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  1. #21
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    Everyone keeps talking about pushing the fire around which is possible if you use a fog nozzle which will give you a straight stream but it is still a broken stream which will induce air and push your fire around. If you use a smooth bore nozzle there is very little if no air in the stream and with practice and knowledge you can use it as a great offensive tool just ask the city of Chicago or even better if you see John McNamara who is retired now he'll tell you a little story about a person who volunteered to test the pushing the fire theory in a training building. To make a long story short after the test the very wet firefighter came out and related that the fire never left the fire room. On a side note back in the 80's the city used a deck gun on an attct fire with people inside the atic which had fatal results So yes this is a very great tool to use especially since most of use are undermanned but it needs a lot of training to make it work. BTW using one of the portable monitors like a TFT Blitzfire which is usually preconnected off the back hose bed on some departments it's the same theory since the flow is still 500 GPM. RIP Jimmy Hill.


  2. #22
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    would I use the deck gun first for offensive attack, sure. With a crew inside, no. Would I like to have line stretched, search going on, coordinated venting and then attack with a handline, sure. But with 2 men on the engine first in, no hydrants, fire showing from the front window (no survivours in a flashed over room, it just doesnt happen) would I put 5-10 seconds of deck gun flow into that window while the 2nd man pulls the line, forces the door, waits for more help (2 in 2 out?) bet I would. Over pump the gun, going 100-150 psi, getting up the throttle prior to opening up, dont waste water flowing while you jockey the throttle (mounted guns, dont worry about reaction). the best use of your gallons is put them where the fire is with a flow that is sufficent to do the job. 600 GPM - more than any handline can get, for 10 seconds into a fire room uses only 100 gallons and will get you more bang for your gallon than the handline that you get into position 2 minutes later. You have to go with the situation, but dont count out a heavy stream as the opening act. Well placed water does wounders, better when there is more.
    Capt406, IACOJ#780

  3. #23
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    Thank you Lieut706 you know what I'm talking about.

  4. #24
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCK61
    Everyone keeps talking about pushing the fire around which is possible if you use a fog nozzle which will give you a straight stream but it is still a broken stream which will induce air and push your fire around. If you use a smooth bore nozzle there is very little if no air in the stream and with practice and knowledge you can use it as a great offensive tool just ask the city of Chicago or even better if you see John McNamara who is retired now he'll tell you a little story about a person who volunteered to test the pushing the fire theory in a training building.

    Well....about 2 or 3 years ago in same city in Western Orange County, NY (and a few others in the past, same place)....they managed to burn down a rather large apt building using this tactic. (and yes they had smoothbore LCS). Although I did not fight this fire, I sat back and watched it all go down. Fire would come out one window....they would open up a LCS....push it in....and it would come out another window....then the would open up on that window......this went on and on until they stopped it at the foundation.

    As far as my experiance....In the vollies, I have been on the wrong end of a 2.5" and a Firefighter with no brain a few times.....(I should say Fire Container). Each time unbeknownst to me....some bal*bag figured fire out a window is a bad thing....and decided to open up with a 2.5". The fire was pushed hard and fast right onto us.......It sounds light a frieght train too....I can not believe how fast it moved too! I can only imagine if it was a 500+gpm appliance......chances are I probably wouldn't be here.

  5. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    I have tried the blitz attack principle on a few post flashover fires with with excellent results. Probably the best example of how to implement it was during a controlled burn we did up North a few years back.

    We had a 2-storey stick frame duplex in which we were going to burn the entire contents of a living room to post-flashover conditions. The living room was completely closed off to the rest of the house via an interior door, and the only significant route out of the room was the bay window. In this scenario, we pre-staged an interior team down the hallway from the living room door, prepared PPV at the back door, and posted a 2 1/2 at the bay window (my team).

    We knew that if we opened the interior door while the room was flashing over, we would have massive heat and fire spread to the hallway, and there would be an unacceptable chance that our guys would get burnt. We decided to try and knock down the fire through the bay window, and then PPV the hallway before the attack team knocked down the living room door to extinguish the fire. After allowing the fire to flashover and burn freely for 10 minutes or so, we opened up with the 2 1/2 through the bay window for 20-30 seconds to blacken the fire a little, and then shut down to allow the interior team to make entry in the back. Radio communication was key.

    We were all amazed at how effective it was, and the only issue was the interior knob man who knelt down as soon as he entered the room, burning his knee slightly on the still red hot floor that was pooled with a mix of hot water and melted plastics.

    We have used that tactic a couple of times now with great success, including modifying it with the deck gun as the exterior stream (you need 1 less hose team to make it work that way). And it is now often one of the first tools in the box for a fully involved hotel room or apartment fire where we expect the fire to spread or breakthrough the ceiling/door before we have lines in place.

    The keys however are:

    1. Compartmentalized (or at least semi-obstructed) fire that won't readily allow spread throughout the house or building.
    2. If interior teams are in and awaiting exterior knockdown in a particular room, staging of interior team in a protected and defendable location until ready to make entry is essential.
    3. Good radio communication and coordination or interior and exterior teams. Know your target, and limits it's application to that room to avoid unplanned extension.

    Don't fear the deck gun, it's an effective piece of a coordinated intial attack. Just understand it's limitations.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

  6. #26
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Around this time about 9 years ago, A local liquor store was torched. The 3 man engine crew arrived to find fire blowing out the front almost to the street. The store was in a strip center. The Lt. at the time ordered the deck gun opened up with marvelous results. A large amount of the fire was knocked down and as help arrived, handlines were deployed and an interior attack was made. I thought at the time it was an excellent call on the officers part. I still do to this day. Its all about doing the most good with what you have. As a rule we do not use our pre-piped deck gun on an initial attack. But each situation is different and you do what you have to when necessary.
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  7. #27
    Forum Member maximumflow's Avatar
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    Lightbulb defensive/offensive attack

    truck 61 your post broke the ice!
    using a deck gun (large calaber/gpm appliance) initially on a well involved structure fire from the outside would be considered a defensive operation but in this tactic it is considered a defensive/offensive attack to gain some control of the fires headway by reducing the btu's and knocking down the volume of fire to make that offensive push to do a primary search and offensive attack with handlines. using a smoth bore tip the thermal balance in the interior is not disturbed and the fire not moved about.
    you read time and time again how firefighters were driven back because of the HEAT and smoke, this is one way to reduce that heat! in FF1 you are tought about hydralic ventilation and thermal balance, fog pattern out the window moves smoke and air disturbing the thermal balance, smoth bore out the window moves no smoke or air not disturbing the thermal balance. as ffred said we need to search and get in to extinguish the fire is true but if your initial conditions will not allow this the defensive/offensive attack works extreamly well. please remember the fire conditions and time of day determine weather a search and rescue is succsesfull. IF YOU CAN'T GET IN YOU CAN'T SEARCH AND RESCUE ! "BASICS" without tunnelvision the hardest decesion an officer has to make at a working fire is to determine the servivablity of occupants and the potential loss of firefighters going in.

    "there is no greater family outside our own than the brotherhood of firefighters"

    LT. Dennis

    At no time should firefighters be inside when large volume appliances are being used from the exterior.
    Last edited by maximumflow; 01-28-2006 at 03:00 AM.

  8. #28
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    In a volunteer department, the deck gun is an excellent tool for initial attack. There have been more than one time where I have arrived solo or with only 1 other firefighter on the truck to find a well involved structure fire with mutual aid still a good 10 minutes (or more) out. While not the best situation, the deck gun can knock down enough fire to buy you the time for enough personnel to arrive to safetly begin interior operations.

    There have been cases where it has worked, and cases where the results has been less than perfect, but, the important thing was that using this tatic kept my firefighters safe in a potentially bad situation. I would rather use this technique, and fail, then send in an understaffed crew and risk losing them to simply save property or lives that in all probablility, are already lost. In all cases I would love to pull up with a fully staffed truck, but the deck gun can be an excellent "holding tool" to do something until additional staff arrives. If nothing else, it works as a good PR tool, as you are not "doing nothing" until the additional personnel arrive.

    It also makes an excellent tool, as other posters have ementioned at brush, auto and trash fires when staffing is lacking.

  9. #29
    firefighter7160
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    Talking First attack???

    No way, unless you have it in your mind that a interior attack is not going to be done. Plus all that water damage. That house better be fully involved.

  10. #30
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    OK time to work on this some more. !st this is not to be used while doing an interior attack (sorry forgot to mention that in the first posting) this is being done while someone is leading out the line. This method is to be used to knock down or suppress the heavy amount of fire that if not knocked down you would not be able to enter the building anyway. Next who ever mentioned the defensive to offensive attack I applaud you I forgot to mention that simple phrase also. This is simply putting enough water to break up the BTU's and without BTU's the fire is going to be suppressed. This tactic is very awsome to watch when it works and it's very rewarding because it's very much thinking out of the box.

  11. #31
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    Several comments from the previous posts. As mentioned this exterior application of a master stream works best when properly selected. Best results will be when there is a fully involved fire compartment, room or two, garage etc. The chasing fire from window to window is not because the tactic doesn't work, but rather that there is significant fire beyond the compartment you are hitting. A stream will not push a room and contents fire from one bedroom to another if applied properly, ie shutting down when darkening of the original fire room is achieved. If the room dosent darken down then you need more water and/or better placement, not less water. Thermal balance? In a room that is flashed over the entire room is above ignition temp and not compatable with life. Remember that is how you are getting the stream into the fire room, thru the window the fire is venting from. Fire that pops out at you from the next window tells you that the second room, along with the connecting space, ie hallway is involved. As far as water damage is concerned, If applied correctly, ie until the fire darkens, then reassessed, the water damage will be less, as the total gallons will be less. The rate of application is greater to achieve quicker knock down, but shorter time means less water used. You could pour water onto the fire at less than the required flow for knock down until you run out of water and have no water damage but burn the building down. Been there done that, got the shirt. Figure the required fire flows for the standard home in your area, and then ask yourself that if the required flow is 200 to 250 gpm (generous) how come we run out of water before knocking down the fire when we arrive with several 1000 gallon attack engines? Follow Colin Powell's advice, attack with overwhelming force, it makes for a shorter battle.
    Capt406, IACOJ#780

  12. #32
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    December 6, 2005 TVFD was dispatched to a structure fire at the home of one of our own. He was at work over an hour away at the time of the fire. Luckily, his family managed to evacuate and were waiting in the front yard for us.

    When we arrived, the right side of the home was fully involved (we could actually see the fire from a mile away) and had vented the roof, but the left side was still salvageable. Because of the time of day, we were seriously shorthanded, with only three on the initial engine. A firefighter and I made the initial attack through the front door, attempting to push the fire back to the right and try to head left. We'd get the fire to black out, but within seconds it was going again. It wasn't until the second company pulled a second line were we able to get the fire stopped, but by then it was too late.

    I've second guessed myself on this fire, wondering what we could have done if we would have deckgunned the right side while the initial crew attacked the left....

  13. #33
    truckmonkey42
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    Default Strip Malls

    Somone above posted

    "Around this time about 9 years ago, A local liquor store was torched. The 3 man engine crew arrived to find fire blowing out the front almost to the street. The store was in a strip center. The Lt. at the time ordered the deck gun opened up with marvelous results. A large amount of the fire was knocked down and as help arrived, handlines were deployed and an interior attack was made. I thought at the time it was an excellent call on the officers part. I still do to this day. Its all about doing the most good with what you have. As a rule we do not use our pre-piped deck gun on an initial attack. But each situation is different and you do what you have to when necessary."

    Very good post about this. Under "MOST" circumstances I would say not to use deck gun on any residential attack, but in a strip center this is an excellent technique to knock down a large amount of fire and then use handlines to attack the rest. We practice opening the deck gun for about 30 seconds (500 gpm,using about 250 gallons of our 500 gallon tank) The that leaves 250 or so. Of course this depends on amount of fire, common attic space, time of day, etc.
    I would say that you need to go out and actually see how much water you can flow in 30 seconds with this tactic. It is much more than you think. And now most engines have at least 750 gallon tanks so that is even better.

  14. #34
    Forum Member Fire40man's Avatar
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    Let us not be afraid to use a deck gun or an ariel to slow the fire, with this said that means a hand line needs to be getting ready or making its way to the fire. To strictly use a deck gun, I think you would be better off doing nothing. At least then you have an excuse for the fire getting bigger.

  15. #35
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    or blowing it through an apartment ?
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  16. #36
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    There are 2 primary reasons why people achieve less than adequate fire streams while using a deck gun during a "blitz attack."

    #1. They use the deck gun to achieve "big water", but leave the smallest tip on the gun.

    #2. They use the 1 3/4" or 2" tip while operating from the tank. The 750-1000 GPM flow respectively would be great, but the plumbing form the tank most times will only supply 500 gpm.

    The lesson: While operating a deck gun from tank water, you need to use the 1 1/2" tip.

    Going on a run, more to follow.........maybe.......
    Robert Kramer
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    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  17. #37
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    I figure it depends on what you have. We've used them on everything from garage fires, to brush/grass fires. Yes they work, but it all depends on what you have going. I'd never use it if there was a possibility of a trapped party. Nusiance fires are a different story, wouldn't think twice about it on a car, brush, dumpster etc. fire. It has it's place, as most have said it's another tool to use, as long as it's used properly.
    FF/NREMT-B

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  18. #38
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    I wish I had the extra manpower to do both, deck gun and taking a line in.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffchun
    I wish I had the extra manpower to do both, deck gun and taking a line in.
    You would do both? Uhhhhhh......well......you do that. Tell ya what, I'll even be at the front door feeding line in, you can take the nozzle, won't even fight ya for it.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  20. #40
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    My department, and a couple surrounding departments use the deck gun tactic on initial attack based soully on initial size up of the fire. It may or may not be used. It has worked two or three times recently that I can recall, knocking down the main body of fire, and having the interior guys knock down the rest with handlines. All structures were saved and not made into parking lots.

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