1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Let's just agree to disagree as we have debated this before.
    Sadly, this is just what not learning from others experiences are all about. No one could possibly admit that their wrong.

    BROTHERS HAVE DIED!! What other F***ing proof do you need? Fires don't burn any different in NYC than they do in LA or in my 'burg. Fires do burn faster and hotter than ever before. Wind, while being harnessed for power cannot be tamed conventionally, and as pointed out by our Brother's from FDNY can have a HUGE negative impact on highrise fires. There's another thread on Officers being charged criminally in LODD's. Don't let this be you for ignoring the lessons learned from these tragic deaths!!


    PS; if I seem a little pointed its because I trying to become an ordained minsister in Church of Painful Truth!

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    RFD ..

    I do learn from these forums. If you read my post there is a major operational difference between FDNY and the department in Vermont to which I am referring (I was a member there for 14 years). The difference is FDNY is using thier line to attack the fire, for which a 2.5" is perfect, and the 1.75" we were using on our first in high-rise pack was intended to primarily cover search operations, knockdown extension (not direct fire attack) and conduct overhaul. In all likelihood fire attack would be made by a second crew with a 2.5" from another stairwell, or more than likely, by exterior lines from a truck company. It is not effective to search carrying a 2.5" line, and by policy, ALL search crews had to have a line with them. We did not search without them.

    If conditions were such that they would likely create an unsafe operationg condition much like those described by the FDNY brothers, the crews were expected to rapidly evacuate the fire floor and abandon all search and fire attack operations. As I stated, we knew our limitations and our SOPs generally did not envolve aggressive interior low-rise fire attack. we simply did not have the training, experience and resources for this.

    Different Focus. Different Mindset. Different Gear.

    PS... This policy was develop and equipment selected by our very experienced Chief Officers. I trusted thier judgement and understood that the equipment they selected mirrored the SOPs they developed for this type of firefighting.

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    LA......Bro...how many High Rise Fires does you Dept do a year? What is your experiance? I am not trying to break your balls but if you have been in a hallway of a good high rise job you would be trying to change your tactics. And when I say high rise.....I mean anything over 75' tall, or seven stories and above. If your high rises are only 4 stories then thats a different story, and to us, that isn't a high rise. As a rule of thumb, I have always said a high rise is anything out of reach of your highest ladder, and if you come from a dept with no arieal device and the tallest ladder is a 35 footer....then yeah 4 stories is in a way a high rise, but to me that is putting your community in perall. Do you guys have an ariel device?

    Like I said before, when we say high rise, we mean a bldg over 75'. I have been to fires that were in class 1 buildings that were only 3 stories and have standpipes. We don't use the standpipes....we stretch 2.5" from the street. Also In our procedures, you can stretch from the street for High rise fire if the fire is on one of the first two floors.

    I know that in my time as a vollie I never fought a fire in a building over 4 stories. And in over a year OTJ w/ FDNY I have been to quite a few High Rise fires in both the Engine and Truck. It is apples and oranges. Getting up to the fire floor, trying to confine the fire and geeting the first line in place and putting water on the fire is the FIRST and FOREMOST goals of everyone. If the fire is blowing out of the apt door into the hallway, then primary searches on that floor will be delayed until the line can get into operation. Putting members into the fire floor hall with out a line,(in this case) is not such a great Idea. The only place that the fire is venting is into that hallway, turning it into a virtual pizza oven. If the door is close enough, a good truck will try to make the door and pull it closed with the hook...but this takes some serious balls, experiance, and speed. They will have to craw on thier bellies to try and reach it, and will most likely suffer some burns. But as soon as the stairwell door is open, remember that all that sh*t is going to hit you in the mush. With all the advances today, it is easier to find the fire with a TIC from the door way.....all the while someone could be on the floor below getting the layout of the fire floor. Crack the door, pear with the TIC, tell the engine which way, move in, tear azz down the hallway like a raped ape, open up, push into the room, take a beating, and put the g-d dam'nd fire out. If its too intense you will most likey have to operate from a distance, hitting and moving in close enough to do any damage to the fire.

    Here is a link to a couple of recent fires in the Bronx.....you tell me if your current tactics will work.....(a forum member here took this shots, NDemarse....you rubber... )
    http://www.nycfire.net/gallery1/FDNY06-09
    http://www.nycfire.net/gallery1/FDNY06-07
    Last edited by VinnieB; 03-25-2006 at 02:26 PM.
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    OK - in my fire district there is only 1 "mid-rise" building. (6 stories) It has a Class II standpipe system. Inch and a half plumbing, and inch and a half hose for occupant use. The occupants won't be flowing any water because they are all elderly. Building is of fire-resistant concrete construction, with an alarm system, but NO sprinklers.

    I'm leaning toward 2" for hi-rise packs. Can't really see the logic in putting 3" on a 1 1/2" outlet.

    We've had 2 serious fires in this building. Both were contained to the apartment of origin with 1 1/2" hi-rise packs off the standpipe, But the 1 1/2" hose just makes me a little nervous.

    Any suggestions?
    Last edited by MEAN15; 03-25-2006 at 04:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEAN15
    OK - in my fire disrtict there is only 1 "mid-rise" building. (6 stories) It has a Class II standpipe system. Inch and a half plumbing, and inch and a half hose for occupant use. The occupants won't be flowing any water because they are all elderly. Building is of fire-resistant concrete construction, with an alarm system, but NO sprinklers.

    I'm leaning toward 2" for hi-rise packs. Can't really see the logic in putting 3" on a 1 1/2" outlet.

    We've had 2 serious fires in this building. Both were contained to the apartment of origin with 1 1/2" hi-rise packs off the standpipe, But the 1 1/2" hose just makes me a little nervous.

    Any suggestions?
    Wow. All I can say is that you guys must be using some crazy fire code there. Can your Fire Marshal or Buildings dept determine what the designed flow(at a certain pressure) should be for that system...that might help you determine what hose to use. If you can get 250 gpm (unlikely) at 70-80 psi at the valve then switch to

    Or a simple thing to do is get a flow meter and for the daily drill go to the 6th floor stretch to the roof and flow off the standpipe...this will give you the worst case flow (assuming you don't have PRVs, -shouldn't on 6 stories) and you can make some educated decsions based on that.

    I would use the biggest hose your system will allow or set up your Engines for a backstretch from the hydrant. You would have to team up the 1st and 2nd Due Engines for this task.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- You don't have to be high up in a high-rise to get killed... A standpipe is a standpipe on the 3rd floor or the 73rd floor.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-25-2006 at 04:06 PM.

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    Fire code? What's a Fire Code?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    Fires don't burn any different in NYC than they do in LA or in my 'burg.

    No, but the buildings are different. We dont have any city block x city block, 50 storie buildings with closed hallways here. If we did, we would have 2 1/2" in our packs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

    Different Focus. Different Mindset. Different Gear.
    First off let me say this: I was in no way limiting my post soley to you. There are many others who are trying to defend their lazy 1.75" will do, cause its easier, approach. What other excuse is there? You don't want more water? It's too heavy? We don't have enough firefighters? BS! Get with the program and modify you operation to fit what we (the fire service as a whole) have learned!

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    PS... This policy was develop and equipment selected by our very experienced Chief Officers. I trusted thier judgement and understood that the equipment they selected mirrored the SOPs they developed for this type of firefighting.
    Sometimes you must have a reality check on "very experienced chief officers". I've had some too. Some thought that because they'd never killed anybody using booster lines, that we should pull them first everytime. Same guys who called us sissies for using SCBA. Too often departments get blind to anything outside their little world. Never having an LODD doesn't mean it can't or won't happen.

    I understand what you're saying about searching with the line vs. attacking the fire, but I just disagree I guess. If the first line off can't handle the fire it doesn't matter what its assignment. You jumping in the fire floor out gunned? Or worse going above? I'd still rather have the 2.5" first going to the fire area to get control while we search without a line. If we can have a 1.75" line second, great!

    I'm glad what you've done has worked for you, and hopefully it always will. But at some point many of us have to admit there are lessons to be learned from the big city that apply right here in Podunk. And operating from standpipes is one of them.

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    Vinnie ...

    The department I am referring to is my former department in Vermont (1988-2002), and the tallest structure was a couple of 5 story hotels (sprinklered) and several 4 story hotels, office buildings and college dorms. We did have a 75' Mack Aerialscope (ex-FDNY by the way), purchased in 1991 just after the building boom started, which means technically those structures are not high rises, except fot the backside (5 story side) of the 2 hotels (which has been part of my point all along). In 2002 they purchased a 95' Stuphen Tower. We also ran automatic mutual aid to 1 10 story senior citizen apartment complex not fitted with standpipes, and some 4 story commerical and residental structures fitted with both sprinklers and a standpipe system.

    We had never had a fire worth mentioning in any of these structures in our district, with the exception of the dorms. To the best of my knowledge we had 3 in the 20 years ... 2 of them were extingushed with sprinklers prior to our arrival and the 3rd was on the 3rd floor successfully extingushed with a 1.5" line streched up a ladder through an adjoining window. I personally have worked 5 or 6 fires in buildings between 3 and 5 stories (primarily MA), which would qualify as very limited experience, and while I do not doubt your discription of the fires in high rise fires you have rolled to, my experience does not mirror that. Part of the reason was design and building materials used. For that reason, the command staff's decison to design our high rise packs as they chose them did not concern me.

    The department I am currently on in Louisiana had nothing above a single story, so hence no high rise packs.

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    Hey LA, not to undermine you at all bro, but...

    Tactics are changing rapidly. RIT crews are in place on fire scenes in short periods of time, departments are certifying all members in high and low angle rope rescue, HazMat, and other forms of tech rescue. The "new" training is changing how everyone operates. Things are growing rapidly, and tactics are changing with them.

    The changes are being brought on fast, and pretty soon, Chittenden County for the most part will be full-time combination departments. Many departments are starting to listen to the "big boys" when it comes to tactics and training.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    343

    Was up there just a few months ago and noticed the primary high-rise packs were still 1.75" lines.

    The department I was referring to (and you know which one it is) has been very progressive since the early 90's and has adopted many of the newer "big city" techniques including RIT. The confined space/trench/high-angle/water-ice-dive work in that town is handled by the EMS agency with some assistance from the other FD in town that has much more water exposure than we did, and while we trained in support ops, there was never much interest to get heavily envolved as they did it very well. They have even become somewhat more envolved in EMS first response, though at this point, at the direction of the EMS transport agency, it's still fairly limited. We did and would assume we still do keep very much up with the times and were open to new ideas and concepts .. after they were tested to make sure they would work for us in our situation (staffing, construction types, etc.). In fact, we were one of the first departments to have a standarized 45 hour course that was required for all new members before they stepped on the fireground way back in the mid-80's. That program has now been expeanded to all of the departments in the northern end of the county, as well as several departments in other counties.

    I agree that everyone should read up on what other departments are doing, buit some of the tactics used by the big boys are simply not applicable everywhere else. Most volunteer and I would also suspect MOST fire departments in general, unless in a large metro area, gets 4 engines, 2 trucks, and a squad each manned with 5 firefighters (guessing in FDNY that's about 30-35 people, others in may be more or less) on a first alarm assignment. With that kind of manpower they can shape thier tactics (and setup thier packs) to ATTACK the fire ,,, our tactics were (and apprently still are based on the 1.75" still in the packs) are to attack if the sprinkler system is functioning or the fire is manageble ... if not it was to simply search and contain the fire if possible. It's not that we were ignoring standards, but simply building our packs what we are going to be doing based on the expected manpower and thier experience level. There was a 2.5" available if the tactics changed or manpower was increased.

    I do disagree with your opinion though that most of Chittenden County will have paid firefighters soon. Most of the departments want to very much hang on to the vollie tradition, and based on the fact that they are able to maintain very high membership levels (some even have waiting lists), I only see SBFD going in that direction anytime soon. This is especially true given the number of automatic mutual aid pacts (CCVFC/MBFD/WINFD & WILFD/EFD/EJFD as examples) being used very effectivly to deal with daytime manpower issues. At this point the vollie departments seem to be handling the load just fine .. and it's certainly my hope that it will stay that way for a long time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-26-2006 at 09:42 PM.

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    I hear ya LA, and the 1.75 is still very common in Chit-Co. All I'm saying is that as departments are getting more progessive, 2 1.75" aren't getting pulled, more often you see the manpower going to pull a 2.5, and having an extra guy or two , as well as the bigger line in service.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    I do disagree with your opinion though that most of Chittenden County will have paid firefighters soon. Most of the departments want to very much hang on to the vollie tradition, and based on the fact that they are able to maintain very high membership levels (some even have waiting lists), I only see SBFD going in that direction anytime soon. This is especially true given the number of automatic mutual aid pacts (CCVFC/MBFD/WINFD & WILFD/EFD/EJFD as examples) being used very effectivly to deal with daytime manpower issues. At this point the vollie departments seem to be handling the load just fine .. and it's certainly my hope that it will stay that way for a long time.
    Shelburne is going career soon enough.
    South Burlington "recently" added more positions.
    Rumor is that Burlington is going for more positions soon.
    Williston has / is getting more positions.

    Quite a few surveys have been going around, researching the ability to go to a career service. A few of the FDs are looking to pull out of the college / seperate EMS service, and take over, with a full time crew that does fire and EMS. We'll see, as time goes on. Things sure are growing fast up there though, and getting alot more interesting.

    The waiting list sure is an interesting tidbit though, especially up in that area. Every other part of the state is "hurting" for volunteers, although services generally aren't that bad off, with a good membership base of 25-30 members. The waiting list is going to be a pain once I'm living up there all the time. Going to try to get my name in early. Kind of worried that I won't be able to vollie at all while living in S. Burlington. I can't necessarily join SBFD, due to a conflict of interest that may be present, y'know?

    BTW: Shelburne is out right now. Williston, Shelburne, S Burlington, Burlington, both of the Essex's I believe..
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    343
    (guessing in FDNY that's about 30-35 people, others in may be more or less) on a first alarm assignment. With that kind of manpower they can shape thier tactics (and setup thier packs) to ATTACK the fire ,,, our tactics were (and apprently still are based on the 1.75" still in the packs) are to attack if the sprinkler system is functioning or the fire is manageble ... if not it was to simply search and contain the fire if possible. It's not that we were ignoring standards, but simply building our packs what we are going to be doing based on the expected manpower and thier experience level. There was a 2.5" available if the tactics changed or manpower was increased.

    You guys need to stop guessing about us. (sorry...not pointing fingers at you LA)

    The first line is put into place by the first due company. The first due companies....11 to12 Men....are all we have right away. We don't wait for ALL of the initial alarm companies to arrive to go into action. Every High Rise job I have been to, First Due Eng and Lad were the only ones pushing into the apt......remember that everyone else has to walk up too. So that means.....4 men carry up 4 lengths, hook up, and flow water.....The ECC usually hooks up by himself too.....unless 2d Due is real close.
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    ______________
    Last edited by sfd2605; 03-17-2008 at 09:08 PM.

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    343 ...

    3 years ago when I left, Milton and Winooski fire had waiting lists, and possibly Malletts Bay. I didn't know of any other. Essex Town sometimes does because they are limited to 30 members. If you need any info on any of the departments in the northern end of the county just ding me and I'll tell ya what I know.

    I'm surprised that Shelburne is hiring some FT staff, but not too surprised by Williston, though I'm sure it's just minimal coverage. Burlington is always looking to add positions as last I knew they were running 2 man crews on 3 of thier engines and a 2 man crew on the tower, which was often dropped to 1 if the 2nd man was needed as a full-in at another company.

    I know last time I was up there I noticed that Colchester Center bought 2" with thier new engine as the primary attack line. I had used that about 18 years ago with Essesx Town and then some when I first joined the Center 3 years later, but because of it's bulkiness, both departments were phasing it out and replacing it with 1.75". Personnally I don't like it as it's too bulky for interior ops with a 2 man attack team (usual daytime size), but it's interesting to see how things come back around.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-28-2006 at 09:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd2605
    All these suggestions are great but your high rise pack should fit the needs of the area in which you cover

    The arguement is that many of you are not seeing is that "fitting your needs" is BS! If you're connecting to a standpipe system your needs are the same as mine as they're the same in NYC. The "needs" assessment is being based on the wrong variables. It should be based on enough flow to handle the fire, not the number of available firefighters (would-be victims) on a first due engine.

    Our high rise packs on every truck are all the same. We have a primary and a secondary both are equipped with 200 feet of light weight 1 3/4 hose the primary however has a 10' 2 1/2 inch pony to hook to the standpipe which on the end of that has a 2 1/2 to 1 1/2 gated wye. Though i am a fan of smooth bore nozzles our high rise packs have akron pistol grip fogs.

    The issue isn't whether you like fog or SB, its that fog has too many down sides. First if you use fog it better be "low pressure" and not a 100 psi nozzle. Second, due to the lack of use of the systems you can expect alot a crap in the pipes which will clog the fog.

    The reason we use 1 3/4 is like i said we are a small department we dont have many bodies to menuver a hose therefore we use the smaller of attack lines. As i mentioned before we use bags the primary can be quite heavy but isnt that bad cause of the light weight hose.

    The shortage of firefighters is an issue in most places. It is not an excuse to put the brothers in harms way by sending them in outgunned. Team up Co.s and get the first line in place. If you're like us and short staffed you can't afford to have any brothers laid up.
    Often times the right way and the easy way are not the same way!

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    This is going to be my last post on this issue.

    RFD ....

    This is not meant as a slam but as a point of information. One more than one occasion in these forums I have seen some of your FDNY brothers say, when refering to NFPA standards, that "things are different here and those standards don't fit our needs". If you doubt me, look back at the recent thread on mounting of tools in the cab. Well, I'm sorry bro... If you are going to pick and choose standards as they apply and don't apply to your operation, then please don't lecture anyone else on adopting standards to thier enviroment. Your department beleives in and uses smoothbores daily, and that's fine, for you. However, most departments in this country don't have a clue about smoothbores, and if they even own them, they sit in a cabinet somewhere for the sole purpose of being on the rigs when ISO comes to call. That's just the way it is. Many departments rarely if ever pull a 2.5", no matter what size the fire is. They may or may not train on them. That's just the way it is. Departments operate differently and wether you like it or not, you need to accept it. Tactics are based on a lot of things, and your brothers are very fond of using the word tradition when discussing tactics. Well other departments have tradtions as well, and often they do not include can-men and smoothbores and 2.5" lines and searching above the fire. If you can base some of your ops on your traditions.. then you can't say they can't.

    My only points here is that if your brothers (and not pointing to you in particuliar) can say that some of the standards don't work here because we're diffrent, don't throw stones at those who say the same thing, and remember that there are departments that do not operate like you do. They don't have your skills, experience, don't beleive in some of the equipment you do (smoothbores as an example) and will always do it the way they feel comfortable doing it. It's just the way it is.

    Again this is not a slam against the FDNY or any of it's members. Just a slam against double standards.

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    Our one existing "standpipe" is a 1" pipe that goes 3 stories. With only 1" pipe, do I really have to use 2 1/2" hose to travel the 75' the hallway may stretch?

    Always and Never. Two words that don't hold true in the fire service.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Our one existing "standpipe" is a 1" pipe that goes 3 stories. With only 1" pipe, do I really have to use 2 1/2" hose to travel the 75' the hallway may stretch?

    Always and Never. Two words that don't hold true in the fire service.
    I would just stretch from the street...using a standpipe that is 1" is a sure way to get you into the wrong side of a NIOSH report. Just because some half wit allowed this 1" pipe to be considered legally a standpipe doesn't mean it is a true standpipe.

    FTM-PTB

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    Lets get a few things stated so there is no confusion.

    1. It takes 4 men to advance a 2 1/2" from a stairwell. Not 30-35 or whatever number you guys want to focus on. 4 How many of you small Dept guys can't muster 4 men? You say how can that happen in NYC with 4 Engines on the 1st alarm that one would only have 4 men to stretch and operate...here is the senario:

    Engine 55 is 1st Due and takes the elevator to the 15th floor (fire on the 17th) The elevator malfunctions and won't return to the 1st floor...guess what...everyone else has to hump up the stairs! Eng 24,7, 9 Lad 20, 8 & might be all there standing in the lobby all 20 + men...but now it will be at least 10 mintues or more before they get to the 16th floor. Happens more than you think.

    And if 4 of your guys don't have the strength or endurance to hump 2 1/2" either get in the gym or find another line of work. You took a physical blue collar job and you shouldn't be making c*nty excuses about how heavy a hose is. Stop embarasing yourself and your company and be a man.

    2. Oakland, Denver, Some FDs in Florida and numerous others use 2 1/2" hose as well and have much lower staffing levels than we do. Why only bring up FDNY?

    3.The FDNY doesn't blindly follow the NFPA. We do what we do and if it happens to jive with the NFPA then great. We aren't the ones who put stock in the NFPA...almost everyone of the guys who supports using small diameter hose is also an ardent supporter of the NFPA thats why we bring up the NFPA 14 issue for your consideration...we aren't the ones picking a choosing which NFPA rules we follow.

    And furthermore complaining that we don't follow NFPA XXXX on whatever issue still doesn't change the fact that most Standpipes were built to meet NFPA 14 and the pressures associated with the system...they were designed to use 2 1/2" with smoothbores.

    That's all I can say for now...I'm astounded at the ignorance from the safety susies out there.

    FTM-PTB

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    I would just stretch from the street
    We do.

    I'll stick with the last lines of my previous post.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    LAFIRE:
    First: I'm not from the FDNY. Never have worked there, never will. have a few freinds that work there and I appreciate the knowledge that they and our other Brothers there impart on those of us who might not do quite as many runs. When I say Brothers, I include you too and anyone else who chooses to partake in the Battle with the Red Dragon.

    Second: I didn't say anything about NFPA but clearly now that you mention it there is a huge differnce. NFPA standards regarding firefighting practices are fo rth most point non-mandatory suggested guidelines. Very few states (if any) adopt them all in their entirity. Yet, NFPA 101 and other related building , Life Safety, and Fire Protection Features codes are most often adopted as law. Therefore my point is that yes, NFPA 14 does regulate standpipes and most often they'll be built to their standards. What are the standpipes in your area built to? Does the code specify that they must provide 100psi at the furthest outlet? I don't see any picking and choosing of which NFPA standards to follow. You don't have much choice if NFPA codes are adpoted as law, but those that area not give you the option to use a little more common sense. Of course they'll be brought up when you're trial for something, but thats another matter.

    FFFRED: many folks can't get past the Left for Life B.S! Up here we call it Left for Lobster!

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    First off....this is a blanket statment....not ment for anyone inperticular...unless you think 1.75 w/ Fog is an ok high rise pack...for Class 1 or 2 High Rises.

    Ditto to what FFRED said.....4 members to hump the line up. 1 member stay at the floor below to regulate the pressure, another stay at the door to help feed line, and 2 to operate the nozzle, 1 nozzleman and 1 back up man. If the engine is only a 4 man engine...then eliminate the door position....and that leaves...only 2 men to advance a 2.5" down the hallway.


    Now.....For the most part I could care less what you do if the building is less than 75'. For that...even if the building has a standpipe....i would just stretch up the interior stairs....but thats just us.

    As for my 1st due response area....we have atleast 40 highrise residential buildings (projects) that range from 10 stories (most common is 14 stories) to 30 stories. And fires are common in them. So my experiance is based on my own first hand experiance and knowledge and everything that has been passed down to me by my senior men. Not to mention that high rise fires are not new to us, we have been fighting fires in the buildings on a regular basis since the Flat Iron Building was built. We have killed members by using 1.75" lead lengths. You can get away with it up to about the 6th or 7th floor. But to fight a fire in a real deal high rise.....such as the 16th floor, 25th floor, or as in the Empire State Building in the 90s...75th Floor....you are going to need 2.5" . And if you are fighting a fire in a Class 1 or 2 building that happens to be in a high wind area.....good luck using you 1.75" with Fog tip. 150 or 180 GPM will just not cut it in a wind swept hallway of a building of this type. You have to remember that ventilation is near impossible in a class 1 or 2 building. It all just goes into the hallway, you can't cut the floor above, and you can't cut the roof. That leaves the attack stairs and roof bulkhead as your best options. Again....take a look at this recent fire at Tracy Towers in the Bronx. If you can tell me that 1.75" will work on this job...then I'll plant a big, wet, kiss on ya'

    http://www.nycfire.net/gallery1/FDNY06-09

    For your next drill. See if you can LOAD up your burn building like a regular apt would be, and I mean don't hold back, furniture, rugs, full clothes dressers, etc....everything you would find in a normal apt...then Light it up....turn on a PPV fan and direct it into a window opposite the hose line. Use you 1.75" line w/ fog tip....and advance on the fire. That's the only way I think you can simulate this type of fire....and when (if) you get out of the burn center...you can tell me how it went......I hope no one actually tries this....just sit here and look at the pic I posted...and ponder.


    When I hear high rise....I am expecting a building thats over 75'....not one that is 40'. Isn't easier and more efficiant to stretch from the street on a building that is only 40' (or so) tall? Fire is on the second floor.....are you going to hook up to the 1st floor S/P? And why?

    PS....here is a little know fact. 1 engine Company can only control 2500SqFt of fire in a high rise building and that's using a 2.5" flowing 300 gpm.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 03-28-2006 at 09:53 PM.
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    Vinnie ...

    That has been one of my major points all along .... the buildings were would be using these packs on are not true high rises at all. They are a maximum of 5 stories, with most being 3 or 4. To us they were "high-rises", but certainly not high rises in the tru sense of the word. These packs were also intended to be used on the standpipes of our "wide-rises" as well.

    In the cases of the college dorms, before they were retrofitted with sprinkler systems they had no standpipes and we did stretch line up the stairwell. In fact, we even experimented with the strectching of 4" up the stairwells, which actually proved fairly successful if we had the manpower. Another common practice was for us to use the aerial as a standpipe at one end of the hall and stretch lines through the end room down the hallway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Vinnie ...

    That has been one of my major points all along .... the buildings were would be using these packs on are not true high rises at all. They are a maximum of 5 stories, with most being 3 or 4. To us they were "high-rises", but certainly not high rises in the tru sense of the word. These packs were also intended to be used on the standpipes of our "wide-rises" as well.

    In the cases of the college dorms, before they were retrofitted with sprinkler systems they had no standpipes and we did stretch line up the stairwell. In fact, we even experimented with the strectching of 4" up the stairwells, which actually proved fairly successful if we had the manpower......

    I see your point LA. But I agree w/ FFRED 110% about not trusting the sprinkler systems.

    This is my biggest teaching point I have been using for a long time. Get the first line inplace properly by the easiest means possible. To stretch 4" hose up stairwells takes a lot of people. I know that the stairwells I have been in....2 full dressed FF barely fit. Now put Smoke, heat, its 2am and fleeing civilians into the mix. There have been a few times that I have had to utilize the locals comming down the stairs to help me stretch b/c there are so many people trying to get out that getting up to the fire floor is hard to do. I couldn't even fathom the resources and time needed to place 4" line in a stairwell. 4 men should be plenty to stretch up to 10 lengths of hose. OR....there is the ole' rope bottle out the window trick....and well hole stretch that will significantly cut down on the amount of lengths required for a stretch.


    Another common practice was for us to use the aerial as a standpipe at one end of the hall and stretch lines through the end room down the hallway
    ACK!!!! This tactic should really not be used for an initial line unless....you have no interior stairs, or the main means on ingress is blocked...for some wierd reason.....but that is another thread.
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