Deck Gun for Fire Attack

Recently we've had a number of structure fires where our first in engine determined that unloading 500 Gal of water using the deck gun was the best method of attacking the fire. The results have been mixed from a quick knock down to a creating a parking lot from the building on fire.

This appraoch goes against what I've been taught- it's best to attack the fire by not pushing it back into the structure. Am I just old school? Is the best thing since class A foam or??

I'm interested in other opinions and if depts might have sops which define such a strategy.

Do you agree with this tatic? Why? When would you believe it's warranted

A town near me tried that tactic for a while. Once they were done burning down houses, they went back to going inside and putting the fire out.

Can it work? I guess, but I have never seen it.

while not a perscribed method I have seen and know of those who deploy the deck gun for a quick knockdown and simultaneoulsy (sp) flake out the handlines.........

The deck therory works very well when it's done right or as most of you know if it's not it's going to the ground. Here are some key points to using this. Don't empty your tank, throttle up then open the gun and give it about 5 or 6 seconds. You don't even need to put the fire out but to stop the BTU's which is about 50 to 100 gallons of water and while this is being done a line does need to be led out. Example: 1 story house with fire showing out the front door and picture window. Engine stops where the truck goes breifly like the engineer doesn't even get out. the officer does the throttling and deck gun if you got a top mount pump if side mount then you need 2 people one at the panel and 1 on top. Then your last guy is pulling the 1 3/4 connected to a leader tip with 2 1/2. The deck gun is pointed through the window and try to deflect the water either off a wall or ceiling to break up the BTU's. After a quick knock the engineer puts it back in road and moves for the truck. Please do not try this with a fog nozzle on your deck gun it will not work. This whole tactic needs to be trained on very often try using a target in a field just to judge distance and aiming the gun. Also don't worry about victoms because depending on your situation they are either deceased already or if it is a multipal story building then you give them a better chance or survival. The late Andy Fredricks from FDNY who was murdered on 9-11 did an exellent program on FDNY and the deck gun which it's on power point but I don't know if it's available. So that's my 2 cents and sorry for the spelling errors

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Originally Posted by danrroby

Recently we've had a number of structure fires where our first in engine determined that unloading 500 Gal of water using the deck gun was the best method of attacking the fire. The results have been mixed from a quick knock down to a creating a parking lot from the building on fire.

This appraoch goes against what I've been taught- it's best to attack the fire by not pushing it back into the structure. Am I just old school? Is the best thing since class A foam or??

I'm interested in other opinions and if depts might have sops which define such a strategy.

Do you agree with this tatic? Why? When would you believe it's warranted

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Unless that building in completely involved and considered a total loss one should be on a handline making their way inside...PERIOD. There is a reason you have that expensive gear...mask...hose...training. For godsake use it when given the chance. Thats what we get that check every two weeks for...isn't it? Who the hell wants to give up an opportunity to get some experience at a fire by blasting it from outside.

If you need a 2 1/2 take the big line...you might be surprised how much fire it will put out with an expeirenced nozzle man.

Although it is good you guys are looking at the results of certain actions on the fireground. Now use that experience to develop some Procedures on use of the Deck gun and when or when not to use it...obviously if you are making parking lots from buildings that could have been saved....that should be something that is discontinued for the betterment of everyone.

FTM-PTB

I agree that an interior attack is the method of choice but, I have used the deck gun attack before. The conditions need to be right for this to occur. We used to have wood shingle roofs (now outlawed) in our city and if we had a good roof fire going a quick attack with the deck gun worked. We would be flaking out the hand lines during this process. Hand lines then would enter the building and complete the extinguishment of the remaining fire. It worked under this sceniero to keep the fire from extending to the exposures.

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Also don't worry about victoms because depending on your situation they are either deceased already or if it is a multipal story building then you give them a better chance or survival

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First of all, how in the hell do you know they are already dead? Secondly, how is pushing fire and smoke back into the building going to increase anyones survival?

We've done it once... on a vehicle fire in the attached garage.

An interior team was sent inside to secure the interior door connecting the garage and the living area and the deck gun took the bulk of fire out of the garage. An 1 3/4 was advanced after main knockdown to mop up.

It worked in this situation. Would I subscribe to it as a standard practice for structure fires probably not.

A little busy to get into to much detail today. I am a big proponet of using the deck gun as an offensive weapon. Obviously there are appropriate situations for its use and ones that call for other methods of attack. I don't quite understand the worry of pushing the fire when using a deck gun though. At a 500gpm rate of flow there should be little pushing. And it that rate of flow did push it and not knock it down then what is a handline at 125-200gpm going to do. It's main purpose in my mind is to make a quick knock down which must be followed up immediately by an aggressive interior attack. Again it is only going to work in certain circumstances so you must know what they are and be able to make the call on the spot. It does work. I have seen it with my own eyes on many occasions and never burned one to the ground doing so at least not one that was so far gone that keeping it off the ground was impossible ;) .

WE have 2 deluge guns on out first out pumper. One midmounted over the pump and one off the rear preconnected to 200 feet of 3 inch.

I have never used the mid mount gun offensively but I have pulled the rear one and used it successfully a few times. to me the difference is we can pplace the portable one exactly where we need it to cut off the fire.

Again, another tool and wise use makes it valuable, poor use guarantees a parking lot.

FyredUp

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Originally Posted by Cirrus

I don't quite understand the worry of pushing the fire when using a deck gun though.

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There is a very good reason we don't allow the use of outside streams into a building while members are operating on the fire floor. The fire will get pushed around and any civilians will be written off completely. As I said...if the whole structure is on fire you have all the justification to use this. However the first action should be to stretch and operate a line inside to protect the main stair case and allow a search of uninvolved areas to occur in relative safety.

FTM-PTB

I have used a initial deck gun attack before... to protect exposures, on dumpsters, fully involved car fires, and once even on a brush fire that was across a brook.

I agree with your points. That is why I said and will stress this time there are times for an offensive attack via a deck gun and times it should not be used at all. The smart officer knows the whens and when nots. When there is any evidence of viable victims then that is a time to not use it offensively obviously. And of course never mix interior ops with exterior streams only bad things happen when you do. The blitz attack is all of 10-30 seconds long. Its purpose to knock down a very heavy fire condition rapidly thus slowling its progress and rate of spread throughout the remainder of the structure along with making the fire more manageble for the attack lines. During the brief blitz attack the attack handlines are positioned to move in once it is complete. From that point on its business as usually, aggressive interior ops. Hope that explains my position and thoughts a little better.

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Originally Posted by FFFRED

There is a very good reason we don't allow the use of outside streams into a building while members are operating on the fire floor. The fire will get pushed around and any civilians will be written off completely. As I said...if the whole structure is on fire you have all the justification to use this. However the first action should be to stretch and operate a line inside to protect the main stair case and allow a search of uninvolved areas to occur in relative safety.

FTM-PTB

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they work very well for fully involved house trailer fires. matched up with a 2.5 and a smooth bore tip.

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Originally Posted by newbomb

they work very well for fully involved house trailer fires. matched up with a 2.5 and a smooth bore tip.

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One of the best stops I ever saw on a house trailer was with a deck gun. Ive used it on car fires, its great for dumpsters, tree fires, boat fires. Saw one used on a 2 story strip shopping center (wood frame) to cut off the fire spread.

Neat trick with our quint is to extend the tip over the top of the dumpster, point the nozzle down and open up. Nothing like a 1000gpm sprinkler head for quick knockdown:cool:

Never used one on a SFD though.

Just another tool in the box.

When I first read this post, my initial thought was "NO WAY. NEVER."

But, we must always remember to be open-minded and willing to accept new ideas. Some of you have posted evidence to support this attack, although it goes completely against everything I've learned (and taught).

I still believe this is NOT an option to be used unless you are extremely knowledgeable, skilled, and experienced, but I'd be interested in doing more research and training to see what kind of effect it has. I would definitely not try it yet, but I'm willing to learn more and decide if this may be a new, innovative tactic.

On the other hand, if you've got a building that's a total loss, no victims (or no viable victims), then sure - knock yourself out - surround and drown with the deck gun.

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Originally Posted by firemedicgm

On the other hand, if you've got a building that's a total loss, no victims (or no viable victims), then sure - knock yourself out - surround and drown with the deck gun.

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Thats the problem bro, one must conduct a search prior to using this tactic and unless this is done...there is no way one won't stretch a line to attack a fire while the search is underway. The whole idea as I see it here is to first hit the fire with the stang 1st thing once on scene...so it is impossible to get search done and protect the interior stairs.

Even as some suggested 20-30 seconds...or whatever is plently long enough to drive a fire back into a structure and kill any nearby victims.

The only time I could see using a deck gun is to protect civilians comming down the fire escape...and even then one isn't supposed to put the water in a window just on the building to create a spray and cover the escape route.

It doesn't meet the standard of performance on the fireground therefore I would argue it has no business in the books unless as stated before the building is a complete loss.

FTM-PTB

I just don't see the correlation (big word), betwen using deck gun and "offensive" attack. Was at a fire several weeks ago where we lost water supply (long story), attic fire and had 3rd due engine hit fire through attic scuttle with deck gun....members had retreated before, resulted in brief knockdown till water supply reastablished. Good thread though, I must always remain open minded and it's an option in jobs that go wrong.

"Another tool in the box". Great way to put it. You know, I've got a 1 3/8" wrench in my tool box, but I only need it when there is a 1 3/8" nut that needs to be turned. Sure I don' use it all the time, but, there are times is works very well. We have a concrete barrier separating the North and South lanes of I-75. One of our engine companies showed up at a vehicle fire on the opposite side. They called for a company to respond from the opposite direction, and used their deck gun across the interstate to knock the fire down until the second engine arrived.
I've used a pre-piped deck gun on a couple of fires with good results. #1, arrived at a fully involved, but still standing barn. Laid in 800 ft.of LDH, and started with the deck gun. We supplied the second in engine and they worked on the other side of the barn with their deck gun. After knock down, went to hand lines and finished up. We left the barn standing. #2, District officer arrived at a 1 1/2 story SFD, on fire across the entire front. This house had a porch that wrapped around from the front to the #2 side. Fire started on the porch, and spread laterally across the entire porch. Exposure on #2 side on fire at eaves. Knowing we had a well involved fire with exposure involvement, we laid in 500 ft. of LDH, and while the rest of the crew was pulling the handlines, used the deck gun to put out the exposure, and with 2 sweeps across the front of the house knocked down the majority of the fire. Finished up with the handlines, and didn't push the fire throughout the house.
I don't think you should start off with the deck gun on everything, but, I also think that you have to consider all your tools when making your decisions.

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Originally Posted by LFD2203

"Another tool in the box". Great way to put it. You know, I've got a 1 3/8" wrench in my tool box, but I only need it when there is a 1 3/8" nut that needs to be turned. Sure I don' use it all the time, but, there are times is works very well. We have a concrete barrier separating the North and South lanes of I-75. One of our engine companies showed up at a vehicle fire on the opposite side. They called for a company to respond from the opposite direction, and used their deck gun across the interstate to knock the fire down until the second engine arrived.
I've used a pre-piped deck gun on a couple of fires with good results. #1, arrived at a fully involved, but still standing barn. Laid in 800 ft.of LDH, and started with the deck gun. We supplied the second in engine and they worked on the other side of the barn with their deck gun. After knock down, went to hand lines and finished up. We left the barn standing. #2, District officer arrived at a 1 1/2 story SFD, on fire across the entire front. This house had a porch that wrapped around from the front to the #2 side. Fire started on the porch, and spread laterally across the entire porch. Exposure on #2 side on fire at eaves. Knowing we had a well involved fire with exposure involvement, we laid in 500 ft. of LDH, and while the rest of the crew was pulling the handlines, used the deck gun to put out the exposure, and with 2 sweeps across the front of the house knocked down the majority of the fire. Finished up with the handlines, and didn't push the fire throughout the house.
I don't think you should start off with the deck gun on everything, but, I also think that you have to consider all your tools when making your decisions.

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The thread is about structure fires and this newly created misnomer that one can use a deck gun or other Large caliber appliance "offensively" from the street. :rolleyes: This has nothing to do with car fires on a high-way or tools in a tool box. Just because some guy writes a few articles that distort or ignore basic firefighting principals or call it something that sounds cool like "blitz attack" doesn't mean it is a sound tactic.

No one has a problem about using it on an exposure. That isn't the issue at all.

You wouldn't "sweep" the front of the house if guys were in there searching would you? That is a no-no going back decades in every text I've ever read. I would cite personal experience however I can't ever recall being inside when someone opened up a deck gun into us...because this just isn't safe to do. Then why would you do it before it is even plausible that a search was conducted and turned up negative? Remember any victims aren't going to be wearing turnouts and a Mask. Even then if a search was completed...why take the risk of blowing the fire inside the structure...there are too many unknowns and this really amounts to Engines taking the easy route for firefighting. There is a very good reason the books and procedures of most depts prohibit such actions...decades of experince have shown it not to be a safe or effective tactic.

Large Caliber Streams entrain vast amounts of air and will push fire around. Not to mention the danger of being hit by the stream itself. Stretch a line...protect the interior stairs...allow the truck to conduct a search and put the fire out...it is so simple I don't understand the need to change it.

FTM-PTB