statement...."It works for us".....that is much like the old saying...."It worked fourty years ago....."

    As for me....Some people seem my aggressiveness as agrrogance....but I don't care. I step up and I can back up what I say....and yes that is a New Yorker.....if people don't like that.....I don't care, I know how to get things done....but don't step on anyones toes.

    As for coming to Wisconsin, no problem. I would love for you guys to show me what you do....I am sure I'll see something new, but I hope everyone isn't as thin skinned as you and that they can answer my questions. Tell you what.....if you are EVER in NY or the NY Metro area.....PM me...you can come up to The Bronx and hang out....we'll feed ya' and maybe you'll be able to ride along. I think you will definatley change your view about us. And I am serious about this.....if you are ever in NY....PM me....I'll hook it up. I'll be interested in what you've been doing for 7 years....and I bet you'll be interested in what we've been doing for 141 years.

    Lastly....about "our" books. First off I was not exclusivly refering to "our" books. That statement included the IFSTA, NFPA, and manufacturers texts. Trust me....any FDNY firemen will tell you....there are things in our books that date back to the days of horses and are no longer practiced, and there are some methods that we would like to see "modernized"....they exist for a few reasons, Promotional Tests....and the nonsense games the Dept likes to play. Well...actually...change is not received well here....we are very traditional....and that's the way it is. Hell...I got yeld at by a senior man one day for asking to change the water filter to the coffee maker, he told me that terrible coffee is a tradition in this house, mind you...he ALWAYS bit@hes that the coffee is horrible and throws most of his cup out.

    And sure I'll drink a beer with you, but NO I will never STFU....I don't know how to.....and why start now.

    Stay Safe.....and don't take things so close to heart.


    ps here's a little insite to our procedures...maybe they will help you understand a bit about us......these aren't all of them and things have changed...but its an idea:

    http://sageauthoring.com/index.htm#Directory%20Lisitng
    VinnieB...

    This whole battle between you and me has traveled across 3 or 4 threads. The rural / metro thing has been pushed as much by you as me. If you would read what I have said, particularly in the grants thread I think we agree more than disagree on the majority of issues. Metro should get the majority of terrorism money, no doubt in my mind. Hell we don't need it and frankly don't want it. As for the FIRE Act Grants, keep them as they are, competitive grants where whoever expresses their needs the best way and gets through the process gets a grant. THAT is my stance. No one department should get all of the money whether it is a metro FD or "The Middle of Nowhere VFD."

    AS far as being on a personal crusade against metro FD's, nope, not in the least. It would be actually self destructive since my career FD is considered a metro FD. My "crusade" as you choose to call it is solely based on the fairness of distribution of grant money to all qualifying FD's. YOUR state politicians have made speeches and public statements on issues demanding all of the grant money for FD's go to metro areas. Mine have not demanded that all of the money go to rural areas.

    As for your comments on "It works for us" being compared to "It worked forty years ago", common that is just plain silly. When I first joined here we had a skid load on 1200 feet o 2 1/2 in a single bed with a gated wye and 2-100 foot 1 1/2 inch lines with 60 gpm combo nozzles on them. They routinely used booster lines as the first line off for everything. Now we lay 5 inch hose, use 2 inch attack lines and a pocket deluge with 3 inch hose. The way it was always done doesn't carry weight with us if it doesn't work. We did research, field trials and used input from the FF's before we went to our system. That is why it works for us. If like I told FFFred we had your staffing and equipment (well on a proportion that fit our village) we may do what you do the way you do it. But with limited staffing and mutual aid 10 or more minutes away we do it this way. Tradition is a guide for us, but by no means a jailer. All we have to do here is for someone to find a better or easier way and for us to try it, show it works and BANG we do it. I fully understand change comes easier in a 20 man FD than in one of 12,000.

    I appreciate aggressiveness, I am obviously very aggressive myself. By the way YOU called yourself arrogant, I just used your own line. I prefer to be called egotistical(lighten up it's a joke son). We too know how to get things done because we are getting it done.

    Let me know if you ever make it out this way. I would be happy to show you what we do and along with me many of our guys would love to share our philosophy with a Big City Fahrman!! As for coming to New York I was supposed to be coming their in April with my son for a school trip but, well things didn't pan out and he doesn't want to go. I had already told the teacher in charge to figure on me disappearing for a while to visit some fire houses. Oh well maybe someday, then we can argue, ooops, I mean discuss the fire service as we see it over your favorite beverage.

    Hey what ever happened with the Vindicator tests?

    Honestly I didn't expect you to STFU anymore than I believe you expected me too.

    By the way, I have looked at some of the ops guidelines on that web site and I may steal some of that stuff and use it. Why reinvent the wheel. Thanks for showing me that.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    Bro...that is what I am saying. So in the end, we do agree! Great post BTW.
    Wow!! I think a moment of clarity was reached between us.

    Thanks,

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    VinnieB...

    Hey what ever happened with the Vindicator tests?
    I don't know....I will check our training bullitens though. I remember seeing it, but can't tell you were we are at. But I don't think we are going to change what we have. We do has the Akron Assault Nozzle though, its used for nussance fires only. And its mounted on the trash line.

    Here is the problem though....we have to be carfull with equipemnt purchases here b/c the City is notorious for seeing something thats easy, light, and "more efficiant" as justification for reducing manpower and companies. A perfect example of this is the old Rapid Water companies. There was this polymer the Navy used to make ships float, they found that if you inject it into a pump and then a hose line then you can flow a 1.75" like it was a 2.5". The cities idea was to reduce manpower as a result. But during the time it was inservice....a few things happened. The PSI was high and more guys were needed to maintain the line....and the polymer was expensive. So that program was scrapped. My father was a member of one of these rapid water companies in the Lower Eastside of MN in the 70s and 80s.....he hated the thing and they rarely, if ever used it. They had plenty of fire duty back then and they tried all kinds of nozzles....nothing worked....you still needed more guys to maintian the 1.75" flowing 250gpm. Mind you....I am sure it works well on 1 or two rooms of fire....but back then...they delt with more than 1 or 2 rooms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Hey what ever happened with the Vindicator tests?
    I can't recall the exact issues. Here are some that I think were some of the many reasons it was discontinued.

    -WAY too loud...immpeaded communication near the nozzle, Something about the kinking behind the nozzle and a few other issues. Sorry can't remember all of them. If I ever find the results too I will post them.

    Another one of our trials...it was tried and found not to do anything different than our simple nozzle set up. Not worth the headaches and cost in otherwords.

    FTM-PTB

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    FFFred...

    Interesting you commenting on the nosie. My volly FD tried them too and while the flow was amazing the guys all complained about how loud it was.

    FyredUp

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    Here's a link to the FDNY Test report on the First Strike Web Site (Vindicator Nozzles). As I understand it the nozzles were then farmed out for a few companies to use in the field? I assume it was in field trials that personnel duiscovered the nozzle affected communications?

    http://www.1ststriketech.com/Testimo...r%2520FDNY.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    Here's a link to the FDNY Test report on the First Strike Web Site (Vindicator Nozzles). As I understand it the nozzles were then farmed out for a few companies to use in the field? I assume it was in field trials that personnel duiscovered the nozzle affected communications?

    http://www.1ststriketech.com/Testimo...r%2520FDNY.pdf
    Just a point of order... That report does not appear to be the FDNY report. The way it is worded it was a test using some of our guidelines and was conducted at a volly accademy outside the city by someone other than us. That looks to be a report created for First Strike to sell their product. Our R&D reports have much more info and data that what was presented. There was no mention of field testing or similar trials.

    Not saying we didn't achive some of the same results but I doubt that report came from Chief Turi's Desk.

    FTM-PTB

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    Hey VinnieB or FFFred...

    You guys ever read Emanuel Fried's Book Fireground Tactics?

    Our discussions and the website on FDNY ops made me pull it off the shelf again.

    FyredUp

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    FFFred- I too thought that it was a standard across the country that when using a smooth bore that you don't use any tip larger then half the diameter of the hose. I believe that I have read that in the IFSTA Pumping Apparatus
    Driver Operator book. But hell I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Hey VinnieB or FFFred...

    You guys ever read Emanuel Fried's Book Fireground Tactics?

    Our discussions and the website on FDNY ops made me pull it off the shelf again.

    FyredUp
    Yes, One of the many books I have. It is a little dated but covers many great basic issues and isn't cluttered with some of the sillyness found in some of todays texts. It has the feel of the old text books without the silly graphics and fluff. One has to be accustomed to this type of text learning...something they don't teach in school much any more. Not many today have the attention span or imagination to understand this text.

    It is simple to the point and based on expereince.

    A must read for anyone seriously into the job.

    FTM-PTB

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    FFFred...

    Heck as old as I am that is how all text books used to be.

    I hadn't looked at that book in years but you and Vinnie renewed ny interest so i pulled it off the shelf last night.

    FyredUp

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    Actually...no I don't have that one.....I have a pile of books though.....the Old and new NFPA books, my job's books, Chief Normans book, and a few others.....I'll have to get the one you speak of though.

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    Vinnie,

    It is an old book, published in 1972.

    Some of the stuff, especially about PP and SCBA is out dated, but the tactical stuff seems to still ring true.

    FyredUp

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    I follow this thread with interest, you guys are good examples of what the brotherhood is about. Thanks for keeping this a learning expierence. I'll still be playing with my hose when the warm weather comes . If I remember, I'll report back on my findings.

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