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    Default Ideas of Small Jet Air Plane Fire Attack ?

    Any new ideas out there on tactics for extinguishing these new bigger Corporate Jets that are flying into our smaller airports these days? They carry up to 6500 gallons of Jet-A fuel and can carry up to 20 to 30 passengers. Our engines only carry 40 gallons of class B foam.

    I am just looking for some input to put a class togather that the books don't tell you.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by baker207
    Any new ideas out there on tactics for extinguishing these new bigger Corporate Jets that are flying into our smaller airports these days? They carry up to 6500 gallons of Jet-A fuel and can carry up to 20 to 30 passengers. Our engines only carry 40 gallons of class B foam.

    I am just looking for some input to put a class togather that the books don't tell you.

    Thanks
    Other than having ARFF rigs, mutual aid and on site foam storage is your best bet.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by baker207
    Any new ideas out there on tactics for extinguishing these new bigger Corporate Jets that are flying into our smaller airports these days? They carry up to 6500 gallons of Jet-A fuel and can carry up to 20 to 30 passengers. Our engines only carry 40 gallons of class B foam.

    I am just looking for some input to put a class togather that the books don't tell you.

    Thanks
    What size aircraft are we talking, 20-30 passengers screams 737 Business class to me. I can't think of a single other "corporate" jet that carries that many comfortably, including the biggest Gulfstream built. Well whatever...attack would be the same as you normally would. You will just need to find a solution to your foam issue. The bigger problems your going to see with a larger aircraft entering a smaller airport is brake fires. Most corporate avation is going to a carbon pad and carbon disc. They handle heat VERY well, but can catch fire easily if the pilot is a little overzealous in his stopping. Easiest solution for those is fog stream at a distance to cool them down slowly, you will shatter them if you hit them with straight stream, same goes for water extinguishers too.
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    What is the FAA index number for this airport?

    The airpprt authority cannot arbitrarily allow aircraft to land and depart from there if the firefighting capabilities ( either of the airport or the community) cannot handle them.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-02-2006 at 10:00 AM.
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    I found this on the FAA website...

    What is Part 139 Certification?
    14 CFR Part 139 requires the FAA to issue airport operating certificates to airports that—

    • Serve scheduled and unscheduled air carrier aircraft with more than 30 seats;

    • Server scheduled air carrier operations in aircraft with more than 9 seats but less than 31 seats; and

    • The FAA Administrator requires to have a certificate.

    This Part does not apply to airports at which air carrier passenger operations are conducted only because the airport has been designated as an alternate airport.

    Airport Operating Certificates serve to ensure safety in air transportation. To obtain a certificate, an airport must agree to certain operational and safety standards and provide for such things as firefighting and rescue equipment. These requirements vary depending on the size of the airport and the type of flights available. The regulation, however, does allow the FAA to issue certain exemptions to airports that serve few passengers yearly and for which some requirements might create a financial hardship.

    The indexes can be found in NFPA 403, Chapter 4, table 4.3.1
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Our local airport is planning an expansion but not for passenger service, so far as I know. Is the FAA the only agency with regulatory control over airport fire protection?

    I think we need to be talking to them about fire protection before their bugeting process begins in earnest. (To be perfectly honest, I hadn't really given the airport much thought, but then I'm not the chief.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ullrichk
    Our local airport is planning an expansion but not for passenger service, so far as I know. Is the FAA the only agency with regulatory control over airport fire protection?
    When your talking legal enforcement, yes.

    I think we need to be talking to them about fire protection before their bugeting process begins in earnest. (To be perfectly honest, I hadn't really given the airport much thought, but then I'm not the chief.)
    Remember though, if it's still going to be a FBO airport, meaning privately owned an operated by a company for light aircraft, and small coroporate aircraft, it will probably not be finacially feaseable to provide you with a new Oshkosh ARFF truck, equipment and pay to staff it. Then again, it also does not mean they can't help you cover the cost of some equipment to assist in controlling a fire if they have one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfd4life
    When your talking legal enforcement, yes.

    Remember though, if it's still going to be a FBO airport, meaning privately owned an operated by a company for light aircraft, and small coroporate aircraft, it will probably not be finacially feaseable to provide you with a new Oshkosh ARFF truck, equipment and pay to staff it.
    Agreed, I was thinking along the lines of SEVERAL gallons of foam. Our airport is a municipal (county) operation.

    How does one look up airport specifics on the FAA site? What other info do I need to detrmine which rules apply?
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    baker207...

    I am a former CFR firefighter so let me offer a little advice from that perspective.

    1) The primary job of CFR firefighters is RESCUE. No different from structural firefighters. The major difference is the structure involved in an aircraft fire has a very short life span when exposed to fire. Roughly 90 seconds for burn through on passenger jets.

    2) To effect rescues the technique of rescue paths is used. In my circumstance as a CFR FF on a base with KC-135R's the first in crash rig would establish a rescue path to the cockpit and/or side cargo door. Second arriving rigs would fight the main body of fire.

    Okay now diirectly to your situation. I am not clear as to whether you are inquiring about actual air port responses or if a plane crashes in your community. I am going to make a HUGE assumption that you are asking about a plane crashing in your community. Although these tactics would work either way I suppose.

    1) If it isn't already done I would establish a foam preconnect on your engines. I would make that foam preconnect capable of flowing at least 120 gpm of foam/water mix for a 1 3/4 inch line and 250 for a 2 1/2 inch line.

    2) 40 gallons of foam will not last long so forget about fighting the main body of the fire and go right after rescues using the rescue path method to clear and establish a non-fire involved path to and from the plane. This method doesn't mean foaming the ground like the old runways foamers used to do, it means extiguising and holding back any fire that interferes with that rescue path.

    3) Later arriving rigs may be needed to re-enforce the rescue path or to attack the mainbody of fire. I would strongly suggest that if you have this type of air port problem with no crash trucks that you push hard for a crash truck or a pumper with crash truck like capabilities.

    4) A large foam cache would be a beneficial for actually extinguishing the fire after the rescues have been made.

    5) TIME is of the essence. You have to be ready to act immediately upon arrival at an aircraft incident if you expect to save anyone still in a burning aircraft.


    A crucial safety item that I would feel remiss in not mentioning is "IF" the engines are still running stay away from them. Whether propeller driven, where the danger of being sliced up is there, or jet engine, where the danger of being injested (sucked up into the engine) and then sliced up is there, running engines should be given a wide safety zone.

    If you are dealing with a very few types of aircraft on the airport I would ask and if necessary demand that you be given instruction on how to shut the engines down from inside the cockpit. Generally speaking it is not very complicated and it makes the scene much safer.

    I hope this helped. of course it is brief and direct and there is far more to learn if you are going to do this as a CFR FF.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by ullrichk
    Agreed, I was thinking along the lines of SEVERAL gallons of foam. Our airport is a municipal (county) operation.

    How does one look up airport specifics on the FAA site? What other info do I need to detrmine which rules apply?
    Contact the FAA direct, I don't belive the standards are available online. W also have a county owned airport, but it is operated in conjunction with an FBO. We as a county have a set standard on our response to an incident at the airport, and their has been more than one in the past few years. Aside from one I can think of, none were surviveable. Unless you have a staffed rig avaialble on location, don't expect survivors with these incidents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    baker207...

    I am a former CFR firefighter so let me offer a little advice from that perspective.

    1) The primary job of CFR firefighters is RESCUE. No different from structural firefighters. The major difference is the structure involved in an aircraft fire has a very short life span when exposed to fire. Roughly 90 seconds for burn through on passenger jets.

    2) To effect rescues the technique of rescue paths is used. In my circumstance as a CFR FF on a base with KC-135R's the first in crash rig would establish a rescue path to the cockpit and/or side cargo door. Second arriving rigs would fight the main body of fire.

    Okay now diirectly to your situation. I am not clear as to whether you are inquiring about actual air port responses or if a plane crashes in your community. I am going to make a HUGE assumption that you are asking about a plane crashing in your community. Although these tactics would work either way I suppose.

    1) If it isn't already done I would establish a foam preconnect on your engines. I would make that foam preconnect capable of flowing at least 120 gpm of foam/water mix for a 1 3/4 inch line and 250 for a 2 1/2 inch line.

    2) 40 gallons of foam will not last long so forget about fighting the main body of the fire and go right after rescues using the rescue path method to clear and establish a non-fire involved path to and from the plane. This method doesn't mean foaming the ground like the old runways foamers used to do, it means extiguising and holding back any fire that interferes with that rescue path.

    3) Later arriving rigs may be needed to re-enforce the rescue path or to attack the mainbody of fire. I would strongly suggest that if you have this type of air port problem with no crash trucks that you push hard for a crash truck or a pumper with crash truck like capabilities.

    4) A large foam cache would be a beneficial for actually extinguishing the fire after the rescues have been made.

    5) TIME is of the essence. You have to be ready to act immediately upon arrival at an aircraft incident if you expect to save anyone still in a burning aircraft.


    A crucial safety item that I would feel remiss in not mentioning is "IF" the engines are still running stay away from them. Whether propeller driven, where the danger of being sliced up is there, or jet engine, where the danger of being injested (sucked up into the engine) and then sliced up is there, running engines should be given a wide safety zone.

    If you are dealing with a very few types of aircraft on the airport I would ask and if necessary demand that you be given instruction on how to shut the engines down from inside the cockpit. Generally speaking it is not very complicated and it makes the scene much safer.

    I hope this helped. of course it is brief and direct and there is far more to learn if you are going to do this as a CFR FF.

    FyredUp
    Listen to this man, he knows what he's talking about. I am a former Air Force firefighter with ARFF certs out the butt. Large amounts of foam, AFFF prefered, keep a rescue path clear at all times, and time if VERY crucial. And I would say you need to set up a very clear SOP as to what unit is assigned to what task. Ask your look air base or closest larger commercial airport for a copy of their SOPs.

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    (1) Index A Airports includes aircraft less than 90 feet in length.

    (2) Index B Airports includes aircraft at least 90 feet but less than 126 feet in length

    There has to be five or more daily departures of the AIR CARRIER (in other words commercial) aircraft to become an "Index" required airport. The RJ's are widely used, but again, it has to be commercial in order to be required to adhere to FAA index standards. If 5 or more daily departures exist, then the following is required by FAA.

    The following rescue and firefighting equipment and agents are the minimum required for the Indexes referred to in §139.315:

    (a) Index A: One vehicle carrying at least --

    (1) 500 pounds of sodium-based dry chemical or halon 1211; or

    (2) 450 pounds of potassium-based dry chemical and water with a commensurate quantity of AFFF to total 100 gallons, for simultaneous dry chemical and AFFF foam application.

    (b) Index B: Either of the following:

    (1) One vehicle carrying at least 500 pounds of sodium-based dry chemical or halon 1211, and 1,500 gallons of water, and the commensurate quantity of AFFF for foam production.

    (2) Two vehicles --

    (i) One vehicle carrying the extinguishing agents as specified in paragraph (a)(1) or (2) of this section; and

    (ii) One vehicle carrying an amount of water and the commensurate quantity of AFFF so that the total quantity of water for foam production carried by both vehicles is at least 1,500 gallons


    If you are strictly talking about General aviation airport with no commercial departures or less than five that local paid and/or volunteer FD's respond to, I would recommend following the above guidelines to the best of your ability. Engine companies with quick foam induction systems would be best.

    I work with Nashville Airport DPS, a "C" Index airport. We have enough equipment rated for a "D" Index (1 3000 gal OshKosh TI3000, 1 3000 gal Rosebaeur 6x6 Panther w/Snozzle, and 1 1500 gal Rosenbaeur 4x4 Panther). We also have a RIV F350 with 450 lbs dry chem and 300 gal water/40 gal foam.

    You can find all the info you need on the below link in relation to Index and ARFF requirements. Hope this helps,

    http://www.dot.ca.gov/aeronautics/ht...Sec.%20139.315

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    SgtScott, excellent post, I've been looking for that stuff for a few weeks...I think the problem that rural departments are facing in regards to aviation is that

    1. The Airports are growing faster than the department can keep up with
    2. The funding for protective measures isn't there, or is hard to obtain.
    3. The training isn't available for the local depatments to be able to combat an incident.
    4. The equipment needed to protect a growing airspace will often go purchased, yet unused except for training,here and there, and in the taxpayers eyes..that's a big can of worms.

    We are experiencing a similar problem here, we have a growing airport(ongoing expansion)and I would safely guess to say that before 2012 we will have commercial avaiation. It's currently business and private with about 15-20 departures and arrivals per day..even more so when the weather is nice, and during the two week stint of EAA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    If you are dealing with a very few types of aircraft on the airport I would ask and if necessary demand that you be given instruction on how to shut the engines down from inside the cockpit. Generally speaking it is not very complicated and it makes the scene much safer.
    No offense, but I agree with everything you said except this. While shut down is not complicated, and it does make the scene safer, I would not want a civilian FF w/o ARFF experience inside a crashed aircraft with hot engines for any reason. After all, if the engines are not shut down, there can only be a couple reasons why:

    1. Pilot dead or incapacitated in a serious enough crash that running engines will make the scene unsafe for a FF to enter the cockpit. This is definitely a high risk, low probability job for a city FF.
    2. Pilot took off running-in which case there is no life hazard, so why risk yours?

    I thought this through a few years ago when I was asked to teach my civilian FD some aircraft familiarization due to the nearby ANG base. I quickly realized that, while ARFF trained FFs become very familiar with working around aircraft, your average structural FF wouldn't know intake from exhaust. ARFF FFs do regular, ie monthly, checkouts on all types of aircraft to maintain the required familiarization with each particular bird. Your average city FF knows he will never work a plane crash (already disinterested in the class) and if he does see a crash 5 years from now, won't remember whether it was "throttles, bottles, batteries" or " bottles, props, wheels".

    Although it is near heresy for an ARFF guy to say this, I'd rather see them FOD the engines with water to shut them down than see a minimally trained FF in the cockpit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfd4life
    SgtScott, excellent post, I've been looking for that stuff for a few weeks...I think the problem that rural departments are facing in regards to aviation is that

    1. The Airports are growing faster than the department can keep up with
    2. The funding for protective measures isn't there, or is hard to obtain.
    3. The training isn't available for the local depatments to be able to combat an incident.
    4. The equipment needed to protect a growing airspace will often go purchased, yet unused except for training,here and there, and in the taxpayers eyes..that's a big can of worms.

    We are experiencing a similar problem here, we have a growing airport(ongoing expansion)and I would safely guess to say that before 2012 we will have commercial avaiation. It's currently business and private with about 15-20 departures and arrivals per day..even more so when the weather is nice, and during the two week stint of EAA.
    Yes, many general aviation airports can grow very fast. One of our veterans with 15+ years just retired and is now Chief of Public Safety for a airport 20 min from ours. It used to be a tiny airport with general aviation smaller planes and has grown to house quite a few larger lears jets, Citations, Jetsreams, etc. Not commercial just yet, but large enough to require a full time department of public safety (police, fire, EMS services). A huge step for them. Aside from my full-time job, I also volunteer in the same neighboring county that is 20 min from Nashville. If you're not familiar with Middle TN State University, it has one of the biggest professional pilot programs in the country, so there are many, many trainer aircraft in the area (mainly cessna's). MTSU is located in Rutherford county, and in the 8 yrs I have volunteered up there, I can count at least 5 crashes, all involving fatalities. One particular crash was an expiremental aircraft with 3 souls on board (2 children unfortunately). Volunteer FD's responded. The plane was pretty much a shell, but this incident was totally new to those responding. From what I understand, they did a good job, but it worries me of the lack of trianing structural FD's have (whether paid or volunteer) in aircraft firefighting. Aside from AvGas & Jet-A burning much hotter than most structure fires (and very flammable vapors), it is a pretty serious Hazmat incident because of the exotic metals, fluids, and biological (bodily-fluid) aspects. Not counting the specific extrication procedures of planes versus vehicles. Most people are taught to cut posts to get the roof off of a car, yet cutting the "A" post on most Cessna aircraft will bring you right into the fuel line feeding from the tank in the wing.

    I did put together a training class for general aviation for my volunteer squad, but it has been years since I taught it. Now that I am more familiar with powerpoint, I plan on doing another one to as many agencies as I can in Rutherford County.

    If the airport you mentioned is growing that fast and your agency is one of the primary responders, I would definitely look into federal funding for training and even equipment. It wouldn't hurt to have one or two sets of proximity gear handy.

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    You might want to check out a seminar called "Aviation Firefighting for Structural FF's" that is designed to teach structural FF's the many issues of dealing with planes such as corporate jets (leer jets) that fly through many of our districts. The instructor I believe is a former captain in the NY/NJ Port Authority ARFF division...he runs the online magazine Aviation Fire Journal (www.aviationfirejournal.com) which is who runs these seminars. I know there have been a few here & there in the Northeast (NJ, DE, etc.)...you might be able to find a class coming up or maybe even schedule one through your dept.

    Just my 2 cents...hope it helps...Stay Safe.

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