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    Default For All Of You Ppv Fans Out There

    IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY CHECK OUT THE ARTICLE IN THE FIRE CHIEF MAG THIS PAST MONTH. PPV MYTHS DEBUNKED, IT SURE MAKES A GUY WONDER?
    WWW.FIRECHIEF.COM LATEST ARTICLES

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    ok ok, I will look


    ok I looked, but a quick search yeilded nothing. Could you be more specific to its location ?
    Last edited by pvfire424; 02-07-2006 at 01:59 PM.
    I.A.C.O.J. "The Cork"

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    Menu on the left side, under articles, click tactics i believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jercvfd
    IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY CHECK OUT THE ARTICLE IN THE FIRE CHIEF MAG THIS PAST MONTH. PPV MYTHS DEBUNKED, IT SURE MAKES A GUY WONDER?
    WWW.FIRECHIEF.COM LATEST ARTICLES
    It is written by two guys who have made a decent living pushing this idea accross the country on the seminar circut.

    I read the article and had a good laugh. They came and did a seminar were I previously worked and while many idiot chiefs just beleived what they said as if it came from the mouth of god himself, a few brothers asked a few tough questions and basicly upset their whole operation/presentation. They leave out alot of senarios such as VES(I don't think these salty fellows from Salt Lake even understand VES) or interior unknowns such as controling of all ventilation, Where victims are, Are doors open or closed througout the structure....etc? Just the same I've seen in PPV in action and can say it doesn't work as they portray it.

    They never explain how one can get their tools and this fan to the front door in one trip as they claim there is no delay. Any fireman can see this is BS. Considering most of you guys have everything tied down and placed in compartments I don't see how I wouldn't already be searching while you are just making your way to the house. PS-It does take time to get the fan set...started and in the correct postion due to differences is porches, stairs. doors...hose...etc. It is far from an instant operation.

    When considering they argue that one must ensure that no victims are between the fire and the exhaust point and since we all know it is immpossible to know this unless a full primary search has been conducted why would we ever use this tactic?

    They don't address at what wind speed Mother nature will override and effectively negate the exhaust opening...forcing the air where?

    As compared to normal sound conventional ventilation I've yet to see any claim where this vetilation is supperior to knocking out the windows and conducting VES....A far as I've learned there is little danger from conventional ventilation and by far not as many hazzards as presented by these fellows.

    When we VES...when we place ladders at different windows for egress...shouldn't we remove those windows so if a fireman needs to bail out he isn't having to bash out the windows while he is buring alive? That in my opinion should have already been done but it stands in contrast to the procedures call for by these guys.

    If you think pumping 10,000 CFMs of fresh air into a fire building is a good idea...ask the brothers from the Rockaways who had mother nature doing the exact same thing...ask them if it did or didn't intensify the fire...tell them that it doesn't push fire to other areas.

    I've done both types and the fans should stay on the Truck until the fire is knocked down or under control. JMO.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    I've done both types and the fans should stay on the Truck until the fire is knocked down or under control. JMO.
    Amen brother!!
    "Training doesn't make you a good fireman, fighting fire makes you a good fireman"
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    I am not going to respond in favor or against the tactic. I am not in long enough to make those decisions.

    From what I've heard from those I trust, there are times to use it , and there are times NOT to use it.

    At this point in my career, I do what I'm told.
    I.A.C.O.J. "The Cork"

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    To the right under Cover Story -
    IACOJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvfire424
    ... there are times to use it , and there are times NOT to use it.
    That would be correct.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Just another tool...

    As with any other piece of equipment or technique, PPV is a tool/technique in the ole' toolbox, and never does just one tool fit all jobs. One must know when and where to bring it out, or else you will end up trying to set a screw using a tire tool.








    Does anyone know where we are we going? And why are we in this handbasket?

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    The PPV can be used for ventilation, You and your partner can toss it through the front window

    It is a shame that fire chief publishes such junk.

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    All I can say is it works fine for us. Weve had since it came out, and while I admit it took a while to understand, once we got the hang of its been great. We dont use it before crews go inside, but as soon as possible after. Usually right after the initial report of water on the fire.

    To each his own I guess.
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    I read and copied the Fire Chief article, which was linked in an earlier topic. Had some good points, but also raised some questions.

    Some items found during a search of "horizontal ventilation":

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/mag...le.jsp?id=2007
    "Many times in commercial occupancies, we are limited in our options for effective “below-grade” ventilation. One possible tactic is to cut a hole in a floor above the fire area near a window if it safe to do so. Firefighters performing this tactic should be protected by a charged hoseline. The use of ventilation fans may be helpful with caution. Close observation of the fire conditions should dictate how this tactic is employed. The use of positive-pressure ventilation (PPV) is not advised when there is the possibility of a life hazard in the building. This includes firefighters. When firefighters are properly trained, this tactic may be beneficial once the fire is under control."

    http://cms.firehouse.com/content/art...r.jsp?id=22849

    http://forums.firehouse.com/archive/...p/t-20677.html

    http://www.firehouse.com/training/drills/2000/trk1.html

    http://www.firehouse.com/training/ar...501_smoke.html

    I suppose what really matters is getting the smoke out with the proper method for the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADSNWFLD
    The PPV can be used for ventilation, You and your partner can toss it through the front window

    It is a shame that fire chief publishes such junk.
    LOL!!! That is funny no matter on what side of the fence you are on!

    FTM-PTB

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    We use PPV around here too, useless as it is elsewhere in the country druring attack. I still don't understand what is so hard about horizontal and vertical venting. It does work good for simple smoke removal. The biggest issue I see is that once the fan is placed, the egress/entry points are now obstructed, and aside from the obstruction, once the fan gets knocked sideways, it's useless.
    FF/NREMT-B

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    Like so many other things in the fire service either you love it or you hate it.

    If your FD doesn't use it...super.

    If your FD uses it...super.

    FyredUp

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    Report on Massachusetts LODD Released

    ............

    Courtesy of Sentinel and Enterprise


    LANCASTER -- A state police report details how what seemed to be a manageable fire quickly deteriorated into a tragedy that ended with the death of firefighter Martin H. McNamara V. The report, which the Sentinel & Enterprise obtained through a Freedom of Information request, also shows how McNamara pleaded for help during the November 2003 fire, but repeated attempts to rescue him from the basement failed.

    "It basically got totally dark down there and you could tell it was going to s...," Clinton Deputy Fire Chief John E. McLaughlin said.

    The Fire Investigation Summary Report, which was completed on Dec. 2, 2004, includes statements from numerous area firefighters and residents who lived at the 2 1/2 story apartment house at 76 Mill St., where McNamara died in the basement.

    State Police believe the fire began near or at ceiling level in the basement. An exact point of origin could not be determined.

    "It is further the opinion of investigators the most likely cause of this fire was an unspecified electrical event in the area of origin," according to the report.

    This is what happened on the day of the fire, according to statements included in the report.

    The day of the fire

    Residents awoke soon after 3:30 a.m. to noise and smoke.

    "I heard a noise that sounded like a small backfire or an explosion. It woke me up," said Loraine B. Moeckel, the building's owner. "I looked down and saw smoke coming up from the forced hot-water pipes in the baseboard."

    Moeckel went downstairs and opened the basement door.

    A wave of smoke hit her face before she started waking up the house's tenants and getting them out of the house, according to her statement.

    Lancaster Deputy Fire Chief Sean Ford told McLaughlin to take a line directly into the cellar when he arrived at the fire around 3:45 p.m.

    Ford assumed command after arriving on scene, according to his statement to police.

    "I went down cellar by myself with the thermal imaging camera to see what we had," McLaughlin said. "I went back up to the top of the stairs and made contact with Clinton Firefighter Eddie McNamara ... I told him it didn't look like a big deal and to send the 1.5-inch line down."

    Lancaster Firefighter Steve DiMeco, McNamara and Eddie McNamara brought the line down while Clinton Firefighter Terry Parker stood at the top of the stairs keeping kinks out of the line, according to McLaughlin's statement to police.

    McLaughlin thought the firefighters had the situation under control.

    "Steve and Marty worked the nozzle, passing it back and forth and Eddie helped out with the handling of the line," McLaughlin said. "At some point, I thought we had knocked it down because the smoke started to lift and visibility was coming back."

    Ford, who had been a member of the Lancaster Fire Department for 17 years, sent down Lancaster Fire Capt. Andy Mortimer to see how things were going.

    Mortimer told Ford that McLaughlin said "there was too much (stuff) down there" and to not send anyone else.

    There was still no fire at this point, just a worsening smoke condition, Ford said.

    Starting the fan

    Ford told State Police that McLaughlin told him they had knocked down the fire in the basement and to start the Positive Pressure Ventilation fan at the front door.

    The PPV fan was started and the ladder crew was ordered to start taking out cellar windows, Ford said.

    But the smoke turned charcoal black after firefighters knocked out the windows, which made Ford believe the fire was not "knocked down," according to Ford's statement.

    Ford then ordered firefighters to turn off the PPV fan.

    A separate report, written by the National Institute for Standards and Technology in March 2005, warns that turning on a PPV fan can actually make fire conditions worse.

    Ford saw fire with blue flames coming from the cellar windows, indicating they had a gas-fed fire. Ford called dispatch to have the gas company shut off the gas.

    Getting out of the basement

    McLaughlin's low-air alarm went off, so he attempted to exit the basement.

    "I headed in a direction I thought was where the stairs were, but couldn't find the line. I asked Eddie (McNamara) where the line was and he put my hand on it. I started following it back and made it to where it formed a loop, which I followed," McLaughlin said. "I bumped into Eddie somewhere around this time. The smoke was getting thicker and darker so I told Eddie to dump the cellar."

    Ford then heard that a Clinton crew was exiting with low or no air and "he knew things were going to s...."

    Soon after, he heard over the radio that there were two firefighters missing.

    The whole front hallway filled up with firefighters trying to make their way down to the basement.

    McLaughlin still couldn't find his way out of the smoke-filled basement.

    "I couldn't find the rest of the line," McLaughlin said. "Someone grabbed me as they were going by and pulled me up but I fell back down again."

    "I took the regulator off my face piece and put my face to the ground to get air. I was crawling and trying to find the stairs," McLaughlin said.

    A deputy chief in the basement called a mayday at about 4:07 a.m., the NIOSH report said.

    McLaughlin placed his face near the ground and waited for help.

    Lancaster Firefighter Dale DiMeco went downstairs after being told there were firefighters in the basement and saw McLaughlin at the bottom of the stairs.

    He helped pull McLaughlin to the stairs and out, DiMeco said in his statement.

    Failed rescue attempts

    After McLaughlin was brought out, Ford heard he still had another firefighter missing.

    Eddie McNamara asked who was left in the cellar.

    "I told him it was Steve DiMeco and I though Dale DiMeco was the other guy. I didn't find out it was (Martin McNamara) until a couple of days after when I got off the vent," McLaughlin said.

    Sterling Lt. David Johnson and Sterling firefighter Kevin went back into the house and were told by another firefighter in the hall that there were two more firefighters in the basement and to "hurry up and help them," according to Johnson's statement to State Police.

    Johnson met another firefighter on the basement stairs who said he was out of air and there was still another firefighter in the basement, which was now very hot and filled with smoke.

    Johnson reached the basement floor, and was only able to see blue and red flames rolling and creating thick black smoke.

    He and Grebinar crawled along the hose line searching for McNamara, yelling for him to turn on his Personal Alert Safety System device, but they heard nothing, Johnson told State Police.

    They were unable to find the nozzle of the fire hose, but they came across McNamara attempting to crawl toward Johnson.

    McNamara, who was not wearing a mask, yelled to Johnson to "get him out of here," Johnson said.

    Johnson grabbed McNamara's harness and pulled him back to the bottom of the stairs where Grebinar was, but the two could not move him on their own.

    Johnson called for radio help, but could not remember if anyone answered.

    The basement then became "extremely hot" and the two firefighters had to abandon McNamara, Johnson said.

    Lancaster Deputy Fire Chief Patrick McGloughlin jumped off of the Devens fire engine when he arrived and heard there was a missing firefighter.

    McGloughlin and Devens Firefighter Marc Matthews made it halfway down to the basement before the "all out" was sounded, and they were forced to retreat, as "blue flames started rolling across the ceiling toward them," according to McGloughlin's statement to State Police.

    Matthews could hear a faint PASS device at the bottom of the stairs, but after he turned to tell McGloughlin, blue and orange flames rolled toward them and the "all out" horns sounded and they were forced to leave, according to Matthews statement to State Police.

    McGloughlin saw there was heavy fire on the second floor about five minutes later, which would reignite everytime it was "knocked down."

    Ford ordered an exterior attack in an attempt to protect the side of the building with the staircase where McNamara was, he said.

    Once Keyspan shut the gas down, McGloughlin's team went back into the basement with three other firefighters to find McNamara at the bottom of the stairs, in a foot of water.

    "The basement filled with smoke again fast," and another firefighter pulled McGloughlin out of the basement after they had gotten McNamara halfway up the stairs.

    A second team was able to get McNamara to the top of the stairs before they had to retreat.

    It wasn't until firefighters knocked down most of the fire at around 6:30 a.m. that they were able to retrieve McNamara, according to the NIOSH report.

    The NIOSH report listed smoke and soot inhalation as the cause of death.

    "(Ford) got a report from the entry team and was still in disbelief that they still had a firefighter trapped," the State Police report said. "Upon that confirmation, he turned over command to Chief Alfred LeBlanc from Leominster and Chief David Hurlbut from Sterling."

    "He couldn't think at this point," it states.

    Carl W. Lindley Jr., an attorney for McNamara's widow, Claire McNamara, also asked for and received the State Police report.

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    Default Fire Chief Magazine

    You'll also notice in the following articles of Fire Chief that most of the "you should do this" stuff is written by someone who either came up with the idea, or has ties to the company that sells a product. Hmmmm...There is an article on tillered quints (I'm not going to touch that one). Most of the articles in FC ar turning into a big joke. I guess when it's a free magazine, they can print whatever they want.

    As stated earlier, there isn't any credibility to the article 1) Because these guys are on the Tempest PPA video pushing the product and 2) Because all of the myths that they debunk aren't referenced in any research. I learned in school that if you make a claim, you better at least put a bibliography at the end of the article to back it up. They didn't do that here. @ least Fire Engineering puts references in their journal.

    PPV is ok in an attic fire and balloon construction? According to this article, it's okay to do...but I've seen us burn more roofs off and buildings to the ground because of PPV. The article basically also says that you don't want to use PPV in anything but a "free burning" fire. I don't know about you, but most of my fires are too smoky to be free burning. They only become free burning after we turned the fan on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by phyrngn

    PPV is ok in an attic fire and balloon construction? According to this article, it's okay to do...but I've seen us burn more roofs off and buildings to the ground because of PPV. The article basically also says that you don't want to use PPV in anything but a "free burning" fire. I don't know about you, but most of my fires are too smoky to be free burning. They only become free burning after we turned the fan on!


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    Found this recent link, http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200505.html , here http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=78516 .

    Was PPV fans, their timing and the placement a factor?
    Could there have been better use, or no use of the fan(s)?
    Was their Dept.'s automatic reaction like a lot of others, place a fan in a door?
    Not wanting to armchair, just trying to learn.

    From the report:
    Engine 2 arrived on the scene at approximately 0721 hours and the two fire fighters were requested by the IC to force open the front door. The victim and Fire Fighter #1 continued searching the interior of the tri-level residence for the seat of the fire as the conditions worsened. The IC radioed the interior crew to see if they needed positive pressure ventilation (PPV). The victim replied that he did need ventilation and then radioed the pump operator regarding low water pressure that was quickly restored. The IC had crew members start a PPV fan in the interior door from the garage (Diagram 1). The interior crew was experiencing difficulty managing the charged hoseline while searching between the different levels of the house. They reached the B-side wall of the family room inside the basement, but could not find the fire (Diagram 1). The victim told Fire Fighter #1 the fire wasn’t in the current room and took out his regulator to see if he could distinguish the location and cause of the fire by smell. The victim called the IC to request assistance with the handline at 0723 hours and 23 seconds. The victim made two more transmissions to the IC with the last one stating that “it smells like food burning on the stove” at 0723 hours and 53 seconds. Note: The victim’s radio was no longer operating on the fireground channel. It is unknown how his radio got turned back to the dispatch channel. It is evident during these transmissions that the victim did not have his regulator in and was not on air.

    The victim put his regulator back in and told Fire Fighter #1 to find the kitchen. The victim and Fire Fighter #1 struggled to move the charged hoseline back up the stairs to the main level (Photo 1). They were searching the kitchen area for the fire when Fire Fighter #1’s low air alarm started sounding (Diagram 2). The victim told Fire Fighter #1 to exit through the front door and send someone else in to take his place. Note: The crew from Engine 2 had just opened the front door. Fire Fighter #1 exited and then assisted with replacing the PPV fan with one from Engine 2. The first PPV fan was flooded and running sporadically from its position inside the garage. The replacement PPV fan was operating through the man door on the B-side wall of the garage (see Diagram 1). The IC ordered the windows by the front door to be ventilated to assist with horizontal ventilation.
    Last edited by dadman; 02-08-2006 at 06:09 PM.

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    Don't use it if you don't like it.

    If you think PPV is the only venting that can be done wrong...then you are wrong.

    I am on 2 FD's and I have seen PPV, when used properly be very successful. I have also seen times where people had no clue what they were doing screw things up with it.

    I have seen on more than one occasion guys pop windows before the line was in position and have the fire take off and take control of a structure. I have also seen roof venting done in the wrong place pull fire through a building and make the situation worse.

    Since I have seen both of those methods cause undue damage should we abandon them too?

    It's simple. Use it when appropriate, don't when it's not. TRAINING as always is the KEY.

    This has become nothing more than the stupid "always smoothbore or always fog argument" , "traditional or tupperware helmets", or the even more popular "RED is the only color for firetrucks" debate that has 2 sides proving their side and in the end solving nothing.

    I seriously doubt that either of my FD's will be abandoning PPV anytime soon. Perhaps because we don't use the "It's the only way mentality."

    FyredUp

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    Don't use it if you don't like it.

    If you think PPV is the only venting that can be done wrong...then you are wrong.

    I am on 2 FD's and I have seen PPV, when used properly be very successful. I have also seen times where people had no clue what they were doing screw things up with it.

    I have seen on more than one occasion guys pop windows before the line was in position and have the fire take off and take control of a structure. I have also seen roof venting done in the wrong place pull fire through a building and make the situation worse.

    Since I have seen both of those methods cause undue damage should we abandon them too?

    It's simple. Use it when appropriate, don't when it's not. TRAINING as always is the KEY.

    This has become nothing more than the stupid "always smoothbore or always fog argument" , "traditional or tupperware helmets", or the even more popular "RED is the only color for firetrucks" debate that has 2 sides proving their side and in the end solving nothing.

    I seriously doubt that either of my FD's will be abandoning PPV anytime soon. Perhaps because we don't use the "It's the only way mentality."

    FyredUp
    Well said.

    I am sure that some firefighters hated giving up the "bucket brigade" because the steam driven pumps were unreliable. Some said that SCBA's were for wimps because they have been "smoke eaters" for their entire careers.

    I have seen PPV work great on several occations. I have also other types of ventilation work almost as good. "ANYTHING" done wrong in the fire service can have dire consequences. I do agree that we should not use any equipment that we are not properly trained on. Just my humble opinion!!!

    Take care and stay safe!!
    Just someone trying to help! (And by the way....Thanks for YOUR help!)

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    I have stayed out of the PPV debate for as long as I could. Reading each post about how terrible of a tool it is, I would bite my tongue (or fingers, as the case may be ) and keep from entering this debate mostly for fear of having to type a whole lot.

    We have used PPV since long before I started with my dept. some 15+ years ago. We use it at virtually EVERY structure fire, and it is GREAT!

    We know how it works, why it works and what it will do. We train with it, we use it and we love it!

    I feel sorry for departments that are afraid of it either because of ignorance, or because they have seen it misused by someone else that was ignorant.

    When used properly, which by the way is easy to learn, it saves firefighters and victims from taking unnecessary beatings from heat and smoke, and it greatly improves firefighting efforts and allows for quicker extinguishment, better search conditions and a much faster return to more tenable conditions for all involved.

    Now, for all you who will never agree with its use...Flame away! (pun intended)




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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949
    I have stayed out of the PPV debate for as long as I could. Reading each post about how terrible of a tool it is, I would bite my tongue (or fingers, as the case may be ) and keep from entering this debate mostly for fear of having to type a whole lot.

    We have used PPV since long before I started with my dept. some 15+ years ago. We use it at virtually EVERY structure fire, and it is GREAT!

    We know how it works, why it works and what it will do. We train with it, we use it and we love it!

    I feel sorry for departments that are afraid of it either because of ignorance, or because they have seen it misused by someone else that was ignorant.

    When used properly, which by the way is easy to learn, it saves firefighters and victims from taking unnecessary beatings from heat and smoke, and it greatly improves firefighting efforts and allows for quicker extinguishment, better search conditions and a much faster return to more tenable conditions for all involved.

    Now, for all you who will never agree with its use...Flame away! (pun intended)




    Kevin

    Ditto, ditto, ditto!!
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    This has become nothing more than the stupid "always smoothbore or always fog argument" , "traditional or tupperware helmets", or the even more popular "RED is the only color for firetrucks" debate that has 2 sides proving their side and in the end solving nothing.
    RED IS the only color for firetrucks!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949

    We know how it works, why it works and what it will do. We train with it, we use it and we love it!

    I feel sorry for departments that are afraid of it either because of ignorance, or because they have seen it misused by someone else that was ignorant.
    Kevin...I am glad it work for you guys, but for other it doesn't. And not because they are afraid or ignorant.....they are the ones who know thier area and buildings. Like my brothers from FDNY said....for us....no matter how great they are for you, here they would kill us and burn buildings down. For instance......in Brooklyn, they have entire city blocks of what are called Rowframe houses....that average 2-4 stories of wood frames that are connected....it is common for them to have 20 units on one street on both sides.....the biggest common feature is the open common cockloft that runs the entire span of the street. If you were to introduce 10000 sq feet per minute of fresh air.....you would level the block in minutes....no matter how you use it. Example #2.....were I am in the Bronx...we have many high rise gov't subsidied fireproof residential buildings (Projects)....that avg 14 stories. These are extreamly scarry buildings to fight fires in...basically they are like fighting fire in an brick pizza oven....and Ventilation is done extreamly carefully.....1 open window...and open fire apt door can incinerate a hallway in seconds...you will get a 100 foot wall of fire that two 2.5" lines would have trouble holding. Again....introduction of fresh air is bad. Just ask my brothers in Rockaway, Queens. Also in my area, and many throughout the city...we have Non Fire proof 5,7,and 7 story "H" types....that are LOADED with voids.....introduction of fresh air is bad here to. Here is an idea....one of my first fires in NYC was in one of these types of buildings.....fire was in 1 apt on the third floor, a gas line was broken in wall as well (we didn't know this at the time)....it filled every void all the way to the roof, through something called a channel box and the old dumbwaiter shaft.....we put the fire out w/ no problem....a truck company was opening the ceilings in the fire apt....embers got into the space....ignigted the gas and blew the ceiling down on the top floor, and lifter the roofmen atleast a foot into the air knocking them down. The point here is....voids....Another example would be the 6th Alarm the other day in the Bronx.....fire got into the old dumbwaiter....and before they knew it....fire was blowing out of 4 floors.

    People should have tools that serve them the best and that fit there style of Firefighting. PPV work for you, great.....it will kill us, not so great.

    Stay Safe...

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