Thread: SCBA in cabs

  1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Saginaw, Tx
    Posts
    81

    Default SCBA in cabs

    There is a rising tide of talk about removing SCBA's from inside of cabs as a way to improve safety. People from Phoenix and LA already are on the bandwagon. What are your opinions?

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    55

    Default

    I can see the reasoning behind it. Do any of us wear seatbelts on the way to a call when we are trying to put BA on?

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,223

    Default

    Personally - if it really is an issue of people not securing them properly, find a better way to secure them. The current strap system is not the best solution in my opinion, even a mechanical "clamp" that secures the bottle to the seat, released once the truck is stopped, parking brake set, etc. could work. Yes - yet another technical gizmo that can go wrong, I know.

    There are other options out there that could be designed. My biggest concern with taking the SCBAs out of the cab is folks charging in during the heat of the moment because they don't have "time" to don their pack. YES - discipline is a key here, but there are lots of cowboys out there that break or ignore the rules on a lot of things: seatbelt use, masks when they should wear them, etc.

    Again - my opinion is my own - but every solution or alternative hasn't been exhausted in my opinion that we need to take packs out of the cabs. How many deaths can be attributed to SCBAs being projectiles in the cab? Blaming not wearing a seatbelt on SCBA seats is passing the buck.

    Maybe we should mandate that all tankers (fine, tenders) have roll-over protection systems installed in the cabs. I'm sure apparatus manufacturers could find a way to install roll cages in commercial cabs. Isn't that an overwhelming cause for death by fire apparatus along with lack of seatbelt use?

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Penndel, PA
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Just my thoughts, but if this new rule/procedure/guidelineis "passed" it might just be the stupidest and most unpractical thing the NFPA has ever done. I hope that this is just a bad joke that someone made up that has gone too far. Many companies already have ever inch of space filled with something. Instead of trying to ban the packs in the cab they should be looking into making the harness system act as a seatbelt. Just my thoughts.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    100

    Default not such a good idea

    i too hope this is just a joke, because it is not a good idea! are they saying that the ff's aren't seatbelted and that is their issue! i understand the concern but this is not the solution.
    michael umphrey
    captain higgins twp fire/rescue/ems
    roscommon,mi

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    What are your opinions?
    It's a bad idea. It serves no actual useful purpose. It's a lame attempt at correcting another problem (lack of seatbelt use). It's another crazy idea from Brunacini. Might as well take all hoses off hosebeads and put them in compartments too.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    explr985's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    the other end of all that LDH...........
    Posts
    791

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    It's another crazy idea from Brunacini.

    Has he even had a good idea yet?
    No longer an explorer, but I didn't wanna lose my posts.

    IACOJ 2003

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,701

    Default

    Retirement.

    But in all honesty, yes he has.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bookworm
    There is a rising tide of talk about removing SCBA's from inside of cabs as a way to improve safety. People from Phoenix and LA already are on the bandwagon. What are your opinions?
    I know that the LAFD still has 2 or 4 of the SCBAs mounted on brackets on the inside the cab, accessible to the FFs in the rear.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Penndel, PA
    Posts
    40

    Default

    C'mon seriously, if they say that you can't have packs in the cab does this meen that every firefighter is going to start wearing thier seatbelts? No!?! If they don't wear them now there is nothing short of the department mandating that they must be worn, that will make most firefighters put them on.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Puget Sound
    Posts
    130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    It's a bad idea. It serves no actual useful purpose. It's a lame attempt at correcting another problem (lack of seatbelt use). It's another crazy idea from Brunacini. Might as well take all hoses off hosebeads and put them in compartments too.
    Bad idea? Within the past couple of years Phoenix rolled a Bronto and everybody walked away. Why? Because they all had their seatbelts on. Why did they all have their seatbelts on? Because Phoenix holds their people accountable and realized that people weren't belting up when SCBAs were in the cab. So they pulled the BA's from the cab and made seatbelt use mandatory. They saw a problem, fixed it, and it saved lives.

    Funny, I thought keeping firefighters from dying was a good thing. Silly me.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OneL1L
    Bad idea? Within the past couple of years Phoenix rolled a Bronto and everybody walked away. Why? Because they all had their seatbelts on. Why did they all have their seatbelts on? Because Phoenix holds their people accountable and realized that people weren't belting up when SCBAs were in the cab. So they pulled the BA's from the cab and made seatbelt use mandatory. They saw a problem, fixed it, and it saved lives.

    Funny, I thought keeping firefighters from dying was a good thing. Silly me.
    Phoenix holding their people accountable and pulling SCBAs out of the cab have nothing to do with each other. If they truly held people accountable, then the d@mned things would never have had to been pulled from the cabs. C'mon.

    When I sit in the right seat, and I ask if everyone has their belts on - I look and see. If my department held us accountable (which they do, it just hasn't come to anyone doing this yet) - then I can ream the guys that chose not to belt up (they have two choices - belt up or get off the truck), and if I don't insure they're belted - then I'm held accountable. We also do truck walk-arounds before pulling out of the bay now too - and you know what? Putting the fear of God into people really makes them do this stuff. How hard is it for an officer to just realize that he has to face the wife/kids/whatever of his crewmember because he's dead, and all he didn't do was babysit the guy for two seconds and demand the belt be put on. People will start doing it automatically once they know you demand it.

    If everyone is serious about seatbelt use, taking packs out of the cab is not the answer. Our new Spartan coming this summer has seats that will alert us if the position is occupied and the belt is not "buckled." To me - that is proactive, not some kneejerk reaction and yanking packs out of the cab.

    There are better solutions in my opinion than pulling packs out of cabs...

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    Phoenix holding their people accountable and pulling SCBAs out of the cab have nothing to do with each other. If they truly held people accountable, then the d@mned things would never have had to been pulled from the cabs. C'mon.

    When I sit in the right seat, and I ask if everyone has their belts on - I look and see. If my department held us accountable (which they do, it just hasn't come to anyone doing this yet) - then I can ream the guys that chose not to belt up (they have two choices - belt up or get off the truck), and if I don't insure they're belted - then I'm held accountable. We also do truck walk-arounds before pulling out of the bay now too - and you know what? Putting the fear of God into people really makes them do this stuff. How hard is it for an officer to just realize that he has to face the wife/kids/whatever of his crewmember because he's dead, and all he didn't do was babysit the guy for two seconds and demand the belt be put on. People will start doing it automatically once they know you demand it.

    If everyone is serious about seatbelt use, taking packs out of the cab is not the answer. Our new Spartan coming this summer has seats that will alert us if the position is occupied and the belt is not "buckled." To me - that is proactive, not some kneejerk reaction and yanking packs out of the cab.

    There are better solutions in my opinion than pulling packs out of cabs...
    If you don't allow your guys to ride without seatbelts how do they put their air packs on before they get to the scene? If they don't mask up until they are on scene what is wrong with having the BA in lockers? I understand the space issue in lockers but I also am in fovor of not dying in a crash because I wasn't belted in when I was puting my BA on.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    956

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OneL1L
    Bad idea? Within the past couple of years Phoenix rolled a Bronto and everybody walked away. Why? Because they all had their seatbelts on. Why did they all have their seatbelts on? Because Phoenix holds their people accountable and realized that people weren't belting up when SCBAs were in the cab. So they pulled the BA's from the cab and made seatbelt use mandatory. They saw a problem, fixed it, and it saved lives.

    Funny, I thought keeping firefighters from dying was a good thing. Silly me.
    Agreed, we have our SCBA's in the cab, only because we do not have compartment room to place them in there. We are trying to make more and more wear the seatbelts, but it is still a problem. A solution, though a crappy one, would be to place a rear facing camera to see who is, and is not wearing one, then apply your local seatbelt violation fine.

    The other solution is to make sure that your seats are spaced far enough apart that you CAN put them on while wearing all your gear.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,223

    Default

    Volunteer house. People there first get on the rig and strap on packs, put on seatbelt. If you're the last guy there, then either you're water supply, etc. - and you put your pack on once on scene. You can alter your SOGs to work around not putting the pack on for the last guy on the truck...

    We also have the luxury (I suppose) that a pair of engines are fully enclosed, but old enough to only have lap belts in the rear seats. Any seatbelt is better than none, and the lap belts make it much easier to pack up. Heck, you can have the pack on and if the SCBA waist belt is too hard to deal with while wearing the lap belt, you can still step out of the rig and make that last buckle and cinch the straps in a second or two.

    My point is that once I fully believe every solution has been tried to make the seatbelt issue go away, and nothing else out there allows for a safe ride for our folks, fine - then pull out the packs.

    Even something as crazy as making an SCBA and seat that integrates so that once you strap on the pack, you're attached to the rig just like a safety seat. Yes, added expense, etc. - I know. But that way - you could strap on the pack as your setabelt if you're in route to a fire call, or just use a conventional seat belt if you're going to a med run or something like that. I know, the theory may work, but reality says it won't. How many people thought fifty years ago people wouldn't be riding tailboard?

    I don't have all the answers, but I do not believe every solution has been looked at to solve our problem. Do I fault you for wanting to take the packs out of your rigs to save your folks' necks? Not one bit.

    I'm pleased this has been a positive conversation with no flames. They do exist here!!!
    Last edited by npfd801; 01-28-2006 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Can't spell

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,319

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    Volunteer house. People there first get on the rig and strap on packs, put on seatbelt. If you're the last guy there, then either you're water supply, etc. - and you put your pack on once on scene. You can alter your SOGs to work around not putting the pack on for the last guy on the truck...

    We also have the luxury (I suppose) that a pair of engines are fully enclosed, but old enough to only have lap belts in the rear seats. Any seatbelt is better than none, and the lap belts make it much easier to pack up. Heck, you can have the pack on and if the SCBA waist belt is too hard to deal with while wearing the lap belt, you can still step out of the rig and make that last buckle and cinch the straps in a second or two.

    My point is that once I fully believe every solution has been tried to make the seatbelt issue go away, and nothing else out there allows for a safe ride for our folks, fine - then pull out the packs.

    Even something as crazy as making an SCBA and seat that integrates so that once you strap on the pack, you're attached to the rig just like a safety seat. Yes, added expense, etc. - I know. But that way - you could strap on the pack as your setabelt if you're in route to a fire call, or just use a conventional seat belt if you're going to a med run or something like that. I know, the theory may work, but reality says it won't. How many people thought fifty years ago people wouldn't be riding tailboard?

    I don't have all the answers, but I do not believe every solution has been looked at to solve our problem. Do I fault you for wanting to take the packs out of your rigs to save your folks' necks? Not one bit.

    I'm pleased this has been a positive conversation with no flames. They do exist here!!!
    I was thinking the same thing.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    Let me see if I have the basis of this whole topic right.

    1) Firefighters refusing to wear their seatbelts.

    2) The idea that removing SCBA from the cab will automatically make firefighters wear their seatbelts.


    There is an easy solution to number 1. Make seatbelt use mandatory and any violation means a suspension. Period, no appeal. The real question here is what is the officer doing? What is the driver doing? Why can't they check to see if their FF's are belted before the rig moves? Accountability is the key here.

    I would rather have the SCBA in the cab even if the policy was don't mask up en route. It will always be faster to mask up in the cab, even if you have to wait to arrive on scene, than taking it out of a compartment. The new NFPA standard calls for a restraint system for the SCBA so that they are secured in position with a strap or similar device so they can't move from the brackets until the strap is manually released. So the SCBA becoming a missle is not the issue. TRAIN your people that seatbelt use is MANDATORY. ENFORCE the rule by not only punishing the offender, but their officer and driver too. Believe me it will not take more than one or 2 times before it sinks in that the FD is serious about seatbelt use.

    I grow weary of the endless string of "We are so like children that the NFPA must pass a new regulation because Phoenix does it that way regulations." Where is the outcry for this, yet another rule, brought on by officers REFUSING to make their own firefighters follow departmental rules? Maybe the next step is fire apparatus will have child like car seats with shoulder, crotch and waist belts. Heck maybe we should just remove the redlights and sirens and drive like we are going shopping instead of to a live saving emergency.

    Of course safety is important, and regulations that make sense and that are practical will save lives. Silly ones that almost no one sees any point in will do nothing but make violators of the rest of us. How many of you already have seatbelt rules in place in your FD? How many of you have officers that are conscientious enough to check if you are buckled up before the rig moves? Does anyone seriously believe removing SCBA in and of itself will make people wear their seatbelts? I don't.

    Sorry for the rant. Just tired of nonsense.

    FyredUp

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    96

    Default SCBA's In Cab?

    I knowthis thread evokes a lot of comments both ways but I just attended the FDSOA (FD Safety Officer's Assoc) Apparatus Symposium in Orlando last week and we had a great presentation from a lawyer who showed us the stats that more FF died going to/from the call than on the fireground and this is unacceptable.

    He showed dramatic video of slow motion roll-over tests done where the Driver was belted and the Officer wasn't and when the cab rolled over he flew across and took out the Driver (ouch) and in fact forced the Driver out the door window and then he went through the front windshield.. It sure made you think.

    He also showed some videos of the side air bags that certainly help if your belted in and a new feature that is a seat belt tensioner that automatically pulls the person down into the seat which appears to be a good idea but again there is a $ associated to it.

    I totally agree the issue is "enforcement" by the FD and the Officer and we did at one time keep SCBA's in cases in a compartment and I wonder does it really make a difference because I've heard both sides about it gives you time to "size up" before you go in and I'm told that a properly positioned SCBA in a compartment can be donned very quickly. Then we moved them into the cab with the clamp but there were numerous accidents where the unrestrained bottle became a missile. So then we went to the NFPA CRS strap which I agree is ackward but better than nothing. There is also a Zico mechanical release clamp with a pull cord up over the shoulder that is the best so far BUT it's $400 more than the standard bracket sp now comes the issue of cost.

    As with everything in the fire service it sometimes comes down IMHO the person being responsible and being properly seated and belted. That's why we have the NFPA Standard to provide requirements to be followed.

    Don't know all the answers and check out the recent National Fallen Firefighter forum also held in Orlando which talked about safety and responsibility.

    Take Care & Be SMART & SAFE.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    55

    Default

    I like the integrated seat scba idea. You might be on to somthing there.

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    I've been hammering seatbelt use into all our explorers for a year or two now. It's been ignored for 86 years worth of firefighters. I recall only one firefighter telling me to use the seatbelt when I was an explorer many years ago and I was like many other people ... "It's a firetruck, I don't need a seatbelt." My attitude changed when I almost fell out of truck taking a corner and I was apparently leaning on the door handle. Scared the hell out of me looking at the road and wheels moving below me as I was now horizontal hanging onto to the door that swung open.

    Between that and all the senseless death and injury to firefighters from not wearing a seatbelt, I make a point of hammering it into the young people. I figure if I can ingrain it into their minds now, they might have a chance later on when nobody else is enforcing it.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  21. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by explr985
    Has he even had a good idea yet?
    Yeah to retire!!!

    He is a kook and nothing more.

    FTM-PTB

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Yeah to retire!!!

    He is a kook and nothing more.

    FTM-PTB

    Now Fred, as their website says......... be nice!!!!

    http://phoenix.gov/FIRE/

  23. #23
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    Again, why is an internal FAILURE of the Phoenix Fire Department the reason all of us need to be buried under another layer of regulation? If THEY have a problem internally with their people not wearing their seatbelts and their answer, no matter how silly it seems to me, is to remove the SCBA from the cab...then good for them. It begs the question though...as I stated before, does anyone serious believe that simply removing the SCBA from the cab will magically make everyone become a seatbelt wearer? I don't.

    Again, if YOUR FD has a seatbelt SOG/SOP and your officers are not enforcing it whose fault is it? Maybe because I am from small town America and we prefer to look out for ourselves without big brother looking over our shoulders we have learned personal responsibility at a level some south western metro area people haven't.

    Regulations that actually make sense and save lives are good for all of us. Forcing regulation because YOU can't control your firefighters is simply foolish over regulation that serves no one properly.

    Honestly, the safety nazis that see the only answer as regulation are going to over regulate to the point of us all driving up in crash truck apparatus, buckled in and unable to get out because it might be dnagerous, limited to surround and drown tactics. Man am I glad retirement is getting close.

    FyredUp


    FFFRED...While I don't believe all of what Brunacini does makes him a kook, I believe some of the extreme things he does makes him kook capable!!

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    55

    Default

    Why is everyone piling on Phoenix over this while New York and Chicago get a free pass whenever they do anything stupid.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,281

    Default

    lance38...

    Why is everyone piling on Phoenix over this while New York and Chicago get a free pass whenever they do anything stupid.
    Are you kidding me or what? There is a group of people on here that pounce on the FDNY and Chicago FD at the drop of a pin. Obviously you haven't been paying attention to the 3/4 boots in Chicago topic. Or any number of topics where self proclaimed experts have challenged the FDNY guys on here about almost anything they do.

    If you look at Chicago and the FDNY they do not attemp to make the entire fire service do as they do. They do what they do because it works for them. When they learn from a mistake they pass what they learned on so others can learn. They don't attempt to impose their will on the entire fire service.

    FyredUp

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Another for what were they thinking file.
    By stm4710 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 08-15-2005, 07:30 PM
  2. SCBA Brackets and Corn-Binder Cabs
    By jaybird210 in forum Apparatus Innovation
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 11-15-2003, 02:33 PM
  3. Phoenix removes SCBA from cabs?
    By FiremedicMike in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 08-12-2003, 09:08 AM
  4. Civilian Fire Fatalities
    By DCFF in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 02-08-2002, 09:18 AM
  5. Thermal Imaging SOG's
    By wtfd92 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 06-27-2001, 09:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register