1. #26
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    I would say that if the department is hard up enough they need to rely on subscription then you dont pay ....tough luck. We always say that the people will pay the amount of protection they want. So...................to darn bad I say ...........
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
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    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Quote Originally Posted by jakebty
    this makes me mad. any person with a good heart would put out the fire if no one else would. once again....money. that's all anyone ever cares about anymore. money. now this man just lost his business because the fd is greedy.
    No, he lost it because HE was greedy. He did not pay for protection, he did not pay for insurance, he took a gamble and he lost. Simple. I'm sure you guys who disagree with the fd stand on this issue will be sending the property owner some of your hard earned money because he wouldn't spend any of his, right? Maybe you could stop paying your insurance and send the payments to him, because who likes paying their insurance bill anyway. Do you people drive uninsured? Do you have your property insured? Do you have life insurance? Medical insurance? Dental insurance? Drop it all and depend on the kindness of others, and when you have a problem tell me how far that gets you. One man's total lack of personal responsibility does not deserve one ounce of sympathy from me. I'm sure your checks are in the mail!
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    No one plans on using their insurance till its too late. Should Allstate work the same way? Can I put them in my speedcall list, not pay anything, and wait till im in an accident to start a policy? Im sorry some departments have to operate like that, but the people they support know exactly what is expected of them. Why should one pay while the other doesn't, only to have the same benefit extended to the non-paid? What would their fund drive do next year?

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    I have to agree with you quint1officer. a person can not call the insurance company and say "yea i would like a fire insurance policy, by the way make it quick. My house is on fire now!" what do you think the response of the insurance company will be.
    Also, does anyone know if this is a private fire company or a government agency. If it is a private fire company than it is a bussiness. If you have a water leak in your house is a plumber going to fix it for free. Granted I feel that billing for service is a better way for the department to approach the matter instead of payment up front (that is my moral opion). However that is the way they operate just like alot of other companies, payment must be made up front before service is provided. For private fire companies it is a (for lack of better terms) profit company and not a non-profit government funded company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nkfiree1
    Also, does anyone know if this is a private fire company or a government agency. If it is a private fire company than it is a bussiness. If you have a water leak in your house is a plumber going to fix it for free. Granted I feel that billing for service is a better way for the department to approach the matter instead of payment up front (that is my moral opion). However that is the way they operate just like alot of other companies, payment must be made up front before service is provided. For private fire companies it is a (for lack of better terms) profit company and not a non-profit government funded company.
    They are a non-profit corporation, or "association" as statutes defines it.

    The biggest problem I see coming out of this is the FF's comments to the state trooper. They've done this a number of times, fought non-member fires for "buddies." Basically picking and choosing when they'll enforce the by-laws. This time it happens to be they enforced it with a minority and actually had the gall to tell a state trooper where someone could over-hear it that they'd fight the his fire.

    Something my department's been pondering... if you're not going to fight the fire, are you blocking traffic illegally by parking and blocking the entire road, or even trespassing if you enter the owners property?

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    Quote Originally Posted by howells22
    Anyone who sympathizes with this department is a idiot. Rayr49 you call a fire department a governmental type agency; well most governmental agencies are messed up and this department is no different. If you have problems with funding you need to pursue other means. These guys need to be taken out and beaten. I'll bet if you put most of the guys together in this department you would be lucky to get a full set of teeth!
    Tell you what, skippy. We'll give you a few hours to post an apology. None of the people you are talking about, especially me, are "idiots".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    They are a non-profit corporation, or "association" as statutes defines it.

    The biggest problem I see coming out of this is the FF's comments to the state trooper. They've done this a number of times, fought non-member fires for "buddies." Basically picking and choosing when they'll enforce the by-laws. This time it happens to be they enforced it with a minority and actually had the gall to tell a state trooper where someone could over-hear it that they'd fight the his fire.

    Something my department's been pondering... if you're not going to fight the fire, are you blocking traffic illegally by parking and blocking the entire road, or even trespassing if you enter the owners property?
    A business is permitted to donate their services to anyone they want. Businesses do it all the time. It may be a PR blunder, but it is certainly not a legal problem.

  8. #33
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    to save time, this is exactly what I posted in the thread on the main page. and here I am agreeing with Norm, Fred, our La buddy, and the big guy from chicago!!! is this a sign of the Apocalypse?
    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    "Several times I sai I would pay the fees or just send me a bill," said Rueda.

    According to the Monett Rural Fire Department membership office, firefighters cannot accept membership fees after a fire has started.
    right, because if they did allow that, no one would bother to pay the fees. they would just offer to pay if they needed the service. they put ads i the paper, had a stand at walmart, and told people about it at octoberfest. what do you want, every new resident gets a personal phone call and visit from a volunteer FF explaining how they work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    Rueda, who was uninsured lost around $30,000 worth of cars and equipment in the fire.
    and yet, I have little sympathy. what he should have done was while the fire was burning, called his insurance company and set up a policy, to cover all of his stuff. this way after the fire, the company would write him a check to replace the damaged stuff.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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    O.K. O.K I opoligize for the idiot comment; but I still believe the way they are set up and what happened is wrong. I think it would be better if they formed a district and had everyone pay their fair share; this way they would not have to make these choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by howells22
    O.K. O.K I opoligize for the idiot comment; but I still believe the way they are set up and what happened is wrong. I think it would be better if they formed a district and had everyone pay their fair share; this way they would not have to make these choices.
    Fair enough.

    What are you going to do to change it if you feel so strongly about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by howells22
    O I still believe the way they are set up and what happened is wrong. .

    You sir , can beleive anything you want as long as you want. That is a fact.



    I am going to express an opinion here as well. The homeowner probably moved to this town because it had the attractive "No "E" tax" which basically means you dont have to pay extra taxes for a fire department. Add to the matter that he also did NOT have any property insurance. I can sympathise with 18 days and no policy, but 18 months? Nope sorry, this guy wasnt concerned with fire protection

    What a lot of folks need to realize that there are places in this country that are DIFFERENT than where they are from. And just because folks somewhere else don't "Do it the same as here" doesnt mean its wrong.

    Ufortunately it will take a tragedy to change the minds of the general public.

    And as far a notification, the fire department can ( and should) work with the Realtors selling in the area to get the word out to new residents.
    Last edited by pvfire424; 02-17-2006 at 11:08 AM. Reason: minor spelling stuff again...
    I.A.C.O.J. "The Cork"

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    Quote Originally Posted by howells22
    ... everyone pay their fair share...

    It is funny you mention that, this guy paid his fair share & got EXACTLY What he paid for.
    I.A.C.O.J. "The Cork"

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvfire424
    It is funny you mention that, this guy paid his fair share & got EXACTLY What he paid for.
    .........touche` !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    If someone wants to take the time to look it up, seems as though there are fulltime city departments that stop at the city line even if they can see the building burning on the other side of the street. I believe that there was something here on the forums about such a thing at one time. The places that get 2 men on an engine are getting what they are willing to pay for. We get four on a rig here while our more affluent neighbors get 3, sometimes 2. If they wanted to they could afford 5, but they do not desire to spend their money on fire protection.

  15. #40
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    As posted in the other discussion, he got exactly what he paid for, nothing. The fire department isn't greedy, they are doing a service with an associated fee. The shop owner felt he didn't need to pay it, or general loss insurance for that matter.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Somehow I'm not picturing this department as greedy .... I don't think thier station probably has a tiki-bar or a restraunt grade kitchen. I doubt thier rigs have much in the way of diamond plate or frills.. Hell I'll even bet most of thier equipment has been around in the fire service as long as I have. To call a department "greedy" that in all probability just scraps by the pay the day to day operating expenses shows that you have very little appreciation of how a rural fire company operates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Somehow I'm not picturing this department as greedy .... I don't think thier station probably has a tiki-bar or a restraunt grade kitchen. I doubt thier rigs have much in the way of diamond plate or frills.. Hell I'll even bet most of thier equipment has been around in the fire service as long as I have. To call a department "greedy" that in all probability just scraps by the pay the day to day operating expenses shows that you have very little appreciation of how a rural fire company operates.

    Knowing these guys, I don't think they're "greedy" by any means. Fact is, they could collect more money fighting non-member fires and billing like most other departments in the area. Truth be known, most of the firefighters don't agree with the policy. Most of them would have been glad to fight the fire, but won't for fear of being "fired" by the board.

    I don't agree with their policy, but I do feel that you don't fight one non-member fire and then watch on the next. Then, you don't sit and watch blocking on of the more travelled roads into town. Either go home or sit on your member's property to watch.

    I also don't think that a couple of fund-raisers at Wal-Mart and the Octoberfest, coupled with an ad in a paper most people don't subscribe to, especially the hispanic population is adequate notification of the membership requirements. The goal of the Wal-Mart and Octoberfest events are not to get the word out about memberships, it's to raise funds with cookouts or raffles and to do a little PR.
    Last edited by Catch22; 02-23-2006 at 11:43 AM.

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    Default for those against this FD's reg's

    Supposed you lived in this department's boundries. You pay your yearly dues, fees or subscription which ever applies. The bill comes and you pay it and feel safe about doing so.
    Now it's 2AM and your house is on fire. You call 911 and request the Fire Department. You and your family are outside and your home goes from smoldering smoke emitting from the basement to a full blown fire enveloping the structure and no firefighters have arrived. 30 minutes pass and what was a savagable structure at first is now a pile of rubble and still no department has arrived after forty five minutes.
    Before an hour passes a fire apparatus pulls up. Your enraged at the response time (not to mention your home burned down) and you greet the first firefighter with your anger.
    HIS/HER RESPONSE. WE WERE ACROSS TOWN FIGHTING A NON- SUSCRIBERS HOUSE FIRE AND WE HAD TO PICK UP HOSE AND EQUIPMENT TO GET HERE.

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    Also there is some liability when a department leaves their district or jursidiction unprotected and they are not on a mutual aid run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22
    I also don't think that a couple of fund-raisers at Wal-Mart and the Octoberfest, coupled with an ad in a paper most people don't subscribe to, especially the hispanic population is adequate notification of the membership requirements.
    But I assume he knew about property insurance and he didn't want to pay for that either.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22

    I will say they have some of the nicer equipment around the area for a membership department. They rarely apply for any kind of grant. But, at the same time, they have little training. Only 1, maybe 2 has any formal firefighting training (i.e. Firefighter I and II, or even the state's "basic firefighter skills" class). A couple more have taken first responder several years ago, but have never done much refreshing.
    I'm not sure I would want to pay for "untrained" folks to be my PROTECTION!

    I also don't think that a couple of fund-raisers at Wal-Mart and the Octoberfest, coupled with an ad in a paper most people don't subscribe to, especially the hispanic population is adequate notification of the membership requirements. The goal of the Wal-Mart and Octoberfest events are not to get the word out about memberships, it's to raise funds with cookouts or raffles and to do a little PR.
    I agree. If you are going to require folks to pay for fire service, then that should be common knowldge to everybody in the area! I think at a minimum they should be required to send letters to every house and business in their area, or show up in person.

    BTW, what do they do for fire prevention services? Do they only do Fire Inspections to members?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enginehouse2
    Supposed you lived in this department's boundries. You pay your yearly dues, fees or subscription which ever applies. The bill comes and you pay it and feel safe about doing so.
    Now it's 2AM and your house is on fire. You call 911 and request the Fire Department. You and your family are outside and your home goes from smoldering smoke emitting from the basement to a full blown fire enveloping the structure and no firefighters have arrived. 30 minutes pass and what was a savagable structure at first is now a pile of rubble and still no department has arrived after forty five minutes.
    Before an hour passes a fire apparatus pulls up. Your enraged at the response time (not to mention your home burned down) and you greet the first firefighter with your anger.
    HIS/HER RESPONSE. WE WERE ACROSS TOWN FIGHTING A NON- SUSCRIBERS HOUSE FIRE AND WE HAD TO PICK UP HOSE AND EQUIPMENT TO GET HERE.

    So it would be better to state "We were across town fighting ANOTHER SUSCRIBERS fire"?

    There needs to be some kind of better dispatch/mutual aid system in place if any department could not handle 2 calls at the same time in their district.

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    Default My 2 cents

    How much time and money would be spent on taking this guy to court to collect monies owed? Chances are this guy would be gone with no forwarding address, there are many like that throughout the world.
    I don't know where your from but in most of these small towns Walmart is the only place to shop. Most downtown businesses are closed due to Walmart. So, if this guy ever wanted everyday goods thats where he went, so he knew. Even if you only go down to the lake place every so often, you know if its paid by etax or subscription. Again I state that he knew 18 months was long enough.

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    YOu guys "what if" this to death and are so appalled by it-I'll ask the question again. If you are so upset and shocked by this, what are you (not anybody else but YOU) going to do about it?

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    "BTW, what do they do for fire prevention services? Do they only do Fire Inspections to members?"

    Last I knew, they don't provide any prevention or inspection services. Just some PR things here and there at events. They cover the area outside of the City of Monett, the City has their own department that's seperate. The rural area is primarily residential and farm land, with the occassional commercial property.



    Enginehouse--
    We've actually ran into similar situations before. The way we handle it is to call in mutual aid to fight the other fire. The one that jumps to mind is a day we had three fires withing an hour of each other. First one we were mutual aid, had a non-member call that we had mutual aid come in on, third was a member grass fire threatening a structure that we called another mutual aid and broke from the scene we were assisting on to handle.

    Mutual aid in the area is typically only 5 mins at the most slower than another department's response.

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