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  1. #41
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Nice post FFRED. Tons of great info in there.


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    Thanks for all the great info. Hopefully I can use ya'lls knowledge to have our 11/2" higherise pack revamped.
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    Nice articles, thanks.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfleatherhead
    Thanks for all the great info. Hopefully I can use ya'lls knowledge to have our 11/2" higherise pack revamped.

    HOLY CHRIST!!!!!!!!

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    Vinnie- I think Erick meant revamped as in do away with what they have and hopefully go to 2.5'' or 2'', being that the powers that be allow that. I appreciate all the info FFFred. Those were some good articles. For anyone looking to convince their higher powers to make the switch to smooth bore and larger hose, there is a good article in this months Fire Engineering about a Florida dept. that did just that and how they went about it. Forgive me for not remembering their name. My memory sucks.

  6. #46
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    No packs here as we have nothin over 2 floors, and thats just an apartment garden style layout w/out standpipes.

    Previous department in Vermont was surburban department with 2-4 story office buildings, hotels, a hospital and several 4 story college dorms. All the structures were sprinklered with the exception of some of the college dorms, and even they were in the process of being retrofitted with sprinklers. We also had a few 1 or 2 story standpiped "wide-rises", all with sprinkler systems.

    High Rise pack was 2 sets of 100' of 1.75 (automatic fog nozzles) with an additional 100' on a third pack designed to be carried by the third man. Bag (carried by second man) had a 5' of 3", gated wye, spanners, door chocks, sprinkler chocks and a few miscellenous adapters. Had a 150' pack of 2.5 on the rig as well but generally was not carried up on initial operations.

    Since the vast majority of the buildings were sprinklered (and the ones at the time that were not were concrete) the packs were basically designed for follow-up/overhaul operations or light fire attack. The assumption was that the sprinklers would knock down the majority of fire before our arrival.

    The choice of 1.75 was based on the structures in our jurisdiction and the fact that they were mostly (now all I beleive) sprinklered structures. It worked for us.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Since the vast majority of the buildings were sprinklered (and the ones at the time that were not were concrete) the packs were basically designed for follow-up/overhaul operations or light fire attack. The assumption was that the sprinklers would knock down the majority of fire before our arrival.

    The choice of 1.75 was based on the structures in our jurisdiction and the fact that they were mostly (now all I beleive) sprinklered structures. It worked for us.
    Bro,

    I don't want to belabor the point but you never should ASSUME the sprinklers are working. If you are needing hose at all it is because the sprinklers probably aren't getting the job done or aren't working at all. The 3 brothers who died in Starrett City Brooklyn where in a building with sprinkers that were accidentialy SHUT OFF by maintenance men! Don't make assumptions that can't safely be made.

    The only assumption that can be made is that these standpipes were designed to be used with 2 1/2 hose. There is nothing mentioned anywhere regarding sprinklered occupancies vs. non sprinkerled changing the required hose to be used off the standpipe...they have all been designed equally.

    Another point about the college dorms...I lived in highrise college dorms years ago and due to the modifications made by students that you will never be aware of the sprinklers may be effectively eliminated from the equasion..with lofts, and other space creating adaptations the water won't hit the fire and leave a large area for fire growth.

    The reason you have high-rise hose is to fight a fire off a standpipe...not mop up after the sprinklers put it out. You will get away with it perhaps for 9 fires but that 10th one will make you and your dept look like an a*% and you better hope none of those precious college students die.

    Odds are the engineers designed the standpipe to be used with 2 1/2 under a best case senario...why second guess that fact?

    You will do whatever you want to...but it is amazing that someone who is soooo focused on safety will more or less advocate this method. Stop justifing substandard procedures that fly in the face of experienece and the physical laws that guide the Engineeers who designed these support systems for the fire service.

    We formerly allowed the use of 1 3/4 off the standpipe, it was up to the officer to make that decision. These guys are the most experienced in the country with Standpipes and we found out we still couldn't get it right (a number of men are dead or have been burnt badly)...we took that option away and reduced our risk. We admitted we were wrong and changed our policy...I can't understand why everyone else continues to make excuses.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-08-2006 at 03:32 PM.

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    Let's just agree to disagree as we have debated this before.

    Our approach was different from FDNY as in a high rise (4 stories maximum) the operational focus for the interior crews was more a quick search as compared to fire attack. More than likely fire attack would be accomplished through exterior ground level handlines and/or (elevated) master stream operations from the exterior. Handlines would only be used for overhaul once the bulk of the fire was knocked down from the exterior. They were generally an aggressive department but interior attack in this type of fire was probably not going to happen as the chief officers were smart enough to know our department's limitations due to staffing, training and experience.

    The 2 handlines were focused on search cover (as the policy was search teams DID NOT operate w/out a handline) and containment if possible.
    If a fire attack was to be attempted, more than likely the 2.5" would be used, but as I said, that initial fire attack was not standard policy for the first in crews.

    It's just the way we did things, and our equipment was designed to support our SOPs and operational goals.

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    FFFRED, excellent info. By any chance do you have the articles involving hoselines aloft under the similar heading, "Hose Company Operations?" A year or so ago FireEngineering (or may be FireHouse mag) put out a 3 part article in similar format regarding various methods of raising hoselines aloft via rope, instead of via the stairwells or ladders. It involved center hallway and garden style apartments. Thanks.

  10. #50
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kieranhope
    FFFRED, excellent info. By any chance do you have the articles involving hoselines aloft under the similar heading, "Hose Company Operations?" A year or so ago FireEngineering (or may be FireHouse mag) put out a 3 part article in similar format regarding various methods of raising hoselines aloft via rope, instead of via the stairwells or ladders. It involved center hallway and garden style apartments. Thanks.

    Kieran, that is actually in our Books. It is not to uncommon in my area to stretch a hoseline from the outside to a window on the floor below the fire, b/c or large NFP MDs that are setback and the entrance being in the center of the complex. We have one that comes to mind that 6 lengths are needed just to make the entrance of the building, and that's stretching from the street.

    This is our Engine Company Ops Book....
    http://sageauthoring.com/fdny/ft&p/ftpeng08.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Let's just agree to disagree as we have debated this before.
    Sadly, this is just what not learning from others experiences are all about. No one could possibly admit that their wrong.

    BROTHERS HAVE DIED!! What other F***ing proof do you need? Fires don't burn any different in NYC than they do in LA or in my 'burg. Fires do burn faster and hotter than ever before. Wind, while being harnessed for power cannot be tamed conventionally, and as pointed out by our Brother's from FDNY can have a HUGE negative impact on highrise fires. There's another thread on Officers being charged criminally in LODD's. Don't let this be you for ignoring the lessons learned from these tragic deaths!!


    PS; if I seem a little pointed its because I trying to become an ordained minsister in Church of Painful Truth!

  12. #52
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    RFD ..

    I do learn from these forums. If you read my post there is a major operational difference between FDNY and the department in Vermont to which I am referring (I was a member there for 14 years). The difference is FDNY is using thier line to attack the fire, for which a 2.5" is perfect, and the 1.75" we were using on our first in high-rise pack was intended to primarily cover search operations, knockdown extension (not direct fire attack) and conduct overhaul. In all likelihood fire attack would be made by a second crew with a 2.5" from another stairwell, or more than likely, by exterior lines from a truck company. It is not effective to search carrying a 2.5" line, and by policy, ALL search crews had to have a line with them. We did not search without them.

    If conditions were such that they would likely create an unsafe operationg condition much like those described by the FDNY brothers, the crews were expected to rapidly evacuate the fire floor and abandon all search and fire attack operations. As I stated, we knew our limitations and our SOPs generally did not envolve aggressive interior low-rise fire attack. we simply did not have the training, experience and resources for this.

    Different Focus. Different Mindset. Different Gear.

    PS... This policy was develop and equipment selected by our very experienced Chief Officers. I trusted thier judgement and understood that the equipment they selected mirrored the SOPs they developed for this type of firefighting.

  13. #53
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    LA......Bro...how many High Rise Fires does you Dept do a year? What is your experiance? I am not trying to break your balls but if you have been in a hallway of a good high rise job you would be trying to change your tactics. And when I say high rise.....I mean anything over 75' tall, or seven stories and above. If your high rises are only 4 stories then thats a different story, and to us, that isn't a high rise. As a rule of thumb, I have always said a high rise is anything out of reach of your highest ladder, and if you come from a dept with no arieal device and the tallest ladder is a 35 footer....then yeah 4 stories is in a way a high rise, but to me that is putting your community in perall. Do you guys have an ariel device?

    Like I said before, when we say high rise, we mean a bldg over 75'. I have been to fires that were in class 1 buildings that were only 3 stories and have standpipes. We don't use the standpipes....we stretch 2.5" from the street. Also In our procedures, you can stretch from the street for High rise fire if the fire is on one of the first two floors.

    I know that in my time as a vollie I never fought a fire in a building over 4 stories. And in over a year OTJ w/ FDNY I have been to quite a few High Rise fires in both the Engine and Truck. It is apples and oranges. Getting up to the fire floor, trying to confine the fire and geeting the first line in place and putting water on the fire is the FIRST and FOREMOST goals of everyone. If the fire is blowing out of the apt door into the hallway, then primary searches on that floor will be delayed until the line can get into operation. Putting members into the fire floor hall with out a line,(in this case) is not such a great Idea. The only place that the fire is venting is into that hallway, turning it into a virtual pizza oven. If the door is close enough, a good truck will try to make the door and pull it closed with the hook...but this takes some serious balls, experiance, and speed. They will have to craw on thier bellies to try and reach it, and will most likely suffer some burns. But as soon as the stairwell door is open, remember that all that sh*t is going to hit you in the mush. With all the advances today, it is easier to find the fire with a TIC from the door way.....all the while someone could be on the floor below getting the layout of the fire floor. Crack the door, pear with the TIC, tell the engine which way, move in, tear azz down the hallway like a raped ape, open up, push into the room, take a beating, and put the g-d dam'nd fire out. If its too intense you will most likey have to operate from a distance, hitting and moving in close enough to do any damage to the fire.

    Here is a link to a couple of recent fires in the Bronx.....you tell me if your current tactics will work.....(a forum member here took this shots, NDemarse....you rubber... )
    http://www.nycfire.net/gallery1/FDNY06-09
    http://www.nycfire.net/gallery1/FDNY06-07
    Last edited by VinnieB; 03-25-2006 at 01:26 PM.
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    OK - in my fire district there is only 1 "mid-rise" building. (6 stories) It has a Class II standpipe system. Inch and a half plumbing, and inch and a half hose for occupant use. The occupants won't be flowing any water because they are all elderly. Building is of fire-resistant concrete construction, with an alarm system, but NO sprinklers.

    I'm leaning toward 2" for hi-rise packs. Can't really see the logic in putting 3" on a 1 1/2" outlet.

    We've had 2 serious fires in this building. Both were contained to the apartment of origin with 1 1/2" hi-rise packs off the standpipe, But the 1 1/2" hose just makes me a little nervous.

    Any suggestions?
    Last edited by MEAN15; 03-25-2006 at 03:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEAN15
    OK - in my fire disrtict there is only 1 "mid-rise" building. (6 stories) It has a Class II standpipe system. Inch and a half plumbing, and inch and a half hose for occupant use. The occupants won't be flowing any water because they are all elderly. Building is of fire-resistant concrete construction, with an alarm system, but NO sprinklers.

    I'm leaning toward 2" for hi-rise packs. Can't really see the logic in putting 3" on a 1 1/2" outlet.

    We've had 2 serious fires in this building. Both were contained to the apartment of origin with 1 1/2" hi-rise packs off the standpipe, But the 1 1/2" hose just makes me a little nervous.

    Any suggestions?
    Wow. All I can say is that you guys must be using some crazy fire code there. Can your Fire Marshal or Buildings dept determine what the designed flow(at a certain pressure) should be for that system...that might help you determine what hose to use. If you can get 250 gpm (unlikely) at 70-80 psi at the valve then switch to

    Or a simple thing to do is get a flow meter and for the daily drill go to the 6th floor stretch to the roof and flow off the standpipe...this will give you the worst case flow (assuming you don't have PRVs, -shouldn't on 6 stories) and you can make some educated decsions based on that.

    I would use the biggest hose your system will allow or set up your Engines for a backstretch from the hydrant. You would have to team up the 1st and 2nd Due Engines for this task.

    FTM-PTB

    PS- You don't have to be high up in a high-rise to get killed... A standpipe is a standpipe on the 3rd floor or the 73rd floor.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-25-2006 at 03:06 PM.

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    Fire code? What's a Fire Code?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM
    Fires don't burn any different in NYC than they do in LA or in my 'burg.

    No, but the buildings are different. We dont have any city block x city block, 50 storie buildings with closed hallways here. If we did, we would have 2 1/2" in our packs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator

    Different Focus. Different Mindset. Different Gear.
    First off let me say this: I was in no way limiting my post soley to you. There are many others who are trying to defend their lazy 1.75" will do, cause its easier, approach. What other excuse is there? You don't want more water? It's too heavy? We don't have enough firefighters? BS! Get with the program and modify you operation to fit what we (the fire service as a whole) have learned!

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    PS... This policy was develop and equipment selected by our very experienced Chief Officers. I trusted thier judgement and understood that the equipment they selected mirrored the SOPs they developed for this type of firefighting.
    Sometimes you must have a reality check on "very experienced chief officers". I've had some too. Some thought that because they'd never killed anybody using booster lines, that we should pull them first everytime. Same guys who called us sissies for using SCBA. Too often departments get blind to anything outside their little world. Never having an LODD doesn't mean it can't or won't happen.

    I understand what you're saying about searching with the line vs. attacking the fire, but I just disagree I guess. If the first line off can't handle the fire it doesn't matter what its assignment. You jumping in the fire floor out gunned? Or worse going above? I'd still rather have the 2.5" first going to the fire area to get control while we search without a line. If we can have a 1.75" line second, great!

    I'm glad what you've done has worked for you, and hopefully it always will. But at some point many of us have to admit there are lessons to be learned from the big city that apply right here in Podunk. And operating from standpipes is one of them.

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    Vinnie ...

    The department I am referring to is my former department in Vermont (1988-2002), and the tallest structure was a couple of 5 story hotels (sprinklered) and several 4 story hotels, office buildings and college dorms. We did have a 75' Mack Aerialscope (ex-FDNY by the way), purchased in 1991 just after the building boom started, which means technically those structures are not high rises, except fot the backside (5 story side) of the 2 hotels (which has been part of my point all along). In 2002 they purchased a 95' Stuphen Tower. We also ran automatic mutual aid to 1 10 story senior citizen apartment complex not fitted with standpipes, and some 4 story commerical and residental structures fitted with both sprinklers and a standpipe system.

    We had never had a fire worth mentioning in any of these structures in our district, with the exception of the dorms. To the best of my knowledge we had 3 in the 20 years ... 2 of them were extingushed with sprinklers prior to our arrival and the 3rd was on the 3rd floor successfully extingushed with a 1.5" line streched up a ladder through an adjoining window. I personally have worked 5 or 6 fires in buildings between 3 and 5 stories (primarily MA), which would qualify as very limited experience, and while I do not doubt your discription of the fires in high rise fires you have rolled to, my experience does not mirror that. Part of the reason was design and building materials used. For that reason, the command staff's decison to design our high rise packs as they chose them did not concern me.

    The department I am currently on in Louisiana had nothing above a single story, so hence no high rise packs.

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    Hey LA, not to undermine you at all bro, but...

    Tactics are changing rapidly. RIT crews are in place on fire scenes in short periods of time, departments are certifying all members in high and low angle rope rescue, HazMat, and other forms of tech rescue. The "new" training is changing how everyone operates. Things are growing rapidly, and tactics are changing with them.

    The changes are being brought on fast, and pretty soon, Chittenden County for the most part will be full-time combination departments. Many departments are starting to listen to the "big boys" when it comes to tactics and training.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
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