1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dadman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oHIo
    Posts
    251

    Default Structure side & corner/quadrant designation: A, B, C, D, etc.

    During some training, structure side designation was taught, which left me with more questions than answers.
    What's the correct method for designating sides and corners of a structure?
    Was told it's the address side. Example: House facing street, on address side, front door facing street, this is the 'A' side. Going clockwise, each side B, C, D.
    Is there any NFPA standard or Fire Holy Book that states "Thou shalt declare 'A' side the address side no matter what, no if's, and's, or but's".
    I agree with this in a perfect tidy world.
    Looking around my Department's area and the rural area I'm at, things aren't so cut and dry.

    What do you do if the structure sits diagonaly to the street/lane, or it is situated on a curve/apex diagonaly?

    What if the main entry door/front door faces the road, but the mailbox/address is on a corner road?
    Thinking of a house down the road from me that has an entry door and driveway that faces a sideroad, but the mailbox/address is around the corner on a main road/state route.

    What of a home/structure that has a long lane/driveway/private drive?
    You turn off the road, go down the long driveway and the involved structure main door is mainly facing the drive/lane, but door is perpendiculer to the road/address?

    How about a round house? Someones mini-Montecillo(sp)?

    T or L shaped structures, with very defined corners and sides of major measuments. Are you to average the whole structure out as a whole, or is each majorly defined side take on it's own letter designation?

    To me, it would be best if the first arriving unit IC, after size-up, would declare to the deployed and arriving units that 'A' would be, in order of preferance:
    1. address side, if apparatus are arriving and staging parrelel with structure and street.
    2. the main door of a structure if the structure isn't situated paralllel of the street or road.
    3. the 'major' looking/door side of a structure(which is on the end of a long lane/driveway off a main road) that's facing the drive/lane.

    I agree with the " 'A' side is address side" theory, but reality say's there's some variables to think about.

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Which door are the street numbers tacked to? There is your side "a". If two sides have the numbers tacked on, which side faces the street that the address was called into? Say the house is at the corner of 1st Road and Center Street, there are entrances on both sides with number 102 above the doors, if the dispatch was to 102 Center St. then that side/wall/door/exposure is side A.

    My new dilemma is hear that some places continue to use quadrant AB, BC,CD, AD; while others have gone to quadrants A, B, c,& D; still others quadrant 1,2,3,4. Has there been an official standardized change in NFPA?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default

    We go with the side facing the street for a middle of the block house and the street address side for corner lots(i.e. if you are the corner of 1st and main and the address is 123 main then side a is main).

    If it is difficult to determine by that concept like a house way off the road(like some of the barns we have on large commercial farms) then side A is where command sets up.

    In either case, once A is established it proceeds clockwise from there.

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dadman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oHIo
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Which door are the street numbers tacked to? There is your side "a".
    In my rural 'hood, as far as I can tell, there are no numbers on doors or houses.
    The addresses are a reflective vertical sign attached to the mailbox post.
    In the village we also cover, there are sometimes obvious house numbers.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dadman
    In my rural 'hood, as far as I can tell, there are no numbers on doors or houses.
    The addresses are a reflective vertical sign attached to the mailbox post.
    In the village we also cover, there are sometimes obvious house numbers.
    Then it is the sides facing the street with the more obvious enterance. Otherwise it is the side that the first arriving officer declares as side "A" Sometimes you have to wing it and use the gray matter a little if the book is not covering the situation.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Golzy12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    476

    Default

    I think this is one of those things coming down from FEMA and NIMS. For the A side just use the side of the house that looks like the front and if it's confusing make sure everyone on the scene knows which side is the a side. If a building has more than 4 walls add a few letters for example the pentagon would have side A,B,C,D, and E. Corners of buildings should be call by the sides that meet at that corner. Where side A and side D meet on a four sided house that would be the A-D corner.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dadman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oHIo
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Then it is the sides facing the street with the more obvious enterance. Otherwise it is the side that the first arriving officer declares as side "A" Sometimes you have to wing it and use the gray matter a little if the book is not covering the situation.
    That's what bugs me about the training.
    The A side designation was presented in a "This is the way it is" manner
    with a nice square structure facing a straight street.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default

    Perhaps we need to just carry bright orange spray paint and label side A on arrival!?!? I'm sure the resident would like that little bit of customer service. You know sort of like "You are here" on that stupid map in the shopping mall!!

    Oh yeah and DtM.. if you wing it then that adds a whole nother level of complexity... does the new wing have it's own set of identify letters like maybe H = Hot, M = Mild, or B = BBQ???

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dadman
    That's what bugs me about the training.
    The A side designation was presented in a "This is the way it is" manner
    with a nice square structure facing a straight street.
    I couldn't agree more. Its the same as the SOP lovers... "Well our SOPs say we will vent the roof" but LT it was food on the stove, "I don't care the SOP says vent the roof to get the smoke out!"

    Ok so maybe that's a littel extreme of an example, but I feel your pain. There are so many guys out there that can only think of what the book or piece of paper tells them rather than use that book knowledge in conjunction with real life experience and make an actual informed decision vs a book regurgetation (sp?)

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,578

    Default

    The "Front", "A" or "1" side, no matter what you designate it, should not be an "all the time" type thing. At work, we have buildings that come in as either an two digit addresses or 3 digit addresses,depending on which street the entrance is , but the buildings are one in the same, with only limited access between addresses. The best way to designate which is front, etc, is use the side that is either the main egress for the building, or where you are stretching your line to.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber
    SeavilleFire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Seaville, NJ
    Posts
    61

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    Otherwise it is the side that the first arriving officer declares as side "A"
    Exactly. Why make this a discussion? It is standard in the fire service the address side is side "A" and if that can't be, or isn't easily determined then the IC says what is side "A". Simple as that.

    I am with FFTrainer 100%. There is no "set way" and we can use our brains instead of following what a book or SOP says to do.
    Last edited by SeavilleFire; 01-23-2006 at 04:27 PM. Reason: spelling

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    MEck51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    444

    Default

    The reason there is standardization is that if I come to a large fire in your town I am not looking for command over by uncle billy's shed. It happens and there is no need for it. Many people train and work to know their job and it should not have to be dumbed down due to laziness. I understand that there are places where it may be confusing as to where A side is, so when you establish command you state "what ever building, fire conditons, what you need and command is being established on the a side of the building on john doe lane". When units are arriving and are needed you tell them to go to the d side of the building on "jane doe road". People do need to think but they also need to know the standards. If you are not sure about what is said in class you should ask in class, I understand things come to you afterwards but good disscusion should be encouraged by the instructor which would bring out more questions. Also although there is alot of knowledge to be shared here you should ask the bosses at your dept how it is done there, I know for a fact that some BIG depts still use numbers for side designations.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dadman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oHIo
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MEck51
    If you are not sure about what is said in class you should ask in class, I understand things come to you afterwards but good disscusion should be encouraged by the instructor which would bring out more questions. Also although there is alot of knowledge to be shared here you should ask the bosses at your dept how it is done there, I know for a fact that some BIG depts still use numbers for side designations.
    Being diplomatic due this being a public forum:
    Heard what was said, sure what was said, asked and discussed about what was said in class. And here I am.
    I think I shall keep a can of bright green spray paint for my own special size-up.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    MEck51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    444

    Default

    Well that being the case, how is it that the instructor did not answer your questions? The only thing that I can think of is that the instructor him or herself did not have the answers that they should have. I am not placing blame on you for not knowing and asking here, however if you did have the questions during class, and they were not answered fully when you asked, there is a fault with whoever taught your class. At the very least the instructor should have gotten your name and number to get back to you with the proper answer when they found it. It seems from your second post that you did in fact want to understand what was going on and your instructor let you down.
    The simple answer to your question is a side is the street side of the address as either called in or main entrance. If at an event in an area without street names such as a series of warehouses or an industrial complex, it would be from the side of main access. Buildings set at an angle to the road or parking lot, use the main access side. Buildings with more than 4 defined sides such as an L or T use wings or quadrants. Such as the wing on the b side of the building. As stated in my first post, command must estabish the a side clearly. I hear way too often **** poor size ups and if the time was taken to do it right in the first place a more complete size up would take place without the IC even knowing they did it. ex. "engine 1 arriving, 3 story ballon frame building in residental use, heavy fire showing from division 2, I need a second alarm, command will be on john doe lane." Now incoming units know that they have a working fire, if at night time probable occupant load, truck co.s know they have a balloon frame and will more than likely have to get to the roof for a cut, depending on sogs second in engine knows to take the plug and all incoming units know that command is on john doe lane and can take assigments accordingly, such as if truck 2 were assigned to c side. Poor size up and command structures lead to failure. I have heard many times, "chief?? arriving I have a working fire." Well what the hell is it? A shed, a house, a car, do we need water supply, what the hell is needed. Simple things that can be done to put peoples head in gear and get thinking. Not done because of a lack of knowledge/understanding or possibly laziness or maybe a case of tone activated idiot. I was not meaning to pick on you with my first post, but you have been let down by someone who was supposed to be teaching you, either because they did not know what they should have to be teaching the class or they were too lazy to explain it to you. Either way I hope your questions have been answered. IC should be done at every event- large or small, you don't need to pull out every sector or division for every thing. But if you do it at every event, when the time comes and you need to expand you will have a better understanding of what needs to be done.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    We ar supposed to use the address side as side "A". However, as has been mentioned, thats not always practicle. What it really ends up being is whatever side the first due rig stops in front of is called side "A".
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dadman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oHIo
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MEck51
    I am not placing blame on you for not knowing and asking here, ...
    MEck51,
    None taken, none given.
    Wasn't a fire school class, and I'll leave it at that.
    As said before, public forum. 'Others' may take things the wrong way.

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    142

    Default

    Ok, I was taught that where ever the first due sets up is the A side, wether is be in front of the house at the main doorway, or in its back yard, that's the A side. Then you go clockwise from the first due to designate the other sides.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Delta.....

    Because B, C and D sound alike... and if orders get confused, it turns into a Charlie Foxtrot!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    ya what he said !!!!!!
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  20. #20
    This space for rent
    NYSmokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Recently relocated to Baltimore County, MD
    Posts
    1,018

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Delta.....

    Because B, C and D sound alike... and if orders get confused, it turns into a Charlie Foxtrot!

    LOL....Charlie Foxtrots
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

    IACOJ Member

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    956

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    We ar supposed to use the address side as side "A". However, as has been mentioned, thats not always practicle. What it really ends up being is whatever side the first due rig stops in front of is called side "A".
    Heh...I always laugh at this setup, in my area we a have a few round, yes circles, houses..so which side becomes the A side, and how do you go about separating A from B and so forth? I doub't this is a popular construction choice around the country, so some of you may be confused.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber
    dadman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    oHIo
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Delta.....

    Because B, C and D sound alike... and if orders get confused, it turns into a Charlie Foxtrot!
    A bunch of Bravo Sierra makes for a bad Charlie Foxtrot!

  23. #23
    This space for rent
    NYSmokey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Recently relocated to Baltimore County, MD
    Posts
    1,018

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dadman
    A bunch of Bravo Sierra makes for a bad Charlie Foxtrot!
    Don't forget to throw in a few Mike Uniform Tango Tango's in command who don't know their Alpha Sierra Sierra from their Echo Lima Bravo Oscar Whiskey
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

    IACOJ Member

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Memphis Tn
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Since I just complete the NIMS-ICS instructor course yesturday I will give it to you right from the book. The address side of the building is DIVISION A. It is now manditory that you adopt and train all personel in NIMS, if you want federal money, so that should help clear up confusion on the subject.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LtLarry
    Since I just complete the NIMS-ICS instructor course yesturday I will give it to you right from the book. The address side of the building is DIVISION A. It is now manditory that you adopt and train all personel in NIMS, if you want federal money, so that should help clear up confusion on the subject.
    What happens when there are no numbers on the building or the building is built at an angle to the road so that two walls are equally facing the road? We even have a building around here that has the front door in the corner of the two walls facing the street. Is the door itself side a? with the wall to its left(when facing it) side b and the wall to its right side e?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 12-04-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-09-2005, 08:46 PM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 02-13-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-16-2005, 10:51 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 01-30-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-31-2005, 08:23 PM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 06-05-04
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-09-2004, 01:25 AM
  5. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 08:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register