Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23
  1. #1
    Forum Member Skwerl530's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    TN
    Posts
    232

    Default FF's injured in MD

    I received this today on Billy G's Secret List:
    "Hey...
    One firefighter was seriously burned, 2 other FF's had minor injuries and two residents have been taken to hospitals in critical condition after a 3 alarm fire early this morning in Prince George's County.
    Other residents of the 8 story apartment building in Hillcrest Heights are being treated for minor injuries. Companies were called to the Marlboro House Apartments around 0400 in the 3000 block of Branch Avenue. Reports are the conditions were so bad on the second and third floors that some residents jumped from their balconies. Additionally reports are that the fire conditions were heavy enough to spall the concrete on some floors.
    The firefighter is expected to recover from his injuries.
    Take care-BE CAREFUL,
    BillyG
    The Secret List 1-25-06
    www.FirefighterCloseCalls.com

    -----
    To visit Firefighter Close Calls home page, click here:
    http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com "

    Isn't this Hwoods area? I wish all involved a speedy recovery.


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skwerl530
    Additionally reports are that the fire conditions were heavy enough to spall the concrete on some floors.
    The firefighter is expected to recover from his injuries.

    Isn't this Hwoods area? I wish all involved a speedy recovery.
    First this is good news the brothers are expected to recover.

    Second...I don't know what hose they were using...however this is a good reminder to everyone on why one should always take the 2 1/2 and smooth bore off standpipes as is recomended by the NFPA. You don't want to discover on the fire floor your hose/nozzle combo isn't going to provide enough flow to knock down the fire and absorb all the heat in the hallways.

    FTM-PTB

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    16

    Default

    The only one held overnight walked out of the hospital today.

  4. #4
    55 Years & Still Rolling hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Smile And.............

    Skwerl530, Sorry to take so long to get here, I've been a bit busy. illbedam is from here in our area, and he has the scoop. The one person remaining in the Hospital that I've heard of is a resident of the Building. Thank You to all who have expressed concern, but everyone has gone home. I can't comment any more than this, as this Fire was on the other side of the county from us, and we didn't run it.
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,532

    Default

    Wow FFred .. thanks for telling all of us counrty bumkims what size hose and what type of tip we should use. I guess if the FDNY does it we all should.

    I'll make ya a deal .. we won't tell us what you should do in NYC and you don't tell us what we should do.

  6. #6
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,572

    Default

    Country bumpkins? PG county has the same urban ghetto problems that most big cities have, hardly a "country" area. Nobody was telling you what to do, but these arguments about using less that 2 1/2 hose for project/fireproof buildings have happened on this website before, and as evident by what happened in PG county and in Queens yesterday, anything less than 2 1/2 would have killed firemen. But you go keep on doing what you want, no one was ordering you to safely operate in high rise MDs.


    PS. Fred said as recommended by NFPA, not FDNY....why must everything turn into a FDNY right or wrong thread?

  7. #7
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    I'm not taking sides or anything, but here is one of the best pieces of advice I have ever recieved, "Keep in mind that people do things differently everywhere."
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Loco madidus effercio in rutilus effercio.
    Posts
    12,837

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoods
    I can't comment any more than this, as this Fire was on the other side of the county from us, and we didn't run it.
    SHOCK AND HORRORS! You didn't run this call? Waats wi'dat? You made the last two or three in that area over the past few weeks. You're not slow'n down on us are ya Chief? LOL
    If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

    "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

    "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

    Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

    impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

    IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    956

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Wow FFred .. thanks for telling all of us counrty bumkims what size hose and what type of tip we should use. I guess if the FDNY does it we all should.

    I'll make ya a deal .. we won't tell us what you should do in NYC and you don't tell us what we should do.
    How about you realize that 2-1/2 used to be the only line available. Somehow, somwhere, some idiot thought a 100psi fog nozzle and 1.5 was the way to go on a standpipe fire. Have you ever seen what come out of some of these if they never or rarely get used? not only that but you'd have to pump some insane pressures to get proper flow from your 1.5/100psi fog combo. There are three things keeping the rest of the fire service from doing what you should be in a standpipe, or 2nd floor and above fire.

    1. The NFPA has no legal rule against NOT following their codes.

    2. Laziness, and lack of drive to pull the big line when needed.

    3. Lack of proper training, and identification of hazards associated with standpipes.

    It has nothing to do with FFFRED being right, or trying to tell us we are wrong.......but there is a reason as to why it's done.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bossier Parrish, Louisiana
    Posts
    10,532

    Default

    This was not intended as a "vs. FDNY" comment but simply a comment that it is not THE way to do it, as Fred seemed to say. I have dealt with several standpipe fires on 2nd and 3rd floors using 1 3/4" lines with fog nozzles with excellent results. the reality is the "big line" is often to bulky and cumbersome for the staffing of a volunteer department and properly used, 1 or 2 1 3/4" lines can be just as effective. The 1 3/4" also gives you the ability to quickly retreat if the fire attack is ineffective as it is much easier to pull back than the 2 1/2".

    I realize that FDNY uses primarily smooth bores, which is certainly thier choice, however, the majority of the departments out there tend to use the fog nozzles, with great effectiveness. Not only does the fog provide variable patterns but also has the full fog option, which provides a level of personal safety that the smooth bore does not offer.

    As far as the NFPA recoomendations, it's interesting that some of the folks who think we should follow this one thinks its perfectly fine if we ignore the recommndation on full PPE. If you are going to quote NFPA, be prepared to ask why you don't follow all the recommendations.

  11. #11
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    On a Hill, overlooking George's Kingdom
    Posts
    2,572

    Default

    Nobody said 1 3/4" lines WOULDNT work in FP MDS, but eventually, someone WILL get hurt. You will not make it down a hallway of a project building with the door to the apt left open and blowtorch conditions with an 1 3/4" line and fog nozzle. Under normal fire conditions, sure, you can make that push. But with winds blowing the fire back at you, the 1 3/4" has been proven in numerous fires to be of little or no help. The manpower issue is a complete copout. It doesnt take more than 2 or 3 guys to safely operate a 2 1/2" line off a standpipe if they are properly trained. If you have enough manpower to operate 2 1 3/4" lines, like you suggested, then how could you not have enough to operate a 2 1/2"?

    I suggest to everyone who thinks that a 1 3/4" hoseline is enough, do some research on some of these names: Lt. Cavalieri, FF Bohan and FF Bopp. They all died in a project fire under blowtorch conditions with an inadequate hoseline. Even 2 1/2" becomes inadaquate, as evident by the fire in the Rockaways on wednesday. No one here is TELLING you how to operate, but the fire service by nature is a reactive, not proactive entity. SOPs and SOGs get changed or written usually after a death. Just look at our new rope system
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 01-28-2006 at 04:06 PM.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Wow FFred .. thanks for telling all of us counrty bumkims what size hose and what type of tip we should use. I guess if the FDNY does it we all should.

    I'll make ya a deal .. we won't tell us what you should do in NYC and you don't tell us what we should do.
    First I never said anything about FDNY did I? I've worked in 4 different depts, 3 career, and 3 had hi-rises and one was rual. I have experience with many different types of set ups for Standpipe operations...some good...some god-awful. Currently I work an area where I get more high-rise work than most...I've seen the reasoning behind our procedures and the NFPAs.

    I guess the experience and science behind this along with the NFPA regs you guys usually exclaim as the end all of fire service rules and procedures is wrong now that since the FDNY(or insert large city FD name here) follow their recomendations. Since many on here put so much stock in it I figured it would either reinforce or motivate someone to look at their set up. Funny so many want to be soooo proactive on Fire prevention but when it comes to this...there is nothing but excuses and faulty reasoning for not using it. You can screw your productivity while providing "Customer Service" to Mrs. Smith if you kill or burn her while she awaits rescue meanwhile your having to regroup from being unable to make the appartment door next to hers.

    If you don't want to learn from the lessons here...I could give a f*ck less. I don't live in your city and I don't depend on you for my fire protection. But someone out there does and if you take your primary job of being a firefighter seriously you will learn everything you can and use that to make the best judgement...anytime you have the situation described here or the ones encountered by:
    -The Brothers in Starett City, Brooklyn RIP-Lt. Cavalieri, Fr. Bohan and Fr. Bopp-L170.
    -Rockaway Queens last week and in 1996 RIP-Fr. Williams L121.
    I don't think many of you really understand how close we came to loosing some brothers from L-121...Inlcuding as I'm told a Brother who only has TWO weeks in the field.
    -Philladelphia...One Meridian Plaza.
    -Just as E40/L35 mentioned the brothers on the Upper West Side almost became statistics twice within a few years in the late 90's.
    You will realize this IS NOT A F*CKING JOKE!

    We here in the FDNY used to allow the use of 1 3/4 if the officer decided under certain circumstances...however after placing a few brothers in the burn ward and at least a few under 6ft of dirt...we decided to go with what the Engineers and the NFPA always said should be used off a standpipe. Guess what...so did the Denver Fire Department and if my memory serves the Oakland FD. Now however they all require the use of 2 1/2 and smoothbores. What is taught at the major instructor confrences accross this country? Thats right the safety and necessity of larger lines..larger flows and smoothbores.

    This is not to make me feel better about myself or my dept. This is to get some of those out there who read these pages to think and to take advantage of the tragedies and mistakes that others have experienced or endured.


    This was not intended as a "vs. FDNY" comment but simply a comment that it is not THE way to do it, as Fred seemed to say. I have dealt with several standpipe fires on 2nd and 3rd floors using 1 3/4" lines with fog nozzles with excellent results. the reality is the "big line" is often to bulky and cumbersome for the staffing of a volunteer department and properly used, 1 or 2 1 3/4" lines can be just as effective. The 1 3/4" also gives you the ability to quickly retreat if the fire attack is ineffective as it is much easier to pull back than the 2 1/2".
    As someone pointed out...I never mentioned FDNY...would you have dismissed it just the same if I were from the Denver Fire Department?

    Too cumbersome? If you have 5 men...and I don't know of any Depts that have highrises, volly or not that can't manage to get 5 men on a handline...thats all one needs. I've addvanced a 2 1/2" with a fog tip up a staircase...made a hard right turn and advanced it into a fully involved garden appartment...with only my officer backing me up and feeding me hose until the 2nd Due company arrived...the fog cloged on us and we made a great stop on a fire. While not the same as a highrise...it is very similar and that we were advancing this line So don't tell me you can't do it...that is a Bull Sh*t excuse

    As for the supperiority of the 1 3/4" in retreat situations...that I'm afraid is almost laughable if it weren't so ill-concieved and such a dangerous line of thinking. The fact you are taking a 1 3/4 increases the chance that you will have to retreat. If one should take the 2 1/2 you are greatly reducing the chance that one can knockdown the fire or at least hold it untill another line is in place. A soilder chooses his weapons on their ability to kill the enemy NOT on how light they are if he should need to make a hasty retreat and run like a French soilder for the hills.

    Advancing two handlines from a staircase is far from easy...I know I do if often enough..however we are well practiced...you are advocating using two lines both 1 3/4 with fog tips...in order to get the neccesary pressure and flow to equal the one 21/2" your line would either be very very stiff and difficult to bend and move (loss of the mobility you purport as a benefit) or if trying lower pressures will kink and the staffing you claim isn't there is going to be needed to chanse the kinks in two lines instead of one and I imagine both will be complete spagetti in a number of senarios.


    I realize that FDNY uses primarily smooth bores, which is certainly thier choice, however, the majority of the departments out there tend to use the fog nozzles, with great effectiveness. Not only does the fog provide variable patterns but also has the full fog option, which provides a level of personal safety that the smooth bore does not offer.
    Bro, If you think there is any safety feature of a fog nozzle in interior structure firefighting you are believing in a myth and a dangerous one at that. I have a stack of NISOH reports where firemen Died and others were seriously burned and many if not most had guess what??? A fog nozzle. The conditions encountered in a highrise will laugh at this fog pattern(and give steam burns to all of you)...do you really think it is some forcefield or shield that will prevent all the heat and fire from enveloping you? Explain how brothers in Wash DC, Ohio, Tenn, Washington State and others burned alive despite having these fog nozzles with the "protective variable paterns".

    As far as the NFPA recoomendations, it's interesting that some of the folks who think we should follow this one thinks its perfectly fine if we ignore the recommndation on full PPE. If you are going to quote NFPA, be prepared to ask why you don't follow all the recommendations.
    I'm not the one who places stock in what they say...many of you are...thats why I mentioned it. Perhaps you should be asking yourself that same question.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 01-29-2006 at 01:24 PM.

  13. #13
    Forum Member Res343cue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Your 1st due.
    Posts
    1,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    the reality is the "big line" is often to bulky and cumbersome for the staffing of a volunteer department and properly used, 1 or 2 1 3/4" lines can be just as effective.
    If you can get two, inch-and-three-quarter lines in service, why not just take the two-and-a-half to begin with? If you have staffing for two small lines, you definately have the ability to take the "big one".


    Not only does the fog provide variable patterns but also has the full fog option, which provides a level of personal safety that the smooth bore does not offer.
    I didn't care for getting steamed with a fog nozzle. The "protection" wasn't needed when we tried the smoothbore, because the fire went out!
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


    Honorary Disclaimer: While I am a manufacturer representative, I am not here to sell my product. Any advice or knowledge shared is for informational purposes only. I do not use Firehouse.Com for promotional purposes.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl
    PG county has the same urban ghetto problems that most big cities have, hardly a "country" area.
    I hope they users of that "other" web site forum don't see this.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    2,503

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    This was not intended as a "vs. FDNY" comment but simply a comment that it is not THE way to do it, as Fred seemed to say. I have dealt with several standpipe fires on 2nd and 3rd floors using 1 3/4" lines with fog nozzles with excellent results. the reality is the "big line" is often to bulky and cumbersome for the staffing of a volunteer department and properly used, 1 or 2 1 3/4" lines can be just as effective. The 1 3/4" also gives you the ability to quickly retreat if the fire attack is ineffective as it is much easier to pull back than the 2 1/2".

    I realize that FDNY uses primarily smooth bores, which is certainly thier choice, however, the majority of the departments out there tend to use the fog nozzles, with great effectiveness. Not only does the fog provide variable patterns but also has the full fog option, which provides a level of personal safety that the smooth bore does not offer.

    As far as the NFPA recoomendations, it's interesting that some of the folks who think we should follow this one thinks its perfectly fine if we ignore the recommndation on full PPE. If you are going to quote NFPA, be prepared to ask why you don't follow all the recommendations.
    While I like 1 3/4 with fog nozzles as much as the next guy, for a high rise we take 2 1/2 and an 1 1/4 smoothbore. It's the only thing that has a chance against a wind driven high rise fire. As far as retreat goes, if I need to get out that fast, f^@k that hose, I'll get more.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    First of all, I hope all the brothers are making a full recovery. That being said,

    Fred simply said:
    this is a good reminder to everyone on why one should always take the 2 1/2 and smooth bore off standpipes as is recomended by the NFPA.
    The response to his observation was:
    Wow FFred .. thanks for telling all of us counrty bumkims what size hose and what type of tip we should use. I guess if the FDNY does it we all should.

    I'll make ya a deal .. we won't tell us what you should do in NYC and you don't tell us what we should do.
    This was not intended as a "vs. FDNY" comment
    C'mon, why didn't you just say STFU? If this wasn't an attempt to pick a fight, you need some serious people skills training, especially as an "Educator".

    I would be interested to see any credible agency or professional who advocates 1.75" and fog nozzles as a first line off a standpipe. I'm open minded and interested in seeing the pros and cons for myself. My personal experience has shown me that debris from standpipes caused by vandals and internal pipe deterioration can have a profound effect on a fog nozzle if it is lage enough not to pass through the small orifice.

    Further, the friction loss in a 1.75" line is often to high for an effective stream in a fog OR solid bore nozzle if the system is not yet augmented or unable to be augmented due to mechanical failure or isolation valves in the closed position.

    The very simple hydraulics of a larger line providing a higher flow is critical when the delivery system in question is an unknown. It's the old "plan for the worst and hope for the best". We need to approach standpipes with the mindset that they will not be working perfectly and do all we can to overcome the unforseen problems we may encounter.

    For everyone who has operated off a standpipe with 1.75" and fog, with no adverse affects, consider yourself lucky, but your days are numbered. At some point you or your department will be faced with a system that is unable to provide this set up with adequate water and/or pressure. It is my sincere hope that nobody is injured.

    Respectfully,
    Artie

  17. #17
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Lt and Fred,
    While there are some things that happen in FDNY that do both confuse me and downright scare me, I will say that I would wager your department is probably the most experienced at fighting highrise fires. I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions about your (and any other NYC FF)experiences in high rise fires.

    1) have you experienced problems where standpipe connections inside the buildling are open when they should be closed? ie, you have a 30 story building, with fire on the 14th floor. and vandals have opened the standpipe connections on floors 7, 12, 28 and 19. how do you overcome this?

    2) my department only uses 2 inch attack hose. their thinking is that you can get almost as much water out of a 2 inch hose as you can a 2 1/2, but the 2 inch hose is easier to manuver. so instead of using a 2 1/2 inch hose, could you use two 2 inch hoses with a gated Y at the standpipe? wouldn't you get more water out of it? we don't actually do this, but i'm just asking.

    3) Fred, I'm curious. we fight structure fires with fog nozzles, set on straight stream. I would imagine that a smoothbore would do the same thing. can you send me the reports of the FFs that were killed, where the report stated that their deaths were due to their using the fog nozzles? One argument that I often hear is that fog nozzles provide better protection than smoothbores, can you send me any documentation you have stating the contrary?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    On #2, I would think that two 2" lines from an adequatly supplied standpipe outlet with a wye would give you more water than a 2 1/2. However, I was pointing out operations of a first line off the standpipe and don't think a second line could be stretched by the first company for a combined attack, nor do I think the first line should be delayed awaiting the second line being placed in service.

    Of course a 2" line would provide a better flow and reduce friction loss as opposed to a 1 3/4", but to be honest, we don't use 2" so I couldn't make a statement based on personal experience.

    On question 1. Almost all of the standpipes in our city are wet systems and rarely will you find numerous outlets left open by vandals that haven't been closed as soon as they are discovered by building residents or maitenance. Dry systems could be left open without discovery until after supplied and they would, of course, impact pressure.

    On #3, even though it was directed at FFFred, none of the LODDs in NY were attributed to the use of fog nozzles, because fog wasn't used. I think he was speaking about 1 3/4" line usage. I'm not sure what nozzles or line size was used at Meridian Plaza.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    Lt and Fred,
    1) have you experienced problems where standpipe connections inside the buildling are open when they should be closed? ie, you have a 30 story building, with fire on the 14th floor. and vandals have opened the standpipe connections on floors 7, 12, 28 and 19. how do you overcome this?
    I personally can't remember one where this was the case for me. This usually occurs in Dry pipe systems. The theory being with a dry pipe there is less of a chance of vandalism from turning the valve on...when in fact the valves will often be open because the kids can open them fully and no water comes out and they are left open. This happened to my friends in a former dept of mine. It was a in college highrise dorm. They had to send a few members to shut off the others.

    In buildings of certain hights around here have intermediate shut-off valves dispersed along the riser at certain intervals. One could isolate a large area above the fire floor using the next valve if the open valves were above the fire floor. Other than that...teams need to examine every floor to make sure the vavles are shut it if that appears to be the issue. Very rare, thank god.


    2) my department only uses 2 inch attack hose. their thinking is that you can get almost as much water out of a 2 inch hose as you can a 2 1/2, but the 2 inch hose is easier to manuver. so instead of using a 2 1/2 inch hose, could you use two 2 inch hoses with a gated Y at the standpipe? wouldn't you get more water out of it? we don't actually do this, but i'm just asking.
    2" is obviously better than 1 3/4...you have to ensure that all your stanpipes were designed to allow enough pressure to allow a suitable nozzle pressure at 3 or 4 lengths or whatever is the maximum forseable lengths. As for using a gated Wye...you are effectively burdening your entire operation with one weak point the Wye and hose from the valve. You will need at least one man to make sure the valves aren't shut accidentally in addition to the man who will maintain the control on the standpipe valve. The crowded conditions found in a stairwell are unbelievable and having one more thing to get in the way won't help. Focusing on getting one line in service will most likely be of more of a benefit. And if a backup line is needed for any reason...I would say it should come from its own indepenent source as in the floor below or another outlet on the same floor...this will prevent spagetti and ensure that if one valve or hose fails the other will be operational. Remember you are many floors up and getting additional lines into operation is harder than just walking out to the street and pulling more line off the Engine. This is one reason for as Lt.229 mentioned that when dealing with highrises you plan for the worst and hope for the best...if something goes south...you can't bail out windows and you can't easily put more lines into operation.

    3)Fred, I'm curious. we fight structure fires with fog nozzles, set on straight stream. I would imagine that a smoothbore would do the same thing. can you send me the reports of the FFs that were killed, where the report stated that their deaths were due to their using the fog nozzles? One argument that I often hear is that fog nozzles provide better protection than smoothbores, can you send me any documentation you have stating the contrary?
    The arguments I'm seeing from others on this forum are that the fog offers a "protecive variable stream"...etc. My whole point of the discussion on this topic is that there is NO ADDITONAL protection afforded to the nozzle team when using a fog tip in interior firefighting and especially highrise firefighting. It should be as simple as there are many easily accesible reports that cite FF LODD who were caught in flashovers and are no longer with us. If these fog streams offer some protection why don't we see experienced authorities calling for us to open to full fogs to protect us and help make a push and extinguish the fire? Why didn't their fog nozzles "protect them"? If this is the selling point of fog nozzles then I don't understand how we loose these men when the fog will protect us. There are a number of highrise fires where nozzles and hose combinations made it immpossible to get a fire stream on the fire leading to deaths...I recall some in Pennslyvania, Florida and I think either Tenn. or Kentucky...I' have to do some resarch and get back to you. There are a number of USFA reports on these situations.

    Also one must consider that a fog tip has major weaknesses and faults in regards to standpipe operations. Not the least of which are...can be clogged easily and require manual flushing by changing the stream, Create incredible steam conditons when hitting super heated masonry walls whereas the smoothbores stream breaks up and runs down the wall however the droplets aren't small enough to instantly turn to steam..ending up on the floor instead absorbing heat as they fall. Require higher pressures that are often difficult or imposible to attain off standpipes. Higher pressures create stiff hoses and more nozzle reaction that make it more difficult to move the hose and especially for understaffed depts.

    Of course the argument comes..."we use brand xyz low pressure fog tips". My question why would you spend more money for a higher maintenance nozzle that only attempts to replicate the benefits and features of the smoothbore nozzles. Could it be the nozzle manufautures are trying to encourage some to buy a nozzle which maintains their margins and pays for their engineers and R&D budgets. They see the push to by the cheaper, basic smoothbore nozzles and now are trying to combat this by promoting the idea that their fog offers protection. I suggest you offer to take this salesman into a fire and open up the fog for protection and see what happens. I would be surprised to see him take you up on the offer.

    If there was some protective qualities you think a dept who tried wide scale use of fog tips during some of the busiest years for fire duty would be proclaiming the protective qualities and use them today...we don't.

    Starting out in the fire service I was a member of depts who had minimal experience and taught (or should I say didn't ) poor nozzle disipline. We used fogs almost exlusively. They didn't teach the necessity of keeping the fog nozzle rotated to the right...they sometimes said opening the fog will protect you...etc. When I got to go to some fires...I did some of the things that today are well known no-no's and taught as such at all the major confrences. I opened up to a fog to offer protection against a hot fire...(got blasted with a cloud of scalding hot steam and killed visiblity and the fire kept burning as the fog stream wouldn't penetrate to the seat even after I straightend it. I've been kept from making an advance due to steam production while using a fog stream. While I've personally been the Irons man in the room doing a searches while fires have been knocked down using smoothbores and I wasn't affected the least by any steam production.

    If one wants to argue theory or the recognized texts that there are some excellent articles, disertations...etc. whatever you want to call them out there. Many written by the late Lt. Andy Fredricks (Sq18 RIP) Dave McGrail (DFD) and a number of others. An entire section of Firefighiting Practices and Principals is devoted to comparison of fogs and smoothbores. They offer a well thought out argument and explanation for those who have never had the expereince of using both fog and smoothbores. I'm one who has had what appears to be a rare expereince of using both fogs and smoothbores in real fires over a number of years. And after considering ...experinence from my senior men, my personal experience, experience from my dept, book arguments, and theory(much of the fog theory and argument is based on shipboard FF'ing)...I can't understand why anyone would A: believe there was any additional protection afforded by using a fog stream and B: why more firemen wouldn't want to use smoothbores for interior firefighting.

    If you think myself or anyone else is full of hot air...there are a number of opportunities every year to see for yourself. Take advantage of the Engine Co. Classes at http://fdic06.events.pennnet.com/fl/index.cfmFDIC ... http://firehouseexpo.com/fhe/index.po ... http://www.fdtraining.com/ ... http://www.staylow.com/index.htm ... etc. They are all different however most if not all will show you in a number of different senarios why a certain method is prefered over the other. The info and experience is out there...take advantage of it.

    JMHO.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- Check out this: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/p...ons/tr-082.pdf
    Last edited by FFFRED; 01-30-2006 at 06:18 PM.

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Oakland Fire Department, CA
    Posts
    191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED

    If you don't want to learn from the lessons here...I could give a f*ck less. I don't live in your city and I don't depend on you for my fire protection. But someone out there does and if you take your primary job of being a firefighter seriously you will learn everything you can and use that to make the best judgement...anytime you have the situation described here or the ones encountered by:
    -The Brothers in Starett City, Brooklyn RIP-Lt. Cavalieri, Fr. Bohan and Fr. Bopp-L170.
    -Rockaway Queens last week and in 1996 RIP-Fr. Williams L121.
    I don't think many of you really understand how close we came to loosing some brothers from L-121...Inlcuding as I'm told a Brother who only has TWO weeks in the field.
    -Philladelphia...One Meridian Plaza.
    -Just as E40/L35 mentioned the brothers on the Upper West Side almost became statistics twice within a few years in the late 90's.
    You will realize this IS NOT A F*CKING JOKE!

    We here in the FDNY used to allow the use of 1 3/4 if the officer decided under certain circumstances...however after placing a few brothers in the burn ward and at least a few under 6ft of dirt...we decided to go with what the Engineers and the NFPA always said should be used off a standpipe. Guess what...so did the Denver Fire Department and if my memory serves the Oakland FD. Now however they all require the use of 2 1/2 and smoothbores. What is taught at the major instructor confrences accross this country? Thats right the safety and necessity of larger lines..larger flows and smoothbores.


    FTM-PTB
    You are correct, Oakland went to 2 1/2 and 1 1/8 tips for all high rise, with 1 1 3/4 with 7/8th allowed for mid-rise standpipe ops only in Residential Buildings. We also changed from 1 1/2 lnch cross lays with 100 psi tips to 1 3/4 with 50 psi fogs and/or 7/8th inch smoothbores. Most likely will change to all smoothbores in the near future.

    People fought it and fought it for years, and now that we have changed, people definitely like the difference it makes in the fires.

    As far as the people that argue that Fog protects you?? This is a firefighting urban LEGEND!!! Please tell me how radiant heat is stopped by a fog? And most of all, for our mission, tell me how putting a fan in a open door way with active fire is helpful to the building or for any people inside????....THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH A FOG TIP!!!!


    What always makes me laugh, the same people that quote NFPA for hoods and masks and things of that nature, will argue AGAINST it when it comes to hose line selection and nozzle type!!! Sounds pretty hypocritical to me!

    Remember, fires burn just as hot in New York City as in Oakland or in some rural Arkansas town or farm house in Iowa!!
    -------------------------------------
    "An aggressive interior attack does not mean just going inside to put out a fire. THAT'S just doing our job...."
    IAFF Local 55

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 3 FF's injured in Detroit Tire Fire
    By FireAndy in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-17-2005, 08:37 AM
  2. Blackstone, VA FFs injured
    By NJFFSA16 in forum Fire Wire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-12-2004, 05:48 AM
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-22-2004, 08:18 PM
  4. Tulsa, OK FF's injured
    By NJFFSA16 in forum Fire Wire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-02-2002, 11:03 PM
  5. Wisconsin FF's Injured
    By NJFFSA16 in forum Prayers, Support & Non-LODDs
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-27-2002, 02:20 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts