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  1. #1
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    Default Credit for fire certs? Check the no go box for the Army

    Dose any one know why the Army dose not give college credit for the fire certs? Or at least thats what my college is telling me and I looked at the paper work I got from the army tell me what I have for credit. It's a no go on the certs. I get credit for being a 0352/11H and 14J but nada for the fire certs. Then again the yahoo college im going to wont take my state certs or the stuff I got from A&M.
    OK back to the question, any know why the Army has not given credit?


  2. #2
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    I take it your MOS was not firefighting? That's probably why - as far as college credit - ??? Your COLLEGE should be doing that. I have many DOD fire certifications, but as far as college credit, that's up to the local college. Are they IFSAC/ProBoard certifications?

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    I have the FF MOS, went to Goodfellow just like most military FF do. BUT that Army AARTS (or what ever its called) dose not have any credit. As for the crappy college they told me that if the AARTS wont give it credit then they wont either. All my certs are IFSAC or ProBoard. I was just wondering, I have like 11 credits for the 14J MOS and 8 or 9 for the 0352 MOS and ZERO for the 21M. Like I said I was just wondering if someone knew why the Army was doing this.

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    Oh.....AARTS. I would venture to say if you have a community college that does fire science, they probably will. I know of some in Kansas, but that probably won't help you. I can tell you why the Army AARTS won't give credit - they don't care about the 51M (er......21M) MOS. I have the same thing - credit for PLDC, BNCOC, etc but nothing for fire certs. A local community college however, evaluated them, checked with IFSAC and gave quite a few credits toward Fire Science.

    Look around and try some online places - you might find something. Good luck, I know what you're going through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiredoldman
    Oh.....AARTS. I would venture to say if you have a community college that does fire science, they probably will. I know of some in Kansas, but that probably won't help you. I can tell you why the Army AARTS won't give credit - they don't care about the 51M (er......21M) MOS. I have the same thing - credit for PLDC, BNCOC, etc but nothing for fire certs. A local community college however, evaluated them, checked with IFSAC and gave quite a few credits toward Fire Science.

    Look around and try some online places - you might find something. Good luck, I know what you're going through.

    Looks like im going to have to light a fire under the AARTS rear end about this. Well gents ive been needing a cause to fight looks like I just found one.lol Guess I shoudl start with E-mailing AARTS asking WTF. Dose any one know if any other branch gives credit for the certs, would help me a little for back up.

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    Hi,

    Don't know how many, but the Air Force does give quite a few credits toward a Fire Science Degree from the academy at Goodfellow. Once I dig through my paperwork, I will be able to tell you how many. Good luck.
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

    Aggressive does not have to equal stupid.

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and possibly that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEFIRENUT
    Hi,

    Don't know how many, but the Air Force does give quite a few credits toward a Fire Science Degree from the academy at Goodfellow. Once I dig through my paperwork, I will be able to tell you how many. Good luck.

    Yeah if you would PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I feel that its kind of crappy that other branches get credits for the same school that we all go to. Im sure most of you guys/gals agree.

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    I was in the Army from 92 to 96. I got credit from the community college of the Air Force. That was from the old school in Chanute. 14 credits I believe. Should be much more now with the longer curriculum. I am in the Air Guard now and they still have credit for firefighting, they have an associates degree in Fire science. You can probably contact the Air Force college online.http://www.au.af.mil/au/ccaf is their web site.
    Last edited by cityfire; 01-24-2006 at 11:48 PM. Reason: fix url

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    shoot me an email Graham.Strebler@usmc.mil i just recently did a transcript request for my own credit from goodfellow. It will take a couple months but they do give you 23 credit hours for the basic academy. If you have been back for train the trainer or anything that is additional credit as well.

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    I am fed fire and also work for a college as an instructor. As long as your certs are pro board or ifsac and that school recognizes those two accrediation agencies, than you will get credit for your certs. They may not be cert for cert though....example say you have DOD/Ifsac/proboard inspector 1, and the college offers a associates degree in fire science. They dont give you X amount of credits and call it inspector one, but they will give you 3 credits for fire protection systems...Driver/Operator-Pumper takes care of hydraulics and so on. Many places require that you take a portfolio class and they will evaluate your certs.

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    check with Pikes Peak Community College Online (ppcc.edu) they have a great fire science program that will give you a good amount of college credit for your certifications. However like all colleges you have to take 3 classes with them first before they'll evaluate your certs and award credit. I went through all these hoops also, trying to get promotion points only to find out this is really the only way to get the credits. Hopes this helps let me know if ya got any other questions

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    Lots of good info but, AARTS dont give up the credits. Im going to shoot them a E-mail monday when I get a chance. From what im seeing, AF and Marines get credit and the Army dont. So some place in the AARTS pee size brain thay have to have a good reason why others get the credit and the Army dont.

    crashcrew59 your getting a e-mail.

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    OK so I shot ACE A e-mail asking whats the deal. This is what I got back.


    "Because the Army discontinued offering the SDT (Self-Development Tests) as of February 1995, after March 1995, only soldiers in skill levels 30, 40, and 50 will be eligible for credit. The MOS exhibits in this Guide have been modified to reflect this. That's where you see the ďTHIS MILITARY OCCUPATIONAL SPECIALTY (MOS) IS NOT EVALUATED BY THE AMERICAN COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (ACE) AT THIS SKILL LEVEL OR DURING THE TIME FRAME HELD BY THIS SERVICEMEMBER.Ē
    In order for ACE to evaluate any branch's occupational system, that system must be codified, adequately described, and provide for the assessment of the individual. Since the Army no longer offers soldiers the SDT test, ACE is unable to provide credit recommendations for Skill Levels 10 and 20. However, ACE will continue to provide credit recommendations for Skill Levels 10 and 20 related courses.

    Although the Skill Levels 10 and 20 MOS recommendations are no longer provided, descriptions will continue to be a part of the MOS exhibit, since MOS skill level progression begins with Skill Level 10. ACE recommends that an institution wishing to grant credit for Skill Levels 10 and 20 do so on the basis of an individualized assessment of the student."


    So im kind of lost here but what it's telling me is the Army/AARTS is the people to blame here. I guess Ill have to wait and see what AARTS has to say.

  14. #14
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    Man these ACE people are on the ball!
    I wrote her this

    "OK im really lost here. What youíre telling me is that since the Army quit giving this SDT for 20ís and below you canít get credit for the school. BUT, if youíre a 30 and above you get credit for it even thou you donít take this SDT?"

    Got this back

    "Exactly. During an interview all skill levels are questioned. The interview is to document the management/managerial requirements
    of each job. Because skill levels 10 and 20 are interviewed also, the credit is given for the technical portion of their jobs at the 30 level. The SDT was to evaluate the technical skills used only. So when it stopped, we had to push the credit recommendations to the 30 level."


    Any one else think this is a load of crap? Don't get me wrong im a 30 but it's really unfair for those that are not.
    Last edited by shortimer52; 02-01-2006 at 04:11 PM.

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    I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, this is just the next glitch in the long history of this MOS' sad story.
    When they stopped the SQTs and SDTs they basically wrote off the MOS. Since 51Ms (sorry... 21Mikes) only go to E7, you essentially have to go almost a full career before you get any college credit. I'm a 30 as well, but it took a hell of a long time to get to that position compared to others' MOS.
    What's worse is that in 93(?) they did a mass grand-fathering of DoD certs for those of us that went to Chanute. Up to that point, we received nothing other than an Air Force certificate of training and any OJT we got from our assigned units. While many did rightly deserve their certs based on their duty position at the time, (ie. Driver/Operater ARFF,) this initially reduced the credibility of the certifications, since their was no testing process at the time for the certifications received. The closest thing we had up to that point was the SDTs and SQTs. This may have played some part in ATRRS not granting college credits up to 20 level. Frankly, I'm surprised they even knew the MOS existed.
    I feel for you, dude. Really I do. I'm in a similar boat in that I have 16 years of professional firefighting experience, to include being an instructor for the Army at Goodfellow, but no degree. I'm in the Guard now, and my civilian department requires me to have at least a two-year degree to take a lieutenant's exam. The real kicker is that I help teach fire science at Pikes Peak Community College, but DON'T EVEN HOLD THE FREAKIN' DEGREE! I got the teaching job based on my experience.
    I'm currently doing a SWEEP with PPCC which basically awards college credit for practical experience. You might see if your college has a similar program.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by USArmyFF1
    I absolutely agree. Unfortunately, this is just the next glitch in the long history of this MOS' sad story.
    When they stopped the SQTs and SDTs they basically wrote off the MOS. Since 51Ms (sorry... 21Mikes) only go to E7, you essentially have to go almost a full career before you get any college credit. I'm a 30 as well, but it took a hell of a long time to get to that position compared to others' MOS.
    What's worse is that in 93(?) they did a mass grand-fathering of DoD certs for those of us that went to Chanute. Up to that point, we received nothing other than an Air Force certificate of training and any OJT we got from our assigned units. While many did rightly deserve their certs based on their duty position at the time, (ie. Driver/Operater ARFF,) this initially reduced the credibility of the certifications, since their was no testing process at the time for the certifications received. The closest thing we had up to that point was the SDTs and SQTs. This may have played some part in ATRRS not granting college credits up to 20 level. Frankly, I'm surprised they even knew the MOS existed.
    I feel for you, dude. Really I do. I'm in a similar boat in that I have 16 years of professional firefighting experience, to include being an instructor for the Army at Goodfellow, but no degree. I'm in the Guard now, and my civilian department requires me to have at least a two-year degree to take a lieutenant's exam. The real kicker is that I help teach fire science at Pikes Peak Community College, but DON'T EVEN HOLD THE FREAKIN' DEGREE! I got the teaching job based on my experience.
    I'm currently doing a SWEEP with PPCC which basically awards college credit for practical experience. You might see if your college has a similar program.

    You and me need to talk some time.

  17. #17
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    Really guys, just take a few classes with a school that has a fire science program. They will then evaluate your certifications, and walla! You'll be awarded credit. However this only works with colleges that have a fire science program. I tried this when I was doing the EarmyU program and Central Texas College was who I went through. Since they had no fire science program, and thus no way to know what my certs were worth, they could not give me credit. When I switched to a school with a fire science program I got all of my credit awarded. The ARTTS deal really doesnt matter. You just have to work around it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColdUpHere
    Really guys, just take a few classes with a school that has a fire science program. They will then evaluate your certifications, and walla! You'll be awarded credit. However this only works with colleges that have a fire science program. I tried this when I was doing the EarmyU program and Central Texas College was who I went through. Since they had no fire science program, and thus no way to know what my certs were worth, they could not give me credit. When I switched to a school with a fire science program I got all of my credit awarded. The ARTTS deal really doesnt matter. You just have to work around it.

    Wish that was true, since the college I was going to did have a fire science program. Dont always work like that.My school, well my old school. If ARTTS didnt give it credit, you dont get it. Simple as that! no if's, and's or but's about it. Go talk to the HMFIC of the program you say, I did and he was a retired FF from the AirForce and that did not work. Well then go talk to HMFIC of the school, did that too still a no go. So yeah the ARTTS dose mattter depending on the school. Have to remember when it comes to schools it not a cookie cutter situation.

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    Try Chemeketa Community College in Salem Oregon. They have a degree at a distance program, and for my DOD certs were willing to give me something like 30 credits for my IFSAC/ProBoard Certs. and a few more for prior experience instead of having to do their OJT classes..

  20. #20
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    Default I feel you, brother

    Quote Originally Posted by shortimer52
    Wish that was true, since the college I was going to did have a fire science program. Dont always work like that.My school, well my old school. If ARTTS didnt give it credit, you dont get it. Simple as that! no if's, and's or but's about it. Go talk to the HMFIC of the program you say, I did and he was a retired FF from the AirForce and that did not work. Well then go talk to HMFIC of the school, did that too still a no go. So yeah the ARTTS dose mattter depending on the school. Have to remember when it comes to schools it not a cookie cutter situation.
    Shortimer, sounds like you and I have walked down alot of the same trails in this job. I absolutely agree with your assessment. In your case, I can see right off the bat the two big problems with your experience.

    First, the Air Force has, and always will, have a hard-on for the Army Fire Service. The fact that your program manager was AF is just bad luck. I can't tell you the number of times I have been deployed to a joint forces operation with the Air Force, and they've got the junk to ask what my certs are and where I got them. FROM THE SAME DANG PLACE YOU DID! It's as if they believe they are the only DoD component that has firefighting. At least the Navy doesn't have to deal with those guys so much since they're out to sea.
    Second, many colleges are simply in the business of making money. Trust me on this... I work for one. That means if they don't give you credit for something, you'll have to take their class at the going price, and that's a heck of alot more than a SWEEP. Also, if your credits cannot be accessed the way most MOS skills are (ATTRS), they have a lock-tight reason for NOT accepting them.

    If being an Army firefighter this long has taught me one thing, it's that nothing is easy or goes as it should. You just have to keep plugging away until you find what you're looking for. Kind of like the boxer who wins the fight because he broke the other guy's hand with his face. Hey, it's still a win, right?

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