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  1. #61
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    Was up there just a few months ago and noticed the primary high-rise packs were still 1.75" lines.

    The department I was referring to (and you know which one it is) has been very progressive since the early 90's and has adopted many of the newer "big city" techniques including RIT. The confined space/trench/high-angle/water-ice-dive work in that town is handled by the EMS agency with some assistance from the other FD in town that has much more water exposure than we did, and while we trained in support ops, there was never much interest to get heavily envolved as they did it very well. They have even become somewhat more envolved in EMS first response, though at this point, at the direction of the EMS transport agency, it's still fairly limited. We did and would assume we still do keep very much up with the times and were open to new ideas and concepts .. after they were tested to make sure they would work for us in our situation (staffing, construction types, etc.). In fact, we were one of the first departments to have a standarized 45 hour course that was required for all new members before they stepped on the fireground way back in the mid-80's. That program has now been expeanded to all of the departments in the northern end of the county, as well as several departments in other counties.

    I agree that everyone should read up on what other departments are doing, buit some of the tactics used by the big boys are simply not applicable everywhere else. Most volunteer and I would also suspect MOST fire departments in general, unless in a large metro area, gets 4 engines, 2 trucks, and a squad each manned with 5 firefighters (guessing in FDNY that's about 30-35 people, others in may be more or less) on a first alarm assignment. With that kind of manpower they can shape thier tactics (and setup thier packs) to ATTACK the fire ,,, our tactics were (and apprently still are based on the 1.75" still in the packs) are to attack if the sprinkler system is functioning or the fire is manageble ... if not it was to simply search and contain the fire if possible. It's not that we were ignoring standards, but simply building our packs what we are going to be doing based on the expected manpower and thier experience level. There was a 2.5" available if the tactics changed or manpower was increased.

    I do disagree with your opinion though that most of Chittenden County will have paid firefighters soon. Most of the departments want to very much hang on to the vollie tradition, and based on the fact that they are able to maintain very high membership levels (some even have waiting lists), I only see SBFD going in that direction anytime soon. This is especially true given the number of automatic mutual aid pacts (CCVFC/MBFD/WINFD & WILFD/EFD/EJFD as examples) being used very effectivly to deal with daytime manpower issues. At this point the vollie departments seem to be handling the load just fine .. and it's certainly my hope that it will stay that way for a long time.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-26-2006 at 08:42 PM.


  2. #62
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    I hear ya LA, and the 1.75 is still very common in Chit-Co. All I'm saying is that as departments are getting more progessive, 2 1.75" aren't getting pulled, more often you see the manpower going to pull a 2.5, and having an extra guy or two , as well as the bigger line in service.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    I do disagree with your opinion though that most of Chittenden County will have paid firefighters soon. Most of the departments want to very much hang on to the vollie tradition, and based on the fact that they are able to maintain very high membership levels (some even have waiting lists), I only see SBFD going in that direction anytime soon. This is especially true given the number of automatic mutual aid pacts (CCVFC/MBFD/WINFD & WILFD/EFD/EJFD as examples) being used very effectivly to deal with daytime manpower issues. At this point the vollie departments seem to be handling the load just fine .. and it's certainly my hope that it will stay that way for a long time.
    Shelburne is going career soon enough.
    South Burlington "recently" added more positions.
    Rumor is that Burlington is going for more positions soon.
    Williston has / is getting more positions.

    Quite a few surveys have been going around, researching the ability to go to a career service. A few of the FDs are looking to pull out of the college / seperate EMS service, and take over, with a full time crew that does fire and EMS. We'll see, as time goes on. Things sure are growing fast up there though, and getting alot more interesting.

    The waiting list sure is an interesting tidbit though, especially up in that area. Every other part of the state is "hurting" for volunteers, although services generally aren't that bad off, with a good membership base of 25-30 members. The waiting list is going to be a pain once I'm living up there all the time. Going to try to get my name in early. Kind of worried that I won't be able to vollie at all while living in S. Burlington. I can't necessarily join SBFD, due to a conflict of interest that may be present, y'know?

    BTW: Shelburne is out right now. Williston, Shelburne, S Burlington, Burlington, both of the Essex's I believe..
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  3. #63
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    343
    (guessing in FDNY that's about 30-35 people, others in may be more or less) on a first alarm assignment. With that kind of manpower they can shape thier tactics (and setup thier packs) to ATTACK the fire ,,, our tactics were (and apprently still are based on the 1.75" still in the packs) are to attack if the sprinkler system is functioning or the fire is manageble ... if not it was to simply search and contain the fire if possible. It's not that we were ignoring standards, but simply building our packs what we are going to be doing based on the expected manpower and thier experience level. There was a 2.5" available if the tactics changed or manpower was increased.

    You guys need to stop guessing about us. (sorry...not pointing fingers at you LA)

    The first line is put into place by the first due company. The first due companies....11 to12 Men....are all we have right away. We don't wait for ALL of the initial alarm companies to arrive to go into action. Every High Rise job I have been to, First Due Eng and Lad were the only ones pushing into the apt......remember that everyone else has to walk up too. So that means.....4 men carry up 4 lengths, hook up, and flow water.....The ECC usually hooks up by himself too.....unless 2d Due is real close.
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    ______________
    Last edited by sfd2605; 03-17-2008 at 08:08 PM.

  5. #65
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    343 ...

    3 years ago when I left, Milton and Winooski fire had waiting lists, and possibly Malletts Bay. I didn't know of any other. Essex Town sometimes does because they are limited to 30 members. If you need any info on any of the departments in the northern end of the county just ding me and I'll tell ya what I know.

    I'm surprised that Shelburne is hiring some FT staff, but not too surprised by Williston, though I'm sure it's just minimal coverage. Burlington is always looking to add positions as last I knew they were running 2 man crews on 3 of thier engines and a 2 man crew on the tower, which was often dropped to 1 if the 2nd man was needed as a full-in at another company.

    I know last time I was up there I noticed that Colchester Center bought 2" with thier new engine as the primary attack line. I had used that about 18 years ago with Essesx Town and then some when I first joined the Center 3 years later, but because of it's bulkiness, both departments were phasing it out and replacing it with 1.75". Personnally I don't like it as it's too bulky for interior ops with a 2 man attack team (usual daytime size), but it's interesting to see how things come back around.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-28-2006 at 08:09 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd2605
    All these suggestions are great but your high rise pack should fit the needs of the area in which you cover

    The arguement is that many of you are not seeing is that "fitting your needs" is BS! If you're connecting to a standpipe system your needs are the same as mine as they're the same in NYC. The "needs" assessment is being based on the wrong variables. It should be based on enough flow to handle the fire, not the number of available firefighters (would-be victims) on a first due engine.

    Our high rise packs on every truck are all the same. We have a primary and a secondary both are equipped with 200 feet of light weight 1 3/4 hose the primary however has a 10' 2 1/2 inch pony to hook to the standpipe which on the end of that has a 2 1/2 to 1 1/2 gated wye. Though i am a fan of smooth bore nozzles our high rise packs have akron pistol grip fogs.

    The issue isn't whether you like fog or SB, its that fog has too many down sides. First if you use fog it better be "low pressure" and not a 100 psi nozzle. Second, due to the lack of use of the systems you can expect alot a crap in the pipes which will clog the fog.

    The reason we use 1 3/4 is like i said we are a small department we dont have many bodies to menuver a hose therefore we use the smaller of attack lines. As i mentioned before we use bags the primary can be quite heavy but isnt that bad cause of the light weight hose.

    The shortage of firefighters is an issue in most places. It is not an excuse to put the brothers in harms way by sending them in outgunned. Team up Co.s and get the first line in place. If you're like us and short staffed you can't afford to have any brothers laid up.
    Often times the right way and the easy way are not the same way!

  7. #67
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    This is going to be my last post on this issue.

    RFD ....

    This is not meant as a slam but as a point of information. One more than one occasion in these forums I have seen some of your FDNY brothers say, when refering to NFPA standards, that "things are different here and those standards don't fit our needs". If you doubt me, look back at the recent thread on mounting of tools in the cab. Well, I'm sorry bro... If you are going to pick and choose standards as they apply and don't apply to your operation, then please don't lecture anyone else on adopting standards to thier enviroment. Your department beleives in and uses smoothbores daily, and that's fine, for you. However, most departments in this country don't have a clue about smoothbores, and if they even own them, they sit in a cabinet somewhere for the sole purpose of being on the rigs when ISO comes to call. That's just the way it is. Many departments rarely if ever pull a 2.5", no matter what size the fire is. They may or may not train on them. That's just the way it is. Departments operate differently and wether you like it or not, you need to accept it. Tactics are based on a lot of things, and your brothers are very fond of using the word tradition when discussing tactics. Well other departments have tradtions as well, and often they do not include can-men and smoothbores and 2.5" lines and searching above the fire. If you can base some of your ops on your traditions.. then you can't say they can't.

    My only points here is that if your brothers (and not pointing to you in particuliar) can say that some of the standards don't work here because we're diffrent, don't throw stones at those who say the same thing, and remember that there are departments that do not operate like you do. They don't have your skills, experience, don't beleive in some of the equipment you do (smoothbores as an example) and will always do it the way they feel comfortable doing it. It's just the way it is.

    Again this is not a slam against the FDNY or any of it's members. Just a slam against double standards.

  8. #68
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Our one existing "standpipe" is a 1" pipe that goes 3 stories. With only 1" pipe, do I really have to use 2 1/2" hose to travel the 75' the hallway may stretch?

    Always and Never. Two words that don't hold true in the fire service.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Our one existing "standpipe" is a 1" pipe that goes 3 stories. With only 1" pipe, do I really have to use 2 1/2" hose to travel the 75' the hallway may stretch?

    Always and Never. Two words that don't hold true in the fire service.
    I would just stretch from the street...using a standpipe that is 1" is a sure way to get you into the wrong side of a NIOSH report. Just because some half wit allowed this 1" pipe to be considered legally a standpipe doesn't mean it is a true standpipe.

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  10. #70
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    Lets get a few things stated so there is no confusion.

    1. It takes 4 men to advance a 2 1/2" from a stairwell. Not 30-35 or whatever number you guys want to focus on. 4 How many of you small Dept guys can't muster 4 men? You say how can that happen in NYC with 4 Engines on the 1st alarm that one would only have 4 men to stretch and operate...here is the senario:

    Engine 55 is 1st Due and takes the elevator to the 15th floor (fire on the 17th) The elevator malfunctions and won't return to the 1st floor...guess what...everyone else has to hump up the stairs! Eng 24,7, 9 Lad 20, 8 & might be all there standing in the lobby all 20 + men...but now it will be at least 10 mintues or more before they get to the 16th floor. Happens more than you think.

    And if 4 of your guys don't have the strength or endurance to hump 2 1/2" either get in the gym or find another line of work. You took a physical blue collar job and you shouldn't be making c*nty excuses about how heavy a hose is. Stop embarasing yourself and your company and be a man.

    2. Oakland, Denver, Some FDs in Florida and numerous others use 2 1/2" hose as well and have much lower staffing levels than we do. Why only bring up FDNY?

    3.The FDNY doesn't blindly follow the NFPA. We do what we do and if it happens to jive with the NFPA then great. We aren't the ones who put stock in the NFPA...almost everyone of the guys who supports using small diameter hose is also an ardent supporter of the NFPA thats why we bring up the NFPA 14 issue for your consideration...we aren't the ones picking a choosing which NFPA rules we follow.

    And furthermore complaining that we don't follow NFPA XXXX on whatever issue still doesn't change the fact that most Standpipes were built to meet NFPA 14 and the pressures associated with the system...they were designed to use 2 1/2" with smoothbores.

    That's all I can say for now...I'm astounded at the ignorance from the safety susies out there.

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  11. #71
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    I would just stretch from the street
    We do.

    I'll stick with the last lines of my previous post.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  12. #72
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    LAFIRE:
    First: I'm not from the FDNY. Never have worked there, never will. have a few freinds that work there and I appreciate the knowledge that they and our other Brothers there impart on those of us who might not do quite as many runs. When I say Brothers, I include you too and anyone else who chooses to partake in the Battle with the Red Dragon.

    Second: I didn't say anything about NFPA but clearly now that you mention it there is a huge differnce. NFPA standards regarding firefighting practices are fo rth most point non-mandatory suggested guidelines. Very few states (if any) adopt them all in their entirity. Yet, NFPA 101 and other related building , Life Safety, and Fire Protection Features codes are most often adopted as law. Therefore my point is that yes, NFPA 14 does regulate standpipes and most often they'll be built to their standards. What are the standpipes in your area built to? Does the code specify that they must provide 100psi at the furthest outlet? I don't see any picking and choosing of which NFPA standards to follow. You don't have much choice if NFPA codes are adpoted as law, but those that area not give you the option to use a little more common sense. Of course they'll be brought up when you're trial for something, but thats another matter.

    FFFRED: many folks can't get past the Left for Life B.S! Up here we call it Left for Lobster!

  13. #73
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    First off....this is a blanket statment....not ment for anyone inperticular...unless you think 1.75 w/ Fog is an ok high rise pack...for Class 1 or 2 High Rises.

    Ditto to what FFRED said.....4 members to hump the line up. 1 member stay at the floor below to regulate the pressure, another stay at the door to help feed line, and 2 to operate the nozzle, 1 nozzleman and 1 back up man. If the engine is only a 4 man engine...then eliminate the door position....and that leaves...only 2 men to advance a 2.5" down the hallway.


    Now.....For the most part I could care less what you do if the building is less than 75'. For that...even if the building has a standpipe....i would just stretch up the interior stairs....but thats just us.

    As for my 1st due response area....we have atleast 40 highrise residential buildings (projects) that range from 10 stories (most common is 14 stories) to 30 stories. And fires are common in them. So my experiance is based on my own first hand experiance and knowledge and everything that has been passed down to me by my senior men. Not to mention that high rise fires are not new to us, we have been fighting fires in the buildings on a regular basis since the Flat Iron Building was built. We have killed members by using 1.75" lead lengths. You can get away with it up to about the 6th or 7th floor. But to fight a fire in a real deal high rise.....such as the 16th floor, 25th floor, or as in the Empire State Building in the 90s...75th Floor....you are going to need 2.5" . And if you are fighting a fire in a Class 1 or 2 building that happens to be in a high wind area.....good luck using you 1.75" with Fog tip. 150 or 180 GPM will just not cut it in a wind swept hallway of a building of this type. You have to remember that ventilation is near impossible in a class 1 or 2 building. It all just goes into the hallway, you can't cut the floor above, and you can't cut the roof. That leaves the attack stairs and roof bulkhead as your best options. Again....take a look at this recent fire at Tracy Towers in the Bronx. If you can tell me that 1.75" will work on this job...then I'll plant a big, wet, kiss on ya'

    http://www.nycfire.net/gallery1/FDNY06-09

    For your next drill. See if you can LOAD up your burn building like a regular apt would be, and I mean don't hold back, furniture, rugs, full clothes dressers, etc....everything you would find in a normal apt...then Light it up....turn on a PPV fan and direct it into a window opposite the hose line. Use you 1.75" line w/ fog tip....and advance on the fire. That's the only way I think you can simulate this type of fire....and when (if) you get out of the burn center...you can tell me how it went......I hope no one actually tries this....just sit here and look at the pic I posted...and ponder.


    When I hear high rise....I am expecting a building thats over 75'....not one that is 40'. Isn't easier and more efficiant to stretch from the street on a building that is only 40' (or so) tall? Fire is on the second floor.....are you going to hook up to the 1st floor S/P? And why?

    PS....here is a little know fact. 1 engine Company can only control 2500SqFt of fire in a high rise building and that's using a 2.5" flowing 300 gpm.
    Last edited by VinnieB; 03-28-2006 at 08:53 PM.
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    Vinnie ...

    That has been one of my major points all along .... the buildings were would be using these packs on are not true high rises at all. They are a maximum of 5 stories, with most being 3 or 4. To us they were "high-rises", but certainly not high rises in the tru sense of the word. These packs were also intended to be used on the standpipes of our "wide-rises" as well.

    In the cases of the college dorms, before they were retrofitted with sprinkler systems they had no standpipes and we did stretch line up the stairwell. In fact, we even experimented with the strectching of 4" up the stairwells, which actually proved fairly successful if we had the manpower. Another common practice was for us to use the aerial as a standpipe at one end of the hall and stretch lines through the end room down the hallway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Vinnie ...

    That has been one of my major points all along .... the buildings were would be using these packs on are not true high rises at all. They are a maximum of 5 stories, with most being 3 or 4. To us they were "high-rises", but certainly not high rises in the tru sense of the word. These packs were also intended to be used on the standpipes of our "wide-rises" as well.

    In the cases of the college dorms, before they were retrofitted with sprinkler systems they had no standpipes and we did stretch line up the stairwell. In fact, we even experimented with the strectching of 4" up the stairwells, which actually proved fairly successful if we had the manpower......

    I see your point LA. But I agree w/ FFRED 110% about not trusting the sprinkler systems.

    This is my biggest teaching point I have been using for a long time. Get the first line inplace properly by the easiest means possible. To stretch 4" hose up stairwells takes a lot of people. I know that the stairwells I have been in....2 full dressed FF barely fit. Now put Smoke, heat, its 2am and fleeing civilians into the mix. There have been a few times that I have had to utilize the locals comming down the stairs to help me stretch b/c there are so many people trying to get out that getting up to the fire floor is hard to do. I couldn't even fathom the resources and time needed to place 4" line in a stairwell. 4 men should be plenty to stretch up to 10 lengths of hose. OR....there is the ole' rope bottle out the window trick....and well hole stretch that will significantly cut down on the amount of lengths required for a stretch.


    Another common practice was for us to use the aerial as a standpipe at one end of the hall and stretch lines through the end room down the hallway
    ACK!!!! This tactic should really not be used for an initial line unless....you have no interior stairs, or the main means on ingress is blocked...for some wierd reason.....but that is another thread.
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    Ok Vinnie, now you have peaked my curosity and I just can't wait for another thread .... Why was it a bad idea to use to use the Tower as an exterior standpipe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Ok Vinnie, now you have peaked my curosity and I just can't wait for another thread .... Why was it a bad idea to use to use the Tower as an exterior standpipe?
    100 ft. of hose, a utility rope and something to tie off to are about $844,500 cheaper.

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    Using the bucket to supply the attack line leaves the bucket unavailable for rescues, both of civilians and possibly the FF's themselves. Of course, IF you had other ladders/buckets available and in place, that is of less concern.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Automatic mutual aid brought 1 additional aerial to any working fires in the particuliar dorms, with a 3rd automatically dispatched if the call came in as working fire or first unit on scene reported a working fire. 2 additional aerials would be available with 10-12 minutes if needed, for a total of 5.

    That's why it was not an issue to commit 1 aerial to that function. The primary plan was for use to stretch the 3" supply line up the stairwell. The 4" was simply a backup plan if there as a large voume of fire which required a line stretched to the floor above or below as well as the fire floor, and was very dependant on manpower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
    Ok Vinnie, now you have peaked my curosity and I just can't wait for another thread .... Why was it a bad idea to use to use the Tower as an exterior standpipe?
    This is taught in every major text out there that addresses the issue that I've read. Do some research. I also doubt they are teaching this at FHEXPO or FDIC...anyone who have taken the HOT know for sure. There is more than enough experience out there to justify not using this procedure. Think about all the logistics behind breaking windows...company would more than likely have to come from the inside to pick out the room nearest the stairs and then stretch from there into the stairs and up to the next floor. This involves searching for the right room...forcing a few doors and then cleaning out a window completely and then stretching anywhere from 4 to 6+ lengths to the fire apartment(s).

    How many times has yours or other departments experimented with this procedure and how does it compare to a rope stretch or hand stretch?

    In the same amount of time it takes to perform this evolution you could have done it via another method and you haven't tied up one aerial at all.

    As for commiting an aerial and waiting up to 10-12 mintues for another...that is as unrealistic as anything I've ever seen written on here. Someone appears at a window ready to jump and the only ladder which can reach that window is tied up...if they are already panicing do you think they will wait?

    PS-To everyone...there is a decent article in Fire Engineering this month (MARCH 2006) regarding stanpipe operations.
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-30-2006 at 01:27 PM.

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