1. #1
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    Default preconnected rear suction

    Helping put together a new truck, would like info a preconnected rear suction. I know Falon NV runs them but cannot find a good picture. Also if you use them how well do they work?

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    If I remember, they had a preconnected front suction. I have seen rear suctions but haven't seen them for drafting. As we know the side intake is best. A town by us had problems using their front suction because of the length and configuration of the pipe. It trapped too much air. So unless you have a specific operation in mind I might not go with it. If you do get a second drafting pump mounted in the piping. Our newest rig has a front suction primer separate from the main primer, and it makes life a lot easier drafting off of the front.

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    I found Fallon's Engine 2. You can see the preconnected hard line in the left side of the hosebed
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by ADSNWFLD; 02-07-2006 at 11:26 AM.

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    Are you using it for hydrant hook-up or for drafting? That will make a difference.

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    Drafting, yes side drafting is the best, but when you go down a driveway, rear suction is good.

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    Our 2005 Seagrave was spec.'ed and delivered with a 5 inch rear suction. Engineering stated that it would have roughly a 4 psi loss.....which proved very close. Only a slight bend otherwise a straight shot to the pump. Air operated valve. You can get these with secondary primer valves but they are for the most part overkill. We designed ours with a compartment just above the inlet that stores a 10 foot section of 6" hard suction. One of the new Redhead low level strainers that claim 1700 gpm (have not teted this yet though) and you have a setup that gets the tank out of the way - much safer just as it would having it at the front bumper. This has a fraction of the friction loss most front mounted intake have....at least in the majority I have seen.

    And it works as well for hydrants too... just thread the fittings correctly.

    Chief Kuhl

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    Does anyone know what you call that fitting( in red) that Fallon uses to attach the rigid suction to? It can rotate 90 degrees to allow the suction line to be stored on teh hose bed Is there any other options?

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    The rear suction can't be compared to a front suction at all. The fact is a front suction usually involves at least 4-90 degree bends and usualy 4-45's.

    The rear suction can usually be configured to have no more than one 90 degree bend.

    Our new rescue pumper is coming with a rear suction for just the kind of ops sklump is talking about.

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by sklump
    Drafting, yes side drafting is the best, but when you go down a driveway, rear suction is good.
    Well, in that case you aren't really using it for a draft. You are using it as an intake from a pressurized source fed by LDH.

    Both our engines and our tanker have direct tank fills off the back but nothing that goes into the pump. There are obviously intakes on both sides. There's piston relief valves for LDH and those come off for drafting. One of our engines has a front intake that you *can* draft with but there is a lot more loss than the side intakes.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sklump
    Drafting, yes side drafting is the best, but when you go down a driveway, rear suction is good.
    What about a longer pre-connected suction on the side that will reach behind the rig. Since you're on "level" ground the additional length when trying to pull a vacuum should have minimal impact.

    BTW if you do some searching for "squirrel-tail suction" you'll see what I'm talking about.

    Look at some of the rig's here. They have a couple set up with both a rear suction and a squirrel-tail.

    http://www.gotbigwater.com/southlynchesgotit.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire
    Well, in that case you aren't really using it for a draft. You are using it as an intake from a pressurized source fed by LDH.
    Not necessarily - he may be wishing to simply set the drop tank up behind the rig instead of beside it to make it reachable by the tankers due to the narrow driveway and/or to keep it away from the pump operator. Now I agree that depending on the length of the driveway that there may be better options (such as a draft pumper at the road and an LDH supply as you suggest) but that is all dependant on resources available and budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1
    Does anyone know what you call that fitting( in red) that Fallon uses to attach the rigid suction to? It can rotate 90 degrees to allow the suction line to be stored on teh hose bed Is there any other options?
    It's called a Chiksan Swivel (at least that's what I've always seen/heard them called) and it allows 360 degree rotation along 1 axis per swivel. Some side mounts have 2 swivels in one assembly to allow for rotation along 2 Axis (up/Down & Left/Right).

    Edited to fix typos and sentence fragments
    Last edited by N2DFire; 02-08-2006 at 09:29 AM.
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    N2DFire you are correct, in most cases it would be a draft folding tank in the road or in the driveway, along driveway it would be pressurized, but the supply engine would be set up the same way. We have alot of narrow roads so getting in the driveway alows the tankers to get buy on the road.

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    So forget about midship mounted pump and go to rear mount. Put nice short direct suctions on L/R/Rr.

    When operating on a narrow rural gravel road as the supply pumper your portatank is behind the pumper rather than next to it - IE blocking the entire dang road/tankers have to back in. If the pumper is the attack/lays the LDH up the drive/lane to the farmyard then the rear intake is equally as useful/compact/efficient.

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    Default Rear intake

    My department is a 99% rural water supply department. Both of out front line Pierce engines have rear 5" intakes. They have very little friction loss as compaired to a front intake as they are straight into the pump. They are controlled by a Pump panel mounted gate (wheel) valve and equiped with a bleeder. We have had no problems and get capacity at draft. works great for nosing into driveways and gets the intake supply away from the engineer at the panel.

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    Sklump-


    Attached is a picture of our
    2000 Saulsbury, The front suction will also do capacity of the pump( 1500).

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    Sorry, It didn't upload

    I can e-mail you, it is a side mount that will also reach the back.

    35 feet lightweight suction

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    Agree 100% with neiowa, go rear-mount - urban or rural. We have a 3,000gpm rear-mount pumper-tanker on order. We'll have three rear intakes, (1) 8" directly off the pump, (2) 6" with Hale MIVs either side. The 8" will have an 8" manual butterfly valve, an 8" double 45 degree swivel, 30' of 6" flexible suction, and an 8" floating strainer with foot valve.

    As far as the chicksan, you can get the typical 90 like Fallon's from just about any of the 'usual' (Elkhart, etc), but I think the double 45 degree (as mentioned above) will result in lower friction loss and will be more flexible (greater area of rotation, not just one plane). We're having ours custom made by Kochek, along with the suction hose and the strainer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire
    It's called a Chiksan Swivel (at least that's what I've always seen/heard them called)
    Ditto... same here
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    Blitzfire,

    Why a 3,000gpm pump, isnt that kind of overkill?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo
    Agree 100% with neiowa, go rear-mount - urban or rural. We have a 3,000gpm rear-mount pumper-tanker on order. We'll have three rear intakes, (1) 8" directly off the pump, (2) 6" with Hale MIVs either side. The 8" will have an 8" manual butterfly valve, an 8" double 45 degree swivel, 30' of 6" flexible suction, and an 8" floating strainer with foot valve.

    As far as the chicksan, you can get the typical 90 like Fallon's from just about any of the 'usual' (Elkhart, etc), but I think the double 45 degree (as mentioned above) will result in lower friction loss and will be more flexible (greater area of rotation, not just one plane). We're having ours custom made by Kochek, along with the suction hose and the strainer.

    Are you an urban or rural department???? If you are a rural dept......I can't imagine the lineup of tankers that you'd need to keep that 3000 gpm pump flowing at capacity!!! Even if you are an urban or suburban dept w/hydrants....I would still lead to agreeing w/Ledebuhr1 in saying that it's overkill. What kind of structures or industries are you protecting w/that truck???

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    District is rural, grand total of '0' hydrants. We don't need to worry about supplying it, because it IS the supply - and there's no shortage of lakes and ponds to draft from.

    3,000gpm overkill? I don't think so. I think it would be overkill to have two or three lower capacity pumpers at the source for a big fire, each with their own engineers, when we could accomplish the same flow with one vehicle. Back-up supply isn't an issue, because half the engines on scene would double as tankers anyway.

    And regardless of the above: the 3,000gpm is the exact same pump that we would have used if we wanted 1,500, 1,750, or 2,000, so it's not any more money. I don't think that anybody will be complaining about double capacity for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ledebuhr1 View Post
    Does anyone know what you call that fitting( in red) that Fallon uses to attach the rigid suction to? It can rotate 90 degrees to allow the suction line to be stored on teh hose bed Is there any other options?
    There used to be a huge/good site with all the features/info you could want on the Fallon trucks. Anyone have the link?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The rear suction can't be compared to a front suction at all. The fact is a front suction usually involves at least 4-90 degree bends and usualy 4-45's.

    The rear suction can usually be configured to have no more than one 90 degree bend.

    Our new rescue pumper is coming with a rear suction for just the kind of ops sklump is talking about.

    FyredUp
    You are correct. Lots of bends in a front suction means lots of friction loss. It can also get pretty tight trying to locate piping that large around over under the chassis members and engine.

    We began specing rear suctions on all our pumpers in 1985. It sort of made sense to us that since the LDH supply line fed off the rear, why not hook it up there too. I will say that we occasionally have a problem with air-operated remote valves.

    We do not draft at all. In fact, dont even carry hard suction hose. I suppose it depends on your operational preference.

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    Default Swivel

    Where are you guys finding the swivels? Our new pumper/tanker has a rear suction and would love to setup a beaver tail suction. Our local suppliers act like they have never seen one before.

    BTW - we added a 2nd suction so we can prime the rear intake prior to opening up the valve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchkrat View Post
    Where are you guys finding the swivels? Our new pumper/tanker has a rear suction and would love to setup a beaver tail suction. Our local suppliers act like they have never seen one before.

    BTW - we added a 2nd suction so we can prime the rear intake prior to opening up the valve.
    http://www.elkhartbrass.com/catalog/...alog-09-01.pdf

    Terminate the apparatus piping with a 6" 90 degree rigid elbow pointing left or right then add a 348-A. The 348-2A will work on a straight-terminating pipe, but the second swivel will add more potential for leaks, and may be cumbersome to maneuver.

    OR

    http://www.akronbrass.com/uploadedFi...ugs-Elbows.pdf

    Have the manufacturer build in the 650 model. Although it is only 5", I'd be willing to bet that the turning vanes easily make up this difference.

    OR

    http://www.tft.com/newsite/class_cha...AJ8NX-NX&gid=5

    If you don't mind a slight outward arc in the suction at the rear (secure with seatbelt straps), you can use one of these. The angle of the elbow will help with positioning if you are operating off to the side of the apparatus.

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