1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default Quints vs. Trucks in '06

    Ok, tis the time of year and I thought I would throw our little question out there for you guys to weigh in on...

    Suburban department (although in '05 listed as Urban) and we're thinkin of trying for that aerial vehicle one more time. The last few times it seems that we didn't make it out of the gate (to the competitive range/round) and after looking at the past app's (we're new to the committee and the previous folks are now no longer affiliated with our department, so we're somewhat starting from scratch) there are a few things that make sense.

    1) we asked for a 75' quint in '05 and it appears to have Priority One status, but looking at the classification, it's a pumper class (<76') and we have 3 other of those (standard pumpers though).

    Outside of this, we do not have any buildings greater than 4 stories -

    Now I know that last statement might be the kiss of death with going for aerial-type of vehicles...but to me it seems if we only went for a Quint that was >76' we would have fitted into the aerial classification and since we have none of those, maybe we would have gotten past the 1st stage.

    Our problem is that we need to get to the narrative as we can further explain why this quint is needed (2/3 of existing pumpers 1988 and are in bad shape; 3rd pumper a 1994 refurbised pumper). Beyond this, involving auto-aid, having this combination pumper at the front of the numerous (200+) 3 story apartment buildings on our narrow streets as well as all of our other arguements on why this would benefit our town. FYI, our 75' Pierce truck was deemed ick after UL tested the ladder in 2000 and said nope! So it's not like we never had one before...and we used it a ton in town and with auto aid. Been trying ever since to get a new one.

    Anyway, we feel like we could get a decent shot at this...but what do ya think?

  2. #2
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Well, it isn't that the lack of 4 story buildings MIGHT be the kiss of death. It pretty much is. Remember, they only send to Peer Review applications representing 200% of the available funding. So this year, ust over $146 million is available for trucks. So after the computer is done its rankings, they go down the list until the cumulative total of vehicle apps is $292 million. Everything above that on the list gets read, everything below gets dumped. According to DHS, 75% of the non reviewed applications are vehicle apps.

    Basically, by not making Peer Review on a truck, the odds are there that you are not competitive for any truck regardless of type. Definitely nothing over 75' because you have no 4 story buildings. The metric is somewhere in the middle between statistically needing a 75' and a 95'+. So for argument, if you put 20-30 4 story buildings, the odds are that most are in the 4-6 story range, so 75' will suffice. 50 or more, odds are that there are quite a few that are 10+ stories, so a 100' +/- is needed.

    Don't quote me on those numbers, just making them up for the sake of argument. But hopefully y'all can see what I'm driving at: tall buildings = aerial need.

    Even with already owning an aerial, if the statistical need isn't there, it won't make you any more competitive.

    With that being said...

    If you have no other needs, then apply for it and don't leave anything to assumptions should it make it to Peer Review. I can't predict denials anymore than anyone else can predict awards. (exception of ineligible items) I'm just saying it to make you aware that according to national standards you have no need for an aerial since they all reference 4+ story buildings, hence the reason they ask that on the application. Just so you're aware of the uphill battle you're in and you prepare for it properly if you do decide to go after it.

    Good luck, and drop a line if you need anything.

    - Brian

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    Thanks Brian,
    this is kinda what I was looking for.
    A). With our committee just taking over the grant process we really dont have another glaring need and also it would be tough to create one (I'm sure we need something) as time is running out and it would be so much easier to modify the current grant (quint).
    B) I hear ya with national standards...it just seems so wrong because as we speak, if I gotta get someone out of the 3rd floor of any of the 200 apartment buildings in town, I gotta wait for mutual aid...or request auto aid from a box alarm. We only got the 24 footers at our disposal from the pumpers...and it just dont seem right.

    But i guess we're just thinking about maybe trying one last time. I dont really want to shoot for a +75' quint, it just seems by staying that low, we get grouped into a pumper category and we already have 3...so it's a pick your poison kinda thing.

    Always appreciate your input though and thanks...we got a lot of decisions to go through...

    Shawn

  4. #4
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    I know a lot of departments stopped putting 24's and went to 28's or 35's on first due units for that very reason. We run 28's, and since nearly every 3 story building we have has balconies we can come close enough. Of course we bought the 105' and it came in October, so we've got the 45's and 35's on that. We're still looking at changing over the pumper ladder racks to take 35's.

    We were in the same situation. When I wrote the quint app for 2003 I found close to 100 3 story apartment buildings of tremendous square footage, so we had close to 12,000 residents living more than 10' off the ground. Denied last round, so I came close to a vehicle repeat. But I found out later there wasn't enough dough to fund the whole truck, and with a bunch of equipment apps behind us they bypassed us to fund them. Sounded like the right decision to me, 6+ depts worth of PPE instead of our truck. Since it's sitting in the station not 2 years later because of record growth in housing & tax income, all is well.

    And 75' quints are only lumped into the pumper category because most are used more for pumpers than aerials. Aerials with no pump and 76'+ quints are all in the Aerial category. They really aren't scored as pumpers, it's just a way to minimize entry boxes on their part. So as I said, if you're not competitive statistically for any truck, it doesn't matter what category you apply in, it still won't get read.

    But we agree that if it is the most pressing FF & citizen safety need you have, then you'd almost be remiss in not applying for it. But that also means its time to market to the citizens why they need to support the department in purchasing a new truck. That is the real test of an application.

    - Brian

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    Again thanks...just tough to figure this one out. I'm almost thinking we should just accept fate and go with the engine instead - as we're only looking at the quint cause 2 out of our 3 engines are 1988 beasts from pierce that really need a little replacing. We thought a quint would be the answer. Maybe just a standard engine since we have no 4+'ers will fly with a better chance.

    Maybe I missed this answer along the way, but since they lump quints <76' into a pumper category, would the 4+ restriction affect us as much? Would we just be fighting the fact that we have three other pumpers? Or is it because it's a quint of any size, we gotta have the big buildings?

    Shawn

  6. #6
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    No, the shorter buildings wouldn't do much for the 75' argument. As I mentioned above, it's the number of those that helps determine the statistical need for an X sized aerial.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    ok, so no aerial at all, no matter the size. Alright. guess we'll try standard pumper only and hope our other 3 are old enough to get into competitive judging. Thanks again.
    Shawn

  8. #8
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    Actually what I meant was you probably have a better shot at the 75' than a regular pumper since you had one before. The age of the other pumpers won't help you out much on either truck project, but the quint is at least different.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    Ah...IC
    So you think because the 75' isn't classified as an aerial, the 4+ wont effect.
    So that leaves their determination at whether we have more than enough pumpers in their eyes - in spite of the age of those we have. I can live with that I suppose.

    Sorry about the confusion. I always see you chime in and help the folks in this forum with great advice, you have helped us as well.

  10. #10
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    207

    Default

    BRIAN,

    When counting 4 story buildings; can you count the surrounding communities where you have documented auto-aid; going with the thought that you are the 1st due truck to an area?

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    thats a great question as that would help us a ton. I have heard myself that ya can't...although the explanation mentioned 1st due response area...maybe, in this day of interoperability this has changed. I know we ran our old truck on auto-aid 90% of the time and would again if we had one.

  12. #12
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    No, you can't count their buildings in the answer to the question in the application. But you can use it in your narrative. Problem is, if they have more of a need than you, the question arises why are you asking for their ladder?

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    ...that's kinda the explanation I got.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Not2L84U2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Catlin, IL, USA
    Posts
    960

    Default

    Not that I'm out for a quint or a ladder or platform or anything of that nature...so basically I'm just being nosey, but do grain elevators and silos and water towers count as buildings over 4 stories or does it actually have to have some sort of occupancy?

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    According to the '05 info I read it's occupied buildings at 4+ stories

  16. #16
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    No, anything with expected occupancy as part of it's function. Not all of the time, just places that you'd normally expect people to be.

    Despite the fact that silos and grain elevators sometimes have people, they don't count either.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    drat! Foiled again

  18. #18
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    "We'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids!"

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    81

    Default

    ...and their dog too!

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,144

    Default

    You know occasionally it is really nice to see a "grant guru" advising someone and have them actually listening to what he says! Great advice Brian and right on the money too.
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Linwood, NC
    Posts
    469

    Default

    Down here where I'm out (the South.... ie: Bible Belt) I have to advise folks that all those churches - EVERY CORNER - with a super tall steeple shouldn't be counted as a 4 story building. Steeples Not occupied - at least not the last time I checked.

  22. #22
    Forum Member
    Not2L84U2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Catlin, IL, USA
    Posts
    960

    Default

    But what if you have bats in your belfries?

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ktb9780's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Auburndale, FL
    Posts
    6,144

    Default

    What do you mean "what if" doesn't everyone have them? LOL!
    Kurt Bradley
    Fire/EMS/EMA Grant Consultant
    " Never Trade Skill for Luck"

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    Not2L84U2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Catlin, IL, USA
    Posts
    960

    Default

    And that's why I like you Kurt. You always make me feel as if I'm not so alone.

  25. #25
    FH Mag/.com Contributor

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cypress, TX
    Posts
    7,288

    Default

    We're the Knights who say "Ni".

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 08-04-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-06-2005, 10:25 AM
  2. Replies: 50
    Last Post: 04-24-2004, 05:46 PM
  3. Trucks Vs Quints
    By smitty91 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-17-2003, 01:48 AM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 07-13-03
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-28-2003, 09:31 AM
  5. Quints
    By imtxff44 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-29-2003, 01:16 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register