1. #1
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    Default Probably the dumbest question I will ever ask

    I know there is a lot of argument over platform v stick, and it seems we all say that each one can be better or worse for a particular situation. My STUPID question is this-
    Is it possible to make a stick that does... both????

    Stick with me here (no pun intended...) If someone were to make an aerial device on a long chassis... and with a ladder that is short when bedded... Couldn't there be a bolt on platform? In otherwords, mechanized so that a few levers would make the aerial raise with OR without the bucket attached? I do not propose an aerial with a bucket on the end, but rather a tower capable of removing the bucket.

    Obviously the purpose of high flow water and full electricity in the bucket would be impossible, but for rescue situations in which the bucket is beneficial?

    Along the same lines, how about a bucket that can slide down the rails of a platform? Imagine being able to keep the ladder up, but bring patients down to the ground? Or having a tower that you can slide the bucket out of the way?

    OK, fully ready for the abuse now. Hopefully this cheers someone up having a rough day!

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    Default Odd units

    I know that Sutphen used to build a 65' mini tower that was interesting. It had buckets on either side of the boom. So - stick off of the end and platforms on the sides. Never seen one other than in pictures. Maybe someone on here has one and can comment??
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    I believe that bucket on a METZ is removable. I am not a big fan of the whole removable bucket idea. I don't kow about your department but I would not want the guys in my firehouse playing around with the thing. The old 'gee I wonder what this does?' Standing a 100' in the air is not the place for the bucket to come loose and maybe falling off. Just my thoughts.

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    Metz. Detachable platform bucket. There are some that have the stick with the elevating platform the raises and lowers on teh topside of the rails. As seen on Outrageous Video shows, many places in Asia utilizes this type. One video is of a bunch of cops going up and the ladder collapsing.

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    Anything on top of a stick that is detachable is something I do not want to be standing on 100' in the air.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    Default ???

    Then why do some morons have bolt on tips on the end of their straight sticks? Seems just as stupid to me.

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    The weight of a bucket vs. that of a tip is a huge difference. The only time you would be on the tip is if you were operating a ladder pipe and I would hope you were locked in with a truck belt. Otherwise it will be over the roof. If you are standing on a platform and that thing falls, you will most likely go with it and better hope no one is standing underneath. Now I may be completely wrong since I have never seen a detachable platform but it is just hard for me to conceive something that heavy and bulky able to detach and reattach easily on a scene and still be safe.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    Default Dbl Bucket Sutphen

    Here is a link to a picture of a double bucket Sutphen. It is in the middle of the page. 65' is short but still very good for what we did when I was a member there. Gosh I miss home.

    http://cnyfiretrucks.com/st/stittville.html
    Fyrtrks

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    Default

    E-One also used to build a unit with two buckets, one each side of the tip of the aerial. I think it was available only in 75'.

    I'll try to find a picture, but they're a pretty rare bird. Don't know if the buckets were removable or not.

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    Fyrtrks pretty nice setup for that dept, thanks for posting, someone mentioned that Sutphen built sticks with pods on ea side but i was never able to find any pics of them.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrtrks
    Here is a link to a picture of a double bucket Sutphen. It is in the middle of the page. 65' is short but still very good for what we did when I was a member there. Gosh I miss home.

    http://cnyfiretrucks.com/st/stittville.html

    Very interesting truck.


    I have never seen anything like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2415
    Then why do some morons have bolt on tips on the end of their straight sticks? Seems just as stupid to me.
    Their there so you can use the tip to vent windows. If you screw it up, you can replace it easier/cheaper. Though it seems no manufacturer actually condones this (warranty nightmare) they accept that we will do it. The key is doing it correctly so as not to torque the stick. Not so stupid, aye?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2415
    Then why do some morons have bolt on tips on the end of their straight sticks? Seems just as stupid to me.
    Well, when we ordered our aerial, the dealer gave the whole department a multiple choice test. Since the entire department scored in the moron range, especially us chiefs, he told us NFPA required that we buy the bolt-on replacable ladder tip.

    If we scored one point lower, we would have had to order left handed spanner wrenches too.
    Last edited by KenNFD1219; 02-02-2006 at 09:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenNFD1219
    Well, when we ordered our aerial, the dealer gave the whole department a multiple choice test. Since the entire department scored in the moran range, especially us chiefs, he told us NFPA required that we buy the bolt-on replacable ladder tip.

    If we scored one point lower, we would have had to order left handed spanner wrenches too.
    Man I love those left handed spanner wrenches. Our ladder came with free blinker fluid.
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    we have a '89 Sutphen 65' very much like the one mentioned earlier. We hate the split bucket. Virtually impossible to do anything while up there. No room to move around. We have since put in service a 100' platform from Smeal and love the room. Plenty of room for 4 guys in gear. http://www.smpffa.com/single_pic.cfm...%2F%20Stations

    http://www.smpffa.com/single_pic.cfm...%2F%20Stations

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    Lightbulb

    I haven not seen the split bucket from Sutphen ............I thought someone was goign to to post the tiller bucket thingy that didnt get very far.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    E-One quit making their version of the "split bucket" platform. I beleive also it was only available in a 75'. To my knowledge less than 12 or 15 were built and delivered to fire departments.

    As for bolt on egress sections on aerials, on some level it makes sense. Hell, to this day FDNY has a department procedure on how to ventilate windows using the aerial tip. Oh well, some makers offer it and some do not.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Jake: We, as morons, actually use the aerials (on our 66 rearmounts and 15 tillers), at FIRES to take windows and to get the roof. While manufacturers will never recommend this procedure, it has been time proven and saves lives. The downside of venting with an aerial is that once in a while the tip gets burned or bent, same for being above a window that's venting fire. Unfortunately that's where the ladder has to be for our safety or to pick off a civilian. A burned tip required the removal of the aerial device by our shops and remounting a rebuilt aerial, a process our shops has down to a science. The cost of having the burned tip, or bent tip inspected and serviced by the manufacturer is in excess of $85,000. A few years ago we morons decided that this was a waste of time and money in many instances, so we went with the bolt on (replaceable) tip concept and it is functionally the same as every other of the 81 aerial ladders in service today, only difference being that the last six feet of the ladder are replaceable (bolt on).
    As for a detachable bucket... buy an aerial or buy a tower ladder, firefighting is about making choices, make one.

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    Thanks for all the great posts! Just a couple of things I picked up on- First, "bolting on" a tower that is not used for waterflow, etc could be plenty safe. Just take a number of BIG, mechanized bolts! How about a collapsing bucket (keep all sarcastic comments aside)
    Second, the gee-wiz firefighter comment- while mainly true- is an issue in everything we use! Heck, that gee-wiz idea is the same reason some people shift into reverse in their cars while driving at a normal-high speed, but reverse exists, and can still be shifted into on the highway! People do lots of stupid stuff and maybe if we stopped doing it, trucks would work better and cheaper without these computerized "stupid person" protections.
    Third, the split bucket is certainly... interesting.
    Last, jfTL I agree sometimes a choice has to be made. Not everyone has m/a available instantly, and now everyone can afford a ladder, let alone a stick and platform. Just like quints don't work for all of us, they do have a niche with many who have to do less with more!

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    I have two customers who have the E-One HP70, it is the split bucket type and only about 7 were ever made. E-One supposedly kept the specs for the truck but said they won't build it again. Both of my customers like the split buckets, they can pull a stokes basket throught the E-One. I don't know anything about the Sutphen model though. If you guys have any questions as to whether platform or stick then view the Channel Two News from Chicago about the fire nearly getting a truckman causing him to bail out and slide down from his stick.I am sure it could be done, any of the manufacturers will do alot of things for a price. As an instructor I must say that is not a stupid question. Be safe .

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    The brother in Chicago did what he had to do. Maybe if that was a TL he might have been in the bucket, but he didn't get jammed up on the roof, it was on the ladder itself so what does the TL have to do with anything? He could just as well have been in the same situation while walking down the Ladder when the bucket stayed at the roof.
    The TL and Aerial both have their place in the fire service, too many deparments are putting all of their hopes in TL's. If I am hanging out a window I want whatever is going to get to me the fastest, and that is an aerial. The set up time and operating speed of today's tower ladders are ridiculously slow, due primarily to NFPA standards. The aerial can be set up and positioned much faster, and when civilians or firefighters are showing at a window speed is most definitly a priority. As always JMHO!

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    The Metz,as pointed out earlier has a removable "bucket".If I remember right it is held on with four big pins.And you won't get them out with the bucket in operation. And the twin gates are set up so you can have kind of a "flow thru" arrangement to evacuate multiple people from a common point(keeping maximum ladder loads in mind).I do not know if the "new" big Metz bucket is removable but I suspect it will be.Outside of the Metz I know of no other ladder sold in the US that does this. T.C.

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    Default Clarify

    I never intended to imply anyone was a moron, I was trying to make a point saying that whats the difference between being in a bolt on platform or a bolt on straight stick. Also the bolt on tip is not NFPA so your salesman lied to you. I also do understand that you use the tip to vent windows, and yes if it is done right it is effective and you wont have to replace the ladder tip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jake2415
    Also the bolt on tip is not NFPA so your salesman lied to you. I also do understand that you use the tip to vent windows, and yes if it is done right it is effective and you wont have to replace the ladder tip.
    No one lied to us and the sales rep did not really give us a test. We specified a replacable tip for easy repairs. Hopefully, the original will still be on the ladder when it goes out of service many years from now. However, we would rather replace the tip should damage occur during a vent than the entire fly section.

    Replacing the tip requires the removal of four bolts and nuts. The new tip is placed on the fly and the nuts tightened to the proper torque. Not hard, but not something you would do on a fire scene. Any system that allowed you to switch from straight ladder to platform would need a simple method to dis-engage the platform and related equipment. Simple disconnect=too much room for error.

    Power venting is not a first choice for us. However, with only 2 fire fighters on the ladder, sometimes it is the best method.
    Last edited by KenNFD1219; 02-06-2006 at 03:20 PM.
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    Jake,
    First we don't talk to salesmen, we specify and they (the manufacturers) either meet our spec or someone else builds the rigs.
    Secondly as far as the NF freakin PA, I believe you should check your info, because bolt on tip sections are being sold by just about every NFPA fearing manufacturer in the US as compliant rigs.

    And as far as the venting windows, no kidding, it's done all the time but every once in a while something gets tweaked or burned, that's the price of doing business.

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