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  1. #21

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    where can i see the federal guidelines for roadway operations. we are having problems between police and fire


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MutualAidSupply View Post
    All I see in Ch6I is "If manual traffic control is needed, it should be provided by qualified flaggers or uniformed law enforcement Officers"

    Can you tell me which chapter you see that the FD has authority to direct traffic & shut down roads please? I hope they are not referring to us as flaggers, lol
    Sorry for the 4 month delay replying, I don't keep and eye on this forum as much as I used to.

    Anyway, you're in the right area, Chapter 6I. One thing about the MUTCD is that they constantly change it; if I cite something today, in a couple of months it's likely to change!

    Anyway, let me see if I can get you what you're after.
    Quote Originally Posted by MUTCD, Section 6I.01
    While some traffic incidents might be anticipated and planned for, emergencies and disasters might pose more severe and unpredictable problems. The ability to quickly install proper temporary traffic controls might greatly reduce the effects of an incident, such as secondary crashes or excessive traffic delays. An essential part of fire, rescue, spill clean-up, highway agency, and enforcement activities is the proper control of road users through the traffic incident management area in order to protect responders, victims, and other personnel at the site while providing reasonably safe traffic flow.
    Also...
    Quote Originally Posted by MUTCD
    A traffic incident management area is an area of a highway where temporary traffic controls are imposed by authorized officials in response to a road user incident, natural disaster, hazardous material spill, or other unplanned incident.
    The fire department is included in the "authorized officials" category.

    Let me know if that's not what you're after.

  3. #23
    Forum Member AFD319's Avatar
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    Default Here

    The Fire and EMS get dispatched then the police get notified.
    As far as the road closing if our chief says **** the road down it gets shut down regardless of whet the police say
    FIREFIGHTER/DISPATCHER

  4. #24
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    Calls are initially routed to the local PD the forwarded to the FD dispatch center (soon to be all the same location). As for blocking Illinois just passed a law providing the FD the same authority to close lanes/roads to protect personnel (one caveat, the Tollway Authority does not apply). However usually so long as everything is reasonable and you try to find common ground there is usually not a problem (don't abuse the time).

    Prior to the law I had no hesitation to block lanes and the expressways to protect personnel and would open as soon as safely possible. Occasionally the troopers and minuteman (state roadside motorist assistants) would get a little miffed but they never went too far. They key is good communication and being reasonable.

  5. #25
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    Hatchmaster - Are you on runway 27R or 9L? J/K.

  6. #26
    Forum Member Firefighter2160's Avatar
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    Used to be we could not lcose highways or interstate, but a law called Shib's law here in illinois passed both the house and the senate, I have not seen heard for sue if the GOV. has signed it in to law yet but i am sure it will be.

    this was dedicated to a Sesser Illinois fire fighter killed on I-57. just do a google search on Shib's law for more info on it

  7. #27
    Forum Member RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter2160 View Post
    Used to be we could not lcose highways or interstate, but a law called Shib's law here in illinois passed both the house and the senate, I have not seen heard for sue if the GOV. has signed it in to law yet but i am sure it will be.

    this was dedicated to a Sesser Illinois fire fighter killed on I-57. just do a google search on Shib's law for more info on it
    They don't even have to go that far ... here's the link to Laura's thread.

    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...t=Shib%27s+Law
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  8. #28
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    Here in Alberta any highway outside the municipal boundry is the RCMP's jurisdiction. The have the right to close the road, what they really need to do is notifiy the Provincial Minister of Transportation and ask for permission. Not that the Minister is ever going to say no, you still need permission. The police still go ahead and shut the road down before they get permission, if it's a safety issue. The police are usually there and we just ask them to close the road and they never have a problem doing this for us. But if it's a safety issue, I'd shut the road down before the police arrived on scene.



    Mike

  9. #29
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    I have not been issued a shiny whistle, pretty white or lime green gloves, or a flashlight with the "light saber" orange covers on them so directing traffic is not my bag baby. What I have been issued is an apparatus with a lot of lights. We simply block what needs to be blocked and PD is usually not far behind (if they are not there already) and they help with traffic flow. It is amazing how quickly law enforcement comes running when you tell dispatch you have completely blocked the interstate.

    Cop teasing aside, if both agencies recognize that each has a job to do it's pretty easy to come to a common ground. It is very common for us to block whatever we need to keep the area safe and PD makes what we've left work. When things stabilize they'll ask us to move a rig or two to help traffic move a little better and we do our best to help out.

    The vast majority of problems I've either seen or heard about involve one of the two "sides" deciding they're the supreme commander and ruler of all they survey and throw their weight around just so they can brag to their buddies over coffee at shift change.
    I may speak gibberish, but I don't talk s***! -- Dropkick Murphys

  10. #30
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    Default Kansas

    In Kansas - Fire dept is only authorized by KS law to shut down roads and highways for FIRE's only. A bill was introduced this year in response to a few firefighters ending up with chrome bracelets in other states - changing the wording from "fire" to "emergency". Bill stalled in committee - working to build support for it to move out of committee next year.

  11. #31
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    Out here in Harris County, we do shut down roadways for MVA's. We have even gone so far as to shut down Interstate 10 when needed. We have an excellent working relationship with HCSO, DPS, and when needed, HPD. Our Chief has actually yelled at people attempting to drive through a scene. Also, when people get impatiant(sp?) all we have to do is notify the LEO on scene. They get taken care of REALLY quickly. I'd say though, 99% of it has to do with having a good relationship with the LEO's in your area, and avoiding any and all ****ing matches. Everyone loses in those situations.

  12. #32
    Forum Member PhillyRube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fokker416 View Post
    I have not been issued a shiny whistle, pretty white or lime green gloves, or a flashlight with the "light saber" orange covers on them so directing traffic is not my bag baby. What I have been issued is an apparatus with a lot of lights. We simply block what needs to be blocked and PD is usually not far behind (if they are not there already) and they help with traffic flow. It is amazing how quickly law enforcement comes running when you tell dispatch you have completely blocked the interstate.
    .
    Ah yes, the 20 ton traffic cone manned by the yellow canaries.

    Not fire bashing, being one myself. We have no arguments with FD closing an additional lane as necessary. Most of the time we already shut those lanes, and use the apparatus as the blocker. As far as my PD guys are concerned, the scene is Fire and EMS property until the patient care is done, the patient transported, and the vehicle made safe. Don't really care what the public thinks about it.

  13. #33
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    Talking

    We have an extremely good relationship with the city PD. They show up on pretty much any call that is outside, and any call that is in the lower end neighborhoods. At MVAs they will sometimes begin traffic control on their own even if we don't ask for it, even if we aren't blocking lanes. It helps slow down the drivers and keep us safer. Also, most times when we have an aid call, even if we don't need PD atleast one officer will be nearby, driving around the streets very close to us. In return for all they do for us, we leave the TV plugged in at the unmanned station along with 2 recliners for when they have a slow night . oh, and we have plenty of ice cream to share.

  14. #34
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    Post Well....................

    Quote Originally Posted by cherylew1 View Post
    I just have 2 questions.
    1) Does a Police Chief have the authority to tell the Fire Chief that calls are to go to the police dept and respond before the fire dept.?
    2) Does the Fire dept. have the authority to close a road down and/or detour traffic from a scene?
    My family has been in the fire service for over 30 years and I have never heard of a police chief doing this before, so I am just wondering what you all think. FYI he is in the state of Maine.

    I'm in Maryland. The Answers to your Questions, as they apply here are:

    1. - No.

    2. - Yes.

    Police Chiefs here have nothing to do with Dispatch operations. And Fire Chiefs don't either. Emergency Calls go to the 911 Answering/Emergency Dispatch Center in each County. The Dispatch Center handles the call, sending Police to Crimes and Fire/Rescue to Fires and EMS Calls. Police units only go to Fires at the request of the Fire Department.

    Traffic is usually controlled by placing a couple of Big Red Trucks across the road, which caiuses traffic to stop. We usually don't bother with directing traffic, most people can find their way home. The Cops normally don't do traffic either, they're too busy with important stuff.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherylew1 View Post
    I just have 2 questions.
    1) Does a Police Chief have the authority to tell the Fire Chief that calls are to go to the police dept and respond before the fire dept.?
    2) Does the Fire dept. have the authority to close a road down and/or detour traffic from a scene?
    My family has been in the fire service for over 30 years and I have never heard of a police chief doing this before, so I am just wondering what you all think. FYI he is in the state of Maine.
    Although this is a few years old: I'm in Maine and the answer is the same as HWOODS:

    1) No.
    2) Yes

  16. #36
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    Default State of Georgia Law

    Georgia state law title 25 governs the fire department. Under title 25 there is a section concerning the "Emergency Powers of the Fire Department".
    In an emergency the fire department becomes the most powerful agency in the state. Now getting law enforcement to do what you need at a fire scene varies. Some officers will help you do anything and others won't.

    Here are some examples of the emergency powers:

    1. Close any road.
    (We battle with state DOT and state police sometimes over this one. They want us to call and asked there permission to close the interstate. I never take time to call the state capitol first. State law is on our side. We always come out on top when the dust clears.)

    2. Demolish buildings or property, with explosives if needed.
    (We use this most often to establish fire lines on private property.)

    3. Condemn property/buildings
    (Most commonly used after a structure fire when the building is unsafe to occupy)

    4. Order mandatory evacuations
    (Used in hazmat incident, exposure properties during structure/wildland fires)

    5. Enter any property
    (Every fire department has this authority)

    6. Seize property
    (Most commonly used when we are drafting from private ponds)

    When fire is cried and danger is neigh,
    "God and the firemen" is the people's cry;
    But when 'tis out and all things righted,
    God is forgotten and the firemen slighted.
    ~Author unknown, from The Fireman's Journal, 18 Oct 1879

  17. #37

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    well gang, precedent is set, and it benefits the fire guys.

    In LA a policeman arrested a fire captain for shutting down an additional lane of traffic on an MVA scene. It was caught on the cruiser dash-cam and made headlines. the cop lost the court case and had to pay the fire capt $18,000. he also probably lost his job. what a bonehead thing to do, i guess the cop wanted to play fire captain that day. this was a multi lane interstate, BTW, not a two-laner.

    I tell my guys; "if in doubt, shut it down".

    the LEO's can watch passing cars and swivel their heads all day, but FFs work at the scene without being able to look over their shoulder. So screw 'em, screw the rest of the world, shut it down. make everybody late, make the cops do extra paperwork and call in overtime people to man road blocks. F**k-em, let them wait in their cars and stew.

    p*ss off the cops that enjoy dodging unguided missles and yelling at drivers that rubberneck.

    BTW if the lane is closed, there's no rubbernecking.

  18. #38
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    Nothing stops traffic like a 48' aerial sitting across the highway! Seriously, the township pd in our area doesn't want to do traffic so we have free reign to do what we want. Our fire police are very good at keeping people notified downward from the accident, plus the placement of the rigs across multiple lanes does well. Our main thoroughfare (SR20) is a 4 lane state highway with center turn, so we're working on a big road a lot of the time.
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  19. #39
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  20. #40

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    This might be what your looking for.

    http://www.officer.com/web/online/On-the-Street/Police-VS-Fire/21$43442

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