1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2

    Default Deck Gun for Fire Attack

    Recently we've had a number of structure fires where our first in engine determined that unloading 500 Gal of water using the deck gun was the best method of attacking the fire. The results have been mixed from a quick knock down to a creating a parking lot from the building on fire.

    This appraoch goes against what I've been taught- it's best to attack the fire by not pushing it back into the structure. Am I just old school? Is the best thing since class A foam or??

    I'm interested in other opinions and if depts might have sops which define such a strategy.

    Do you agree with this tatic? Why? When would you believe it's warranted

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,700

    Default

    A town near me tried that tactic for a while. Once they were done burning down houses, they went back to going inside and putting the fire out.

    Can it work? I guess, but I have never seen it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    while not a perscribed method I have seen and know of those who deploy the deck gun for a quick knockdown and simultaneoulsy (sp) flake out the handlines.........
    Last edited by Weruj1; 01-25-2006 at 12:20 PM. Reason: sausagefingering
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    191

    Default

    The deck therory works very well when it's done right or as most of you know if it's not it's going to the ground. Here are some key points to using this. Don't empty your tank, throttle up then open the gun and give it about 5 or 6 seconds. You don't even need to put the fire out but to stop the BTU's which is about 50 to 100 gallons of water and while this is being done a line does need to be led out. Example: 1 story house with fire showing out the front door and picture window. Engine stops where the truck goes breifly like the engineer doesn't even get out. the officer does the throttling and deck gun if you got a top mount pump if side mount then you need 2 people one at the panel and 1 on top. Then your last guy is pulling the 1 3/4 connected to a leader tip with 2 1/2. The deck gun is pointed through the window and try to deflect the water either off a wall or ceiling to break up the BTU's. After a quick knock the engineer puts it back in road and moves for the truck. Please do not try this with a fog nozzle on your deck gun it will not work. This whole tactic needs to be trained on very often try using a target in a field just to judge distance and aiming the gun. Also don't worry about victoms because depending on your situation they are either deceased already or if it is a multipal story building then you give them a better chance or survival. The late Andy Fredricks from FDNY who was murdered on 9-11 did an exellent program on FDNY and the deck gun which it's on power point but I don't know if it's available. So that's my 2 cents and sorry for the spelling errors

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by danrroby
    Recently we've had a number of structure fires where our first in engine determined that unloading 500 Gal of water using the deck gun was the best method of attacking the fire. The results have been mixed from a quick knock down to a creating a parking lot from the building on fire.

    This appraoch goes against what I've been taught- it's best to attack the fire by not pushing it back into the structure. Am I just old school? Is the best thing since class A foam or??

    I'm interested in other opinions and if depts might have sops which define such a strategy.

    Do you agree with this tatic? Why? When would you believe it's warranted
    Unless that building in completely involved and considered a total loss one should be on a handline making their way inside...PERIOD. There is a reason you have that expensive gear...mask...hose...training. For godsake use it when given the chance. Thats what we get that check every two weeks for...isn't it? Who the hell wants to give up an opportunity to get some experience at a fire by blasting it from outside.

    If you need a 2 1/2 take the big line...you might be surprised how much fire it will put out with an expeirenced nozzle man.

    Although it is good you guys are looking at the results of certain actions on the fireground. Now use that experience to develop some Procedures on use of the Deck gun and when or when not to use it...obviously if you are making parking lots from buildings that could have been saved....that should be something that is discontinued for the betterment of everyone.

    FTM-PTB

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    587

    Default

    I agree that an interior attack is the method of choice but, I have used the deck gun attack before. The conditions need to be right for this to occur. We used to have wood shingle roofs (now outlawed) in our city and if we had a good roof fire going a quick attack with the deck gun worked. We would be flaking out the hand lines during this process. Hand lines then would enter the building and complete the extinguishment of the remaining fire. It worked under this sceniero to keep the fire from extending to the exposures.
    K-9 hunt, the ultimate challange.
    EVERYONE GOES HOME
    IACOJ

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,579

    Default

    Also don't worry about victoms because depending on your situation they are either deceased already or if it is a multipal story building then you give them a better chance or survival
    First of all, how in the hell do you know they are already dead? Secondly, how is pushing fire and smoke back into the building going to increase anyones survival?

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    fftrainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Northern, NJ
    Posts
    889

    Default

    We've done it once... on a vehicle fire in the attached garage.

    An interior team was sent inside to secure the interior door connecting the garage and the living area and the deck gun took the bulk of fire out of the garage. An 1 3/4 was advanced after main knockdown to mop up.

    It worked in this situation. Would I subscribe to it as a standard practice for structure fires probably not.

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    31

    Default The offensive blitz attack

    A little busy to get into to much detail today. I am a big proponet of using the deck gun as an offensive weapon. Obviously there are appropriate situations for its use and ones that call for other methods of attack. I don't quite understand the worry of pushing the fire when using a deck gun though. At a 500gpm rate of flow there should be little pushing. And it that rate of flow did push it and not knock it down then what is a handline at 125-200gpm going to do. It's main purpose in my mind is to make a quick knock down which must be followed up immediately by an aggressive interior attack. Again it is only going to work in certain circumstances so you must know what they are and be able to make the call on the spot. It does work. I have seen it with my own eyes on many occasions and never burned one to the ground doing so at least not one that was so far gone that keeping it off the ground was impossible .

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,274

    Default

    WE have 2 deluge guns on out first out pumper. One midmounted over the pump and one off the rear preconnected to 200 feet of 3 inch.

    I have never used the mid mount gun offensively but I have pulled the rear one and used it successfully a few times. to me the difference is we can pplace the portable one exactly where we need it to cut off the fire.

    Again, another tool and wise use makes it valuable, poor use guarantees a parking lot.

    FyredUp

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrus
    I don't quite understand the worry of pushing the fire when using a deck gun though.
    There is a very good reason we don't allow the use of outside streams into a building while members are operating on the fire floor. The fire will get pushed around and any civilians will be written off completely. As I said...if the whole structure is on fire you have all the justification to use this. However the first action should be to stretch and operate a line inside to protect the main stair case and allow a search of uninvolved areas to occur in relative safety.

    FTM-PTB

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    I have used a initial deck gun attack before... to protect exposures, on dumpsters, fully involved car fires, and once even on a brush fire that was across a brook.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    31

    Default

    I agree with your points. That is why I said and will stress this time there are times for an offensive attack via a deck gun and times it should not be used at all. The smart officer knows the whens and when nots. When there is any evidence of viable victims then that is a time to not use it offensively obviously. And of course never mix interior ops with exterior streams only bad things happen when you do. The blitz attack is all of 10-30 seconds long. Its purpose to knock down a very heavy fire condition rapidly thus slowling its progress and rate of spread throughout the remainder of the structure along with making the fire more manageble for the attack lines. During the brief blitz attack the attack handlines are positioned to move in once it is complete. From that point on its business as usually, aggressive interior ops. Hope that explains my position and thoughts a little better.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    There is a very good reason we don't allow the use of outside streams into a building while members are operating on the fire floor. The fire will get pushed around and any civilians will be written off completely. As I said...if the whole structure is on fire you have all the justification to use this. However the first action should be to stretch and operate a line inside to protect the main stair case and allow a search of uninvolved areas to occur in relative safety.

    FTM-PTB

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    135

    Default

    they work very well for fully involved house trailer fires. matched up with a 2.5 and a smooth bore tip.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by newbomb
    they work very well for fully involved house trailer fires. matched up with a 2.5 and a smooth bore tip.
    One of the best stops I ever saw on a house trailer was with a deck gun. Ive used it on car fires, its great for dumpsters, tree fires, boat fires. Saw one used on a 2 story strip shopping center (wood frame) to cut off the fire spread.

    Neat trick with our quint is to extend the tip over the top of the dumpster, point the nozzle down and open up. Nothing like a 1000gpm sprinkler head for quick knockdown

    Never used one on a SFD though.

    Just another tool in the box.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 01-25-2006 at 04:21 PM.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Emmetsburg, IA
    Posts
    95

    Default Made me think

    When I first read this post, my initial thought was "NO WAY. NEVER."

    But, we must always remember to be open-minded and willing to accept new ideas. Some of you have posted evidence to support this attack, although it goes completely against everything I've learned (and taught).

    I still believe this is NOT an option to be used unless you are extremely knowledgeable, skilled, and experienced, but I'd be interested in doing more research and training to see what kind of effect it has. I would definitely not try it yet, but I'm willing to learn more and decide if this may be a new, innovative tactic.

    On the other hand, if you've got a building that's a total loss, no victims (or no viable victims), then sure - knock yourself out - surround and drown with the deck gun.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firemedicgm
    On the other hand, if you've got a building that's a total loss, no victims (or no viable victims), then sure - knock yourself out - surround and drown with the deck gun.
    Thats the problem bro, one must conduct a search prior to using this tactic and unless this is done...there is no way one won't stretch a line to attack a fire while the search is underway. The whole idea as I see it here is to first hit the fire with the stang 1st thing once on scene...so it is impossible to get search done and protect the interior stairs.

    Even as some suggested 20-30 seconds...or whatever is plently long enough to drive a fire back into a structure and kill any nearby victims.

    The only time I could see using a deck gun is to protect civilians comming down the fire escape...and even then one isn't supposed to put the water in a window just on the building to create a spray and cover the escape route.

    It doesn't meet the standard of performance on the fireground therefore I would argue it has no business in the books unless as stated before the building is a complete loss.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 01-27-2006 at 12:29 PM.

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    275

    Default

    I just don't see the correlation (big word), betwen using deck gun and "offensive" attack. Was at a fire several weeks ago where we lost water supply (long story), attic fire and had 3rd due engine hit fire through attic scuttle with deck gun....members had retreated before, resulted in brief knockdown till water supply reastablished. Good thread though, I must always remain open minded and it's an option in jobs that go wrong.

  19. #19
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    KENTUCKY
    Posts
    410

    Default

    "Another tool in the box". Great way to put it. You know, I've got a 1 3/8" wrench in my tool box, but I only need it when there is a 1 3/8" nut that needs to be turned. Sure I don' use it all the time, but, there are times is works very well. We have a concrete barrier separating the North and South lanes of I-75. One of our engine companies showed up at a vehicle fire on the opposite side. They called for a company to respond from the opposite direction, and used their deck gun across the interstate to knock the fire down until the second engine arrived.
    I've used a pre-piped deck gun on a couple of fires with good results. #1, arrived at a fully involved, but still standing barn. Laid in 800 ft.of LDH, and started with the deck gun. We supplied the second in engine and they worked on the other side of the barn with their deck gun. After knock down, went to hand lines and finished up. We left the barn standing. #2, District officer arrived at a 1 1/2 story SFD, on fire across the entire front. This house had a porch that wrapped around from the front to the #2 side. Fire started on the porch, and spread laterally across the entire porch. Exposure on #2 side on fire at eaves. Knowing we had a well involved fire with exposure involvement, we laid in 500 ft. of LDH, and while the rest of the crew was pulling the handlines, used the deck gun to put out the exposure, and with 2 sweeps across the front of the house knocked down the majority of the fire. Finished up with the handlines, and didn't push the fire throughout the house.
    I don't think you should start off with the deck gun on everything, but, I also think that you have to consider all your tools when making your decisions.
    Last edited by LFD2203; 01-27-2006 at 12:53 PM.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LFD2203
    "Another tool in the box". Great way to put it. You know, I've got a 1 3/8" wrench in my tool box, but I only need it when there is a 1 3/8" nut that needs to be turned. Sure I don' use it all the time, but, there are times is works very well. We have a concrete barrier separating the North and South lanes of I-75. One of our engine companies showed up at a vehicle fire on the opposite side. They called for a company to respond from the opposite direction, and used their deck gun across the interstate to knock the fire down until the second engine arrived.
    I've used a pre-piped deck gun on a couple of fires with good results. #1, arrived at a fully involved, but still standing barn. Laid in 800 ft.of LDH, and started with the deck gun. We supplied the second in engine and they worked on the other side of the barn with their deck gun. After knock down, went to hand lines and finished up. We left the barn standing. #2, District officer arrived at a 1 1/2 story SFD, on fire across the entire front. This house had a porch that wrapped around from the front to the #2 side. Fire started on the porch, and spread laterally across the entire porch. Exposure on #2 side on fire at eaves. Knowing we had a well involved fire with exposure involvement, we laid in 500 ft. of LDH, and while the rest of the crew was pulling the handlines, used the deck gun to put out the exposure, and with 2 sweeps across the front of the house knocked down the majority of the fire. Finished up with the handlines, and didn't push the fire throughout the house.
    I don't think you should start off with the deck gun on everything, but, I also think that you have to consider all your tools when making your decisions.

    The thread is about structure fires and this newly created misnomer that one can use a deck gun or other Large caliber appliance "offensively" from the street. This has nothing to do with car fires on a high-way or tools in a tool box. Just because some guy writes a few articles that distort or ignore basic firefighting principals or call it something that sounds cool like "blitz attack" doesn't mean it is a sound tactic.

    No one has a problem about using it on an exposure. That isn't the issue at all.

    You wouldn't "sweep" the front of the house if guys were in there searching would you? That is a no-no going back decades in every text I've ever read. I would cite personal experience however I can't ever recall being inside when someone opened up a deck gun into us...because this just isn't safe to do. Then why would you do it before it is even plausible that a search was conducted and turned up negative? Remember any victims aren't going to be wearing turnouts and a Mask. Even then if a search was completed...why take the risk of blowing the fire inside the structure...there are too many unknowns and this really amounts to Engines taking the easy route for firefighting. There is a very good reason the books and procedures of most depts prohibit such actions...decades of experince have shown it not to be a safe or effective tactic.

    Large Caliber Streams entrain vast amounts of air and will push fire around. Not to mention the danger of being hit by the stream itself. Stretch a line...protect the interior stairs...allow the truck to conduct a search and put the fire out...it is so simple I don't understand the need to change it.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 01-27-2006 at 01:15 PM.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    191

    Default

    Everyone keeps talking about pushing the fire around which is possible if you use a fog nozzle which will give you a straight stream but it is still a broken stream which will induce air and push your fire around. If you use a smooth bore nozzle there is very little if no air in the stream and with practice and knowledge you can use it as a great offensive tool just ask the city of Chicago or even better if you see John McNamara who is retired now he'll tell you a little story about a person who volunteered to test the pushing the fire theory in a training building. To make a long story short after the test the very wet firefighter came out and related that the fire never left the fire room. On a side note back in the 80's the city used a deck gun on an attct fire with people inside the atic which had fatal results So yes this is a very great tool to use especially since most of use are undermanned but it needs a lot of training to make it work. BTW using one of the portable monitors like a TFT Blitzfire which is usually preconnected off the back hose bed on some departments it's the same theory since the flow is still 500 GPM. RIP Jimmy Hill.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Lebanon, Ct.
    Posts
    22

    Default

    would I use the deck gun first for offensive attack, sure. With a crew inside, no. Would I like to have line stretched, search going on, coordinated venting and then attack with a handline, sure. But with 2 men on the engine first in, no hydrants, fire showing from the front window (no survivours in a flashed over room, it just doesnt happen) would I put 5-10 seconds of deck gun flow into that window while the 2nd man pulls the line, forces the door, waits for more help (2 in 2 out?) bet I would. Over pump the gun, going 100-150 psi, getting up the throttle prior to opening up, dont waste water flowing while you jockey the throttle (mounted guns, dont worry about reaction). the best use of your gallons is put them where the fire is with a flow that is sufficent to do the job. 600 GPM - more than any handline can get, for 10 seconds into a fire room uses only 100 gallons and will get you more bang for your gallon than the handline that you get into position 2 minutes later. You have to go with the situation, but dont count out a heavy stream as the opening act. Well placed water does wounders, better when there is more.
    Capt406, IACOJ#780

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    191

    Default

    Thank you Lieut706 you know what I'm talking about.

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TRUCK61
    Everyone keeps talking about pushing the fire around which is possible if you use a fog nozzle which will give you a straight stream but it is still a broken stream which will induce air and push your fire around. If you use a smooth bore nozzle there is very little if no air in the stream and with practice and knowledge you can use it as a great offensive tool just ask the city of Chicago or even better if you see John McNamara who is retired now he'll tell you a little story about a person who volunteered to test the pushing the fire theory in a training building.

    Well....about 2 or 3 years ago in same city in Western Orange County, NY (and a few others in the past, same place)....they managed to burn down a rather large apt building using this tactic. (and yes they had smoothbore LCS). Although I did not fight this fire, I sat back and watched it all go down. Fire would come out one window....they would open up a LCS....push it in....and it would come out another window....then the would open up on that window......this went on and on until they stopped it at the foundation.

    As far as my experiance....In the vollies, I have been on the wrong end of a 2.5" and a Firefighter with no brain a few times.....(I should say Fire Container). Each time unbeknownst to me....some bal*bag figured fire out a window is a bad thing....and decided to open up with a 2.5". The fire was pushed hard and fast right onto us.......It sounds light a frieght train too....I can not believe how fast it moved too! I can only imagine if it was a 500+gpm appliance......chances are I probably wouldn't be here.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber
    mcaldwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Panorama, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    3,022

    Default

    I have tried the blitz attack principle on a few post flashover fires with with excellent results. Probably the best example of how to implement it was during a controlled burn we did up North a few years back.

    We had a 2-storey stick frame duplex in which we were going to burn the entire contents of a living room to post-flashover conditions. The living room was completely closed off to the rest of the house via an interior door, and the only significant route out of the room was the bay window. In this scenario, we pre-staged an interior team down the hallway from the living room door, prepared PPV at the back door, and posted a 2 1/2 at the bay window (my team).

    We knew that if we opened the interior door while the room was flashing over, we would have massive heat and fire spread to the hallway, and there would be an unacceptable chance that our guys would get burnt. We decided to try and knock down the fire through the bay window, and then PPV the hallway before the attack team knocked down the living room door to extinguish the fire. After allowing the fire to flashover and burn freely for 10 minutes or so, we opened up with the 2 1/2 through the bay window for 20-30 seconds to blacken the fire a little, and then shut down to allow the interior team to make entry in the back. Radio communication was key.

    We were all amazed at how effective it was, and the only issue was the interior knob man who knelt down as soon as he entered the room, burning his knee slightly on the still red hot floor that was pooled with a mix of hot water and melted plastics.

    We have used that tactic a couple of times now with great success, including modifying it with the deck gun as the exterior stream (you need 1 less hose team to make it work that way). And it is now often one of the first tools in the box for a fully involved hotel room or apartment fire where we expect the fire to spread or breakthrough the ceiling/door before we have lines in place.

    The keys however are:

    1. Compartmentalized (or at least semi-obstructed) fire that won't readily allow spread throughout the house or building.
    2. If interior teams are in and awaiting exterior knockdown in a particular room, staging of interior team in a protected and defendable location until ready to make entry is essential.
    3. Good radio communication and coordination or interior and exterior teams. Know your target, and limits it's application to that room to avoid unplanned extension.

    Don't fear the deck gun, it's an effective piece of a coordinated intial attack. Just understand it's limitations.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. SOP's for Volunteer FD
    By rumlfire in forum Volunteer Forum
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 11:35 PM
  2. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 09:41 PM
  3. High Pressue
    By YFRMdc51 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 04-03-2001, 02:29 AM
  4. RFP's
    By D Littrell in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-08-2000, 07:36 PM
  5. Thermal Cameras and the like
    By Diane in forum Meet and Greet
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-30-1999, 10:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register