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  1. #1
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    Default New Apparatus Questions

    A few questions...

    I'm looking for feedback about "stock" apparatus that you can purchase from manufacturers. By this I mean apparatus such as Pierce Contendor, E-One Tradition Series Etc. Any expierences with these programs? Any other manufacturers out there doing this type of program?

    How about four wheel drive class A pumpers on custom chassis. Do you use them as a front line unit? IF so, how do they handle? Are there additional maintenance considerations for a 4x4 rig during the rest of the year (not winter) as far as wear and tear that you wouldnt expierence with a 2wd rig? In the mid-atlantic states, any feedback from companies using four wheel drive engines with custom cabs? Who makes custom cab four wheel drive engines besides pierce and E-one? How much additional money are you talking by going to four wheel drive? Would you buy a custom cab or commercial cab with a four wheel drive class A engine (needs to seat 6 FF's)?

    Does anyone have access to online info for Washington DC apparatus and other meter DC area style engines with low hosebeds and creative bumper attack line configurations? Looking for pics and Specs.

    Thank you in advance.


  2. #2
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    A few questions...

    I'm looking for feedback about "stock" apparatus that you can purchase from manufacturers. By this I mean apparatus such as Pierce Contendor, E-One Tradition Series Etc. Any expierences with these programs? Any other manufacturers out there doing this type of program?

    How about four wheel drive class A pumpers on custom chassis. Do you use them as a front line unit? IF so, how do they handle? Are there additional maintenance considerations for a 4x4 rig during the rest of the year (not winter) as far as wear and tear that you wouldnt expierence with a 2wd rig? In the mid-atlantic states, any feedback from companies using four wheel drive engines with custom cabs? Who makes custom cab four wheel drive engines besides pierce and E-one? How much additional money are you talking by going to four wheel drive? Would you buy a custom cab or commercial cab with a four wheel drive class A engine (needs to seat 6 FF's)?

    Does anyone have access to online info for Washington DC apparatus and other meter DC area style engines with low hosebeds and creative bumper attack line configurations? Looking for pics and Specs.

    Thank you in advance.
    We have a new 2005 Kme Excel chassis ( Extreme Series ) custom pumper that is two wheel drive and cost us $ 270,000 without Equipment, It was purchased threw the " J.B.Hunt Co. " from Trenton, N.J. It has the following : 1500 gpm Q-Max pump , Cummins 400 HP, 3000 EVS trans, stainless steel body, 8K Onan gen ,front suction & trash line , Q2 siren, pro foam ,deck gun, led lighting, raised roof,6-man cab, roll up doors,aluminum wheels,air cond.

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber npfd801's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    A few questions...

    I'm looking for feedback about "stock" apparatus that you can purchase from manufacturers. By this I mean apparatus such as Pierce Contendor, E-One Tradition Series Etc. Any expierences with these programs? Any other manufacturers out there doing this type of program?
    Just about everyone makes a stock or program unit. Off hand, I can say E-One, Pierce, ALF, Rosenbauer, Alexis, Smeal. Probably more that I neglected to mention. Essentially, these are nothing more than pre-engineered, limited option rigs that cut down on the costs of engineering and design. The builders aren't trying to figure out how to better a better mousetrap with each rig, so the cost is much less.

    Some folks out there will bash the program rigs for one reason or another, but there are lots of departments out there that run these rigs day in and day out (probably not a big city) and do fine with them. Think that you're looking at a Chevy and not a Cadillac, and you'll be fine.

    While we don't run program built units, the demos that have visited the station and that I have climbed over at trade shows don't look bad to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    How about four wheel drive class A pumpers on custom chassis. Do you use them as a front line unit? IF so, how do they handle? Are there additional maintenance considerations for a 4x4 rig during the rest of the year (not winter) as far as wear and tear that you wouldnt expierence with a 2wd rig? In the mid-atlantic states, any feedback from companies using four wheel drive engines with custom cabs? Who makes custom cab four wheel drive engines besides pierce and E-one? How much additional money are you talking by going to four wheel drive? Would you buy a custom cab or commercial cab with a four wheel drive class A engine (needs to seat 6 FF's)?
    We have a front line, 4x4 commercial chassis class A pumper. So far, we love it. Judging by the requirements for maintenance - things don't look too much worse than a normal engine, but our department does a great job of staying on top of preventative maintenance, so it really doesn't effect anyone on the firefighting side. Our rig, while taller, handles very well. Obviously, the ride is rougher, the cab is quite a bit higher, and you aren't going to drive it at Mach 2 around corners, but our other engines really don't corner any worse or better.

    Custom cab 4x4 units are built by Pierce, E-One, KME, Spartan, HME. We opted for the IH chassis sumply due to budget issues, and we can only seat five, so perhaps a custom is the only way to go for you. I think we were between $20,000 and $30,000 extra to add the 4x4 option to the rig, if I recall correctly.

    One thing to consider, if you want the 4x4 for wintry travel and not for off-road use is Spartan's low-pro 4wd rig. You get the benefits of 4wd without the excessive chassis height. I think the low-pro 4wd chassis is only a few inches higher off the ground than their 2wd stuff.

    Don't have anything to offer you on the DC area stuff, sorry.

  4. #4
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    Default 4x4 in Alaska

    I know there are a couple of departments that run 4x4 up here. Our rescue/ pumper is a KME 4x4.
    Juneau "Capital City" Fire and Rescue just got a pair of 4x4 KMEs, Excels w/ cafs, pretty loaded up.

    KMEs New Deliveries

    Yeah they are a little high when you run to grab a preconnect, but everything around here is 4x4 (even the fuel trucks) so you live with it.
    The compartments are not all that much higher than 4x2, only if you run a highside rescue/pumper.
    Just remember if it is sheet ice, the chained up 4x2 will go, the 4x4 may try (the wheels on the truck go 'round and round, round and... ) Auto chains are great!
    Overall, we are very happy with ours.

    Y'all be careful

  5. #5
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    Default

    Pikes Peak Community College in Colorado Springs purchased a stock Central States (Rosenbauer) pumper for the Firefighter I program. It is a four-door IH with SCBA seats, A/C,/ 1250 pump, 500 water tank and a low hose bed. It is not fancy at all, but it works just like a $300,000 pumper once we set the air brakes. It cost about $136,000. The pictures are too big to attach, but I can send them to a e-mail address if you want them.

  6. #6
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    Default base standard rigs

    You can buy a $20,000 basic pickup truck or you can load it up with every bell and whistle known to man for $40,000. Then you can go out and get it customized for another $3,000 to $30,000 dollars. But the base $20,000 unit still does the job. It just might not look as good or ride as comfy as the $40,000 version.

    Same analogy for a stock or program pumper unit. The basic truck does the job for a reasonable price. More power to the departments that can afford all the bells and whistles and even more so the expensive "customized" rigs.

    The manufactuers tell me the program trucks are more reliable with less problems because they are repeatable builds that are familiar to the workers, not everyone a one off custom.

    MHO is that a program truck would do a fine job for the vast majority of the departments out there.

  7. #7
    MembersZone Subscriber BVFD1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat
    You can buy a $20,000 basic pickup truck or you can load it up with every bell and whistle known to man for $40,000. Then you can go out and get it customized for another $3,000 to $30,000 dollars. But the base $20,000 unit still does the job. It just might not look as good or ride as comfy as the $40,000 version.
    So you are saying a basic half ton pickup will pull a 15,000# boat? Sweet, that will save everyone who is buying one ton diesels a lot of money!

    The fact is that a basic model (half ton work truck) cannot do the work of a truck with more features (one ton, dually, diesel, 4x4, etc.) and the same thing goes for fire apparatus.
    FTM - PTB

  8. #8
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    Default

    Your 1-ton dually diesel can be had in a work truck configuration, vinyl seats, etc. for a lot less than a Buckaroo edition model with leather seats, DVD player, chrome stacks and steer horns on the hood. I'd bet both would pull the same said trailer.

  9. #9
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    There are many options available on program trucks (pre-engineered trucks), including different and more powerful engines. Special options and crazy requests on fire trucks take a lot of research and engineering to make the requests work on a truck. Therefore, you pay a hefty price for them.

    There are usually quite a few options available. These options are things that manufacturers do everyday and don't require additional engineering, hence the cost savings. There are also your standard items that are the same on most program trucks, for example roll up doors. Because the manufacturer is using the same size and dimension roll up door on all the program trucks, they can buy them in bulk giving them a substantial discount. All or part of the cost savings of buying in bulk can then be passed along to the end user.

    Additionally, program trucks use less labor hours. Everyone knows that the first time you do something it might take you a little while. The second time you can pick-up on a few things and streamline the process saving manufacturing time and labor hours. The process becomes more streamlined every time you do it until you have the process almost perfected. Therefore additional labor savings are passed along to the end user.

    There is really nothing different from program truck to "custom" built truck in terms of quality. The same processes and materials are used on both of them. To call them junk or cheap just isn't fair because that is not the case. You are limited in options on a program truck, but for some departments they can still get the exact truck they want with the options that are available to them. On top of that, they can usually get there truck quicker because manufacturers sometimes stock chassis and all the components.

    I'll be the first to admit that program/pre-engineered trucks aren't for everyone, but they are for someone. Most departments should at least consider them before they rule them out altogether. If it won't work for your department, it's as easy as moving on to a custom built truck.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber BVFD1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801
    Your 1-ton dually diesel can be had in a work truck configuration, vinyl seats, etc. for a lot less than a Buckaroo edition model with leather seats, DVD player, chrome stacks and steer horns on the hood. I'd bet both would pull the same said trailer.
    Yep, but the BASIC model has a gas v8.

    Besides, you said $20,000 basic pickup truck. Last time I checked a one ton dually work truck with a diesel was nowhere close to that price. What is close to that price? A basic half ton.
    FTM - PTB

  11. #11
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    I didn't post the original argument over the $20K pickup. While the numbers is the original post may have been flawed, the general idea isn't.

    With a few exceptions, the program apparatus are built on the same line as the custom stuff. I could see having issues with buying a program rig that is built by different people at a different plant than where the regular stuff is built, but when the same folks are building the rig, using the same materials, there is nothing wrong with using a program apparatus if it fits your needs.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber BVFD1983's Avatar
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    Some manufacturers have facilities devoted to program trucks and nothing else.
    FTM - PTB

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    My FD just took delvery a demo aerial unit from E-One, After the whole spec and design process it was essentially what we needed, As mentioned before it does allow you to take delivery of put into service more sooner than if the truck were being built from the ground up

  14. #14
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    Just to clarify this, a Program Truck is made to order. They are not demo units that are pre-built. The reason you can usually get them quicker than custom trucks is that most of the parts and sometimes the chassis are in stock.

    Our new truck is from Rosenbauer. While it was not a program truck, it was built right along side of program trucks and built by the same people. BVFD1983 made a good point as there are manufacturers that do have separate facilites for these units. I'm not sure who they all are but I think Pierce builds theirs in Florida?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BVFD1983
    Yep, but the BASIC model has a gas v8.

    Besides, you said $20,000 basic pickup truck. Last time I checked a one ton dually work truck with a diesel was nowhere close to that price. What is close to that price? A basic half ton.
    You actually this slow/don't understand the point (he is correct) or just trying to be a PITA?

    FYI

    Current HGAC contract prices follow. Add on your choice of options (like 4x4, diesel). Need for a 4x4 in a light duty truck is debatable and the diesel will not do a given job any better or worse than a gas. Same point as the pumper, buy the basic truck and add from the limited list STANDARDIZED options desired. You want custom doodads get out the taxpayers checkbook.

    https://www.hgacbuy.com/

    Philpott Ford F350 Super Duty RC, 4WD, 1-Ton, SRW, 5.4L V8, Man Trans, 9900# GVWR $16,116.00

    Philpott Ford F350 Super Duty Crew, 1-Ton, DRW, 6.8L V10, Man Trans, 11200# GVWR $17,910.00

    Philpott Ford F-450 Conventional cab; SRA; 15000# GVWR; Ford 6.8L gas engine @ 310 HP; 5600# front axle; 11000# rear axle; 141/60 wheelbase/CTA; 4-speed automatic transmission $18,383.00

  16. #16
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    Default Program Trucks

    BVFD1983 You are taking my analogy to literally. I didn't go out and price a pick up to the last penney, I'm merely trying to make the point that IMHO there are $150,000 program trucks out there that will serve a community nearly as well as a $300,000 custom truck.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber BVFD1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa
    You actually this slow/don't understand the point (he is correct) or just trying to be a PITA?

    I know what the point is but I was saying that a basic truck cannot do as much work as a more expensive truck with a bigger drivetrain and sometimes you have to upgrade the trim package to get a bigger motor.

    PS: None of the prices you mentioned were for diesels.
    Last edited by BVFD1983; 02-16-2006 at 06:53 PM.
    FTM - PTB

  18. #18
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddmcbr
    I'm not sure who they all are but I think Pierce builds theirs in Florida?
    About 50 miles south of here in Bradenton, Fl. They use an old facility that Pierce's parent compny used to build military vehicles in.
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  19. #19
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    Thumbs up To: Monrovia1

    I just seen your new E-one HP 100 aerial on " 1strespondernews.com web site , looks like a very nice rig for only $ 601,000 , good luck & stay safe !!
    Last edited by NewJerseyFFII; 02-18-2006 at 01:52 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BVFD1983
    I know what the point is but I was saying that a basic truck cannot do as much work as a more expensive truck with a bigger drivetrain and sometimes you have to upgrade the trim package to get a bigger motor.

    PS: None of the prices you mentioned were for diesels.
    Because has no relevance. A diesel vs the V-10?

    F-450 Conventional cab; SRA; 15000# GVWR; Ford 6.8L gas engine @ 310 HP; 5600# front axle; 11000# rear axle; 141/60 wheelbase/CTA; 4-speed automatic transmission $18,383.00

    Automatic is $1200, V10 is $500, A stinkin, hard starting diesel is $4300. So a F450 w/diesel/6spd manual is $21000. That close enough to $20k to suit you? Or go with the little F350 and cut out another $500.

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