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  1. #41
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    My department, and a couple surrounding departments use the deck gun tactic on initial attack based soully on initial size up of the fire. It may or may not be used. It has worked two or three times recently that I can recall, knocking down the main body of fire, and having the interior guys knock down the rest with handlines. All structures were saved and not made into parking lots.
    I dont think the arguement against deck guns is necessarily about saving the structure. When you operate that into a window or door, you are writing off any chance of finding viable victims in that building.

    would I use the deck gun first for offensive attack, sure. With a crew inside, no. Would I like to have line stretched, search going on, coordinated venting and then attack with a handline, sure. But with 2 men on the engine first in, no hydrants, fire showing from the front window (no survivours in a flashed over room, it just doesnt happen)
    Just because fire is showing out a window does not mean the room has flashed over. I have seen a fire coming out square from a window, only to get inside the room and have a bunk bed burning. JUST the bunk bed. The rest of the large room was very livable, because the windows gave so fast and drew the fire away. I understand the idea because of severe short staffing, but to say you wont do it with a crew inside because of a danger, why take the chance of killing a possible viable victim?
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.


  2. #42
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    Please someone explain the writting off victoms by using the deck gun. If the victom is in another room or on another floor how does the use of a deck gun ruin their surviability chance? Even if a victom is lying on a bed and the room is going and you hit the ceiling from the outside with a deck gun the chances of that victom being mortaly injured by the deck gun rather than inhaling the CO from smoke as the fire increases in size is slim to none. REMEMBER: using a fog nozzle on a deck gun will do a lot more damage than a smooth bore. The smooth bore will reduce BTU's but not disturb the thermal balance where a fog will make the droplets expand 1700 times it size and steam burn the people in the area as well as push the fire around to other areas of the building

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCK61
    Please someone explain the writting off victoms by using the deck gun. If the victom is in another room or on another floor how does the use of a deck gun ruin their surviability chance? Even if a victom is lying on a bed and the room is going and you hit the ceiling from the outside with a deck gun the chances of that victom being mortaly injured by the deck gun rather than inhaling the CO from smoke as the fire increases in size is slim to none. REMEMBER: using a fog nozzle on a deck gun will do a lot more damage than a smooth bore. The smooth bore will reduce BTU's but not disturb the thermal balance where a fog will make the droplets expand 1700 times it size and steam burn the people in the area as well as push the fire around to other areas of the building
    The ability for the human lungs to withstand heated air decrease as the humidity increases. Hot dry air is very tollerable up to extreemly high temps...add in moisture the threshold drops and burns will occur. These are undisputable facts.

    Also any stream will push the fire around to some degree or another...especially one with as much force as a large caliber stream from a stang or deck gun.

    It is a universal rule that firemen aren't allowed on the fire floor when a LCS is used...why should it be any different for potential victims?

    FTM-PTB

    PS-Nycktfbl's comments illustrate why it would appear those with minimal experience and qualifications are developing these procedures...anyone with any relevant expereince such as his knows what looks like a good job from the outside...many times ends up being much smaller in reality.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-06-2006 at 07:33 AM.

  4. #44
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    Deck guns just ruin a good lead out!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

  5. #45
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    Yeah but deck guns are so safe! I dont have to commit to the fire dwelling! All I have to do it open the gun and wait for the fire to either go out or burn thru the roof. Aggressive FFers say I dont save anything. I disagree! You can always rebuild on the foundation I save.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

  6. #46
    Forum Member clancyxdogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PFDTruck18
    Yeah but deck guns are so safe! I dont have to commit to the fire dwelling! All I have to do it open the gun and wait for the fire to either go out or burn thru the roof. Aggressive FFers say I dont save anything. I disagree! You can always rebuild on the foundation I save.
    Yeah, that's what I say-- stay out of those burning buildings, a guy could get hurt or something.

  7. #47
    Forum Member fftrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    Just because fire is showing out a window does not mean the room has flashed over. I have seen a fire coming out square from a window, only to get inside the room and have a bunk bed burning. JUST the bunk bed. The rest of the large room was very livable, because the windows gave so fast and drew the fire away. I understand the idea because of severe short staffing, but to say you wont do it with a crew inside because of a danger, why take the chance of killing a possible viable victim?
    You mean like summertime when the windows are open?? Simple fire out the window is indicitive of nothing but there is a confirmed fire. Volume and 'force' of fire out the window is a different thing. Similar to your bunk bed theory, we had a fire a few summers back and the first arriving cop was screaming "tell the fire dept to hurry up this thing is cooking its already blowing out the window" Myself and my partner got inside, the bedroom door was closed. Opened it up and found the TV malfunctioned, caught fire along with the book case that was being used as a TV Stand and the curtains. All these things together put the height of the said TV at the window sill and needless to say the fire went right through the screen and out the window. I think it was all of about 90 seconds of water and we were done.

    I still standby the situation dictates the tactic. The one time we used it on the car fire in the garage I mentioned earlier worked great for an initial knockdown while crews flaked out their handlines to go in and finish it off and mop up. As soon as their lines were charged, the deck gun was off and they advanced into the garage. Just have a sustained water supply at the ready because as most of us know these things use big amounts of water real quick.

  8. #48
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFTrainer
    I still standby the situation dictates the tactic. The one time we used it on the car fire in the garage I mentioned earlier worked great for an initial knockdown while crews flaked out their handlines to go in and finish it off and mop up. As soon as their lines were charged, the deck gun was off and they advanced into the garage. Just have a sustained water supply at the ready because as most of us know these things use big amounts of water real quick.

    I have been to a bunch of these.....never needed a deck gun......nothing a 1.75" couldn't handle from the interior.......or a 2.5" for a couple of cars......

    A situation I would use it on.........a fire building 100% invovled and causing an exposure problem. Stretch to the most exposed exposure, and operate the deck pipe on the original bldg.....a REAL good move would be for the ECC to stretch a dry line to the next seriously exposed building, and leave it for the next due engine.....if practical.

    Just my experiance and opinion......

    I am a firm believer that the sky doesn't burn.....fire out windows=good. Half of my job is done.....

  9. #49
    Forum Member fftrainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    I am a firm believer that the sky doesn't burn.....fire out windows=good. Half of my job is done.....
    I would think it would stand a chance of it in the Bronx!?!?

    I agree with that part. It generally makes for an easy job of getting in and keep pushing the smoke and heat out the window it already started out of on its own.

    The situation we used it on was 2 cars in the garage with a 4 man engine including the driver as the first arriving unit along with a 3 man truck(true truck, no water or pump!) and a hydrant at the front of the fire building. The IC opted for a quick hit by the engine using the deck gun and 1 FF while the other two flaked the line. All residents accounted for standing with patrol. Truck guys secured the interior door connecting the living area to the garage. It worked for us that day.

  10. #50
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    I think it's yet another tactic to have on hand for situations where you have a probie that can't find the bolt cutters or the owner fumbles the keys to the fence and you got to get this fire knocked back and save the exposure.
    We had all that happen last summer at my old department and while most of us looked at the trailer getting knocked off its foundation with the response of"Kewel!",it did put the fire back enough that we found the cutters,and got a 2"line stretched while the second due rig ran out their hydrant line and fed us water to finish the job.We did lose the trailer we had been called about due to the delay in getting the gate open but the lot owner's home(the taxpayer)was saved with just some scorched and melted siding.
    You might not need this tactic at every fire but then we don't need the BLS bag at every run either but it stays in the compartment for when you DO need it,right?Like I said at first,it's another tactic that you have up your sleeve because I don't think any of us likes to lose more than we have to on this job.

  11. #51
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    Default The deck gun issue............

    I was personally on a fire that we incorporated this tactic, however we modified it.
    The situation was that as we pulled-up, we could tell we had a garage fire. We were on a 50' quint (I am sure that some ppl think that 50' isn' t a true quint, but try to tell our City Managers that). I spotted at a hydrant (fortunate for us it was right in front of the house), going with a front suction connection, the Captain did his walk around and the FF extended the ladder just a little bit(since it was a farely long driveway).
    Once the Captain confirmed the occupants were out, and the fire was being held in check by the fire rated wall, we opened the ladder pipe. The fire was "browned/blacked out" (whichever your department uses).
    When the second unit was staged and awaiting an assignment, the I.C. (my Captain) instructed them to pull the #1 preconnect (200' of 1 3/4" combat line) for overhaul. When the crew stepped-off the Engine, the look on their faces was priceless..........
    Once the overhaul and additional operations were finished, our department did a post-incident critique. All the members of our department agreed that it was a very good tactical decision. Upon further investigation we found that the fire was originally started from the occupants cooking meth in the garage...... this fact reinforced the tactic chosen.
    Now, we didn' t just wake-up some day and say........ "hey, let' s use the ladder pipe on our next fire." We had trained and became proficient with this tactic, prior to it being used.
    Would I personally employ this tactic again? YES!!!! Was it AWESOME? YES!!!!!
    However, I would not recommend this tactic on all FS. After all, that is why we are called Firefighters.......... we select the appropriate weapon and then bring it to the "beast." Much like a kickboxer does, if he knows that he can K.O. his opponent with a heavy blow, then he (I) will be more aggressive and do it.
    If this is something that your department is looking at, then please do your customers a huge favor and research and train first......... then once all department members are proficient at this tactic, employ it for the appropriate situation.



    Remember: "Be LOUD and be PROUD, it just might save your can at an intersection!!!!!!!!!!!"

  12. #52
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    Default Rapid Attack moniter

    If you use a rapid attack moniter as a primary offensive application, I can see them work. You would set these up inside of an entrance way of a heavy fire load structure, such as a church or large office to PUSH the fire OUT. I definately do not see deck guns being used as anything but defensive in structual firefighting.

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