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  1. #1
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    Default High Rise Packs ?

    I am looking to recreate my departments highrise packs and wanted to know what others opinions were.
    What do your highrise pack consist of?
    Are you using bags or straps to secure your HR packs?
    What do you all think is best?

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  2. #2
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    Best is 2 1/2 inch hose with 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 smoothbore tip. Our engines have 3 lengths 2 1/2 folded into individual horseshoes held with velcro straps and a tool bag with shoulder strap that contains: nozzle, 2 1/2 inline pressure gauge, pipe wrench, spanners, wire brush to clean rusty standpipes, visegrip, spare standpipe valve handle, 45 degree elbow and door chocks. I think thats all, someone will chime in if I forgot anything.

  3. #3
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Im not sure I completely understand the question, but here goes:

    4 rolled lengths of 2 1/2" hose with 1 1/8" MST

    In a bag, that the control man ( The guy who stays at the standpipe outlet) carries:
    Spanner wrench
    extra operating wheel
    adapters
    Pipe wrench 18"
    Guages
    Nozzles
    Chocks.

    These are basically what every engine carries, but each company adds or changes certain things based on their response area.

    Forgot the wire brush, good one.

    Our rolled lengths are held together by the same straps that everyone makes for their helmets, or seatbelt type straps, from a backboard. Both work well, but sometimes the regular straps are a pain in the ***, and we usually end up cutting them when we need them.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 02-17-2006 at 01:12 PM.

  4. #4
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    there are two lines of thought here.

    the FDNY and othe big city guys will say use a 200 feet of 2 1/2 inch hose with a smoothbore nozzle.

    the rest of the world will say use 200 feet of 1 3/4 hose with a fog nozzle.

    My first department had bags, they were a pain in the butt to use and pack. My new one has straps. I would definately go with straps, much easier.

    for more info, do a search.
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  5. #5
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Default

    Wow...only 4 posts on the subject and already someone is trying to stir the sh*t.


    This thread was not created (assumption here, but whatever) to cause a friggin debate! He simply asked what everyone uses. If you want to post jackass comments, do it on a thread that already went down the crapper.


    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?p=640893#post64 0893

    And just for those who think this is an FDNY or big city thing: http://fe.pennnet.com/articles/artic...S=Comella&p=25

    In February 1991, the Philadelphia (PA) Fire Department had a disastrous experience dealing with a fire in the One Meridian Plaza building. At the time, the Philadelphia Fire Department used 13/4-inch hose and automatic fog nozzles for standpipe operations. At numerous sessions of the Fire Department Instructors Conference (FDIC) Engine Company Operations Class, Denver (CO) Fire Department Battalion Chief David McGrail replicated the outlet pressures (40-45 psi) that existed at the One Meridian Plaza fire. Consistently, 13/4-inch hose with an automatic tip flows less than 50 gpm while 21/2-inch line with a 11/8-inch tip achieves flows in the range of 200 to 210 gpm. This concurs with information found in Fornell's Fire Stream Management Handbook. The building eventually was demolished. The loss of the building, however, is inconsequential when compared with the loss of three members of the Philadelphia Fire Department. The tragic loss of these members was caused in no small part by poor weapons selection. The Philadelphia Fire Department now uses 21/2-inch hose and 11/8-inch smooth-bore nozzles for standpipe operations. Hopefully, it will not take more tragedies of this nature for other departments to rethink their weapons selection for standpipe operations.
    Proper consideration for members' safety demands the use of 21/2-inch hose and smooth-bore nozzles for standpipe operations. NFPA 14, Standard for Standpipe Systems, was developed based on the use of 150 feet of 21/2-inch hose equipped with a 11/8-inch smooth-bore nozzle. Depending on which of the two versions of the standard a given standpipe system was de-signed under, outlet pressures can be either 65 psi (old criteria) or 100 psi (new criteria). Outlet pressures such as these simply will not meet the friction loss requirements for smaller-diameter hose, especially in conjunction with 75-psi or 100-psi nozzles.
    Many standpipe systems have pressure-reducing valves that are not field-adjust-able. This means that no matter what pressure fire department pumpers pump into the system, outlet pressure will not rise above a given outlet's rated pressure. As Fire Department of New York Battalion Chief John Norman states in Fire Officer's Handbook of Tactics (Fire Engineering, 1998), to use anything other than 21/2-inch hose and smooth-bore nozzles for standpipe operations is to use the standpipe system in a manner other than that for which it was designed. Prior to becoming a member of the professional fire service, Norman was a fire protection engineer and made his living designing sprinkler and standpipe systems.
    All quotes from the linked article.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 02-17-2006 at 01:41 PM.

  6. #6
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Ours is made up of 2" lite-weight hose, 3" lite-weight hose a 75psi TFT nozzle, a lite-weight gated wye, 2 Milwaukee (sp?) strapes and an equipment bag.

    One strape holds a 100' section of 2" and the nozzle. The second strape holds another 100' section of 2", the wye and a 10' section of 3". The equipment bag holds spanners, wrenches, fittings and chocks.

    We set it up this way to divide the load between two FF's. When we go into a hi-rise, one FF carries the one strape and the irons and the other carries the second strape and the bag. The 3" is hooked to the standpipe and the wye lays on the floor and the 2" is connected to one side. This leaves the other side of the wye for incomming companies.

    We use 2" hose as it gives us more GPM then 1 3/4" without being manpower intensive like 2 1/2". I would prefer a solid bore nozzle, but untill Im Chief, I guess it will be the TFT. Then again, I feel the same way about our pre-connect nozzles.

    As for 2 1/2" and solid v fog. All but one of our hi-rise buildings are "open hallway" design. All are CBC construction. All are "compartmentized". We do not have city block x city block size hi-rises. We do not have any over 12 stories. All are residential. Most are sprinklered. None have reducing valves in the standpipes. We do not have a problem with vandals. All systems are tested and certified on a regualr basis.

    If this is not the case in your area, a serious look at 2 1/2" /solid bore nozzles is recomended.

    If you would like a photo of our set up, send me an e-mail.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 02-17-2006 at 02:58 PM.
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  7. #7
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    My F.D. carries the following in our highrise compartment:

    150' 1.75" DJ w/ 15/16" Smooth Bore secured w/ old Backboard Straps and some sort of cheap vinyl cover to wrap and protect hose in the compartment.

    6' Piece of 3" Hose to Connect to Standpipe with a 2.5" x (2) 1.5" Wye on the end of the hose (We found this easier because the wye is on the floor and easier connect in a smoky environment).

    Over the shoulder bag with the following:

    Spanners
    Bolt Cutters
    Wood Chocks
    Pipe Wrench
    Adapters
    (1) Piece of Sidewalk Chalk (in a Sharps Shuttle)
    (1) Strobe/LED Light to mark stairwell entrance
    Laminated Accountability Sheet with an Attached Grease Pencil (One officer monitors companies working on the fire floor).

    I think that is all we have in our highrise kit. Note: This is only for our engine companies. Our ladders carry a different complement of tools.

    rfd599
    www.IllinoisFireStore.com

  8. #8
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    We use 150' of 1 3/4" hose with a low pressure Chief nozzle that has a 15/16" in the shut off.
    I would go with 2 1/2" with a smooth bore.
    All of our "high rises" are residential so we havent been pinched YET, but some day it will happen. The flow we get from the fog is OK for the average room or two in an appartment.
    If given the choice I would not take a knife to a gun fight.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    there are two lines of thought here.

    the FDNY and othe big city guys will say use a 200 feet of 2 1/2 inch hose with a smoothbore nozzle.

    the rest of the world will say use 200 feet of 1 3/4 hose with a fog nozzle.
    Hopefully what youre trying to say is that the "big city" guys are right and the rest of the people that persist that it isnt necessary are wrong.

    They advocate this arrangment because it works....period. Many places insist on maintaining 1 1/2 and 1 3/4" hose packs. Since they are almost never used for true standpipe evolutions, it never becomes an issue. We have 2" hose, I'd be happier with 2 1/2" but I'm, not the decision maker.

  10. #10
    Forum Member HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
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    No, I'm not saying one group is right while the other is wrong. Don't try to put me in the middle of an arguement, I can do that all on my own.

    all I am saying is that different groups do things differently. I'll let thsoe who have more experience with highrise fires duke it out.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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  11. #11
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    Hopefully what youre trying to say is that the "big city" guys are right and the rest of the people that persist that it isnt necessary are wrong.
    So, since 2" works for the buildings we cover (and yes, we do have fires in them) we are wrong for not useing 2 1/2".

    I dont get that.
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  12. #12
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    Not that I necessarly like what we do but here it is. We use 200' of 1 3/4'' with a fog nozzle which is all held together with backboard straps. In a separate bag we carry about 6' of 3'' hose to hook to the standpipe, a gated wye, spanner wrenches and a few little odds and ends. Unfortionately one person normally carries all of this. We have to use 200' of hose to reach all the rooms, no matter what stairwell you come from. We also get away with using 1 3/4'' because at this time our tallest building is only 4 stories. If it were my choice or if I had to recommend a set up, I would say go with 2'' or 2 1/2'' with a smoothbore. Erick being that you all ride 4 to an eng and who knows how many when you all get your tower in, you do have the luxury of breaking it down into 2 straps or rolls like a few other people mentioned earlier.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber cowtown's Avatar
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    We currently use a "high-rise pack" setup w/ 100' of lightwt 1.75 hose w/ a low-press break aprt combo nozzle, 1 - 2.5 & 1.75" water thief, 1-6' section of 2.5", and a tool bag w/ pipe wrench, spanners, adapters, door chocks and duct tape for marking doors.

    The idea being that the first two co's on-scene will make up the attack team and combine their hose .

    They (the powers that be) are considering going to the 2.5" roll-up style w/ a separate tool bag so all components can be carried up by the entire crew . The roll-ups will be in a strap w/ handle contraption.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite
    No, I'm not saying one group is right while the other is wrong. Don't try to put me in the middle of an arguement, I can do that all on my own.

    all I am saying is that different groups do things differently. I'll let thsoe who have more experience with highrise fires duke it out.
    Gotcha. So you basically lit the fuse and ran away......and won't share your input.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    So, since 2" works for the buildings we cover (and yes, we do have fires in them) we are wrong for not useing 2 1/2".

    I dont get that.
    If you feel it works, then who am I to question you... I guess. I will, however, suggest your nozzle choice is wrong. Unless it is a breakapart type. You may have a low pressure nozzle, but if you have no way of opening it up to get debris out of it, then you are setting up to be in a bad position. Our inspectors routinely find knockouts and other debris on piping when doing flow tests...stuff that can easily make its way into a nozzle.

    2" to me, is a compromise. I would use it, but not if I had the choice otherwise.
    Last edited by MG3610; 02-19-2006 at 10:15 AM.

  16. #16
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    Just to lay out some figures that help paint the picture better, I did some hose calculations (approximate figures)



    EACH LIST SHOWS 3 STANDPIPE OUTLET PRESSURES (NOT FDC PRESSURES) REQUIRED FOR THE 3 CATEGORIES OF COMMON NOZZLES. FIRST IS FOR 100 PSI NOZZLE, SECOND IS FOR 75 PSI NOZZLE AND THIRD S FOR 50 PSI NOZZLE. ALL REFER TO TIP PRESSURE REQUIRED BY NOZZLE TO ACHEIVE SPECIFIED FLOW.

    A 100 PSI NOZZLE INCLUDES MOST AUTOMATICS (TFT, ELKHART, AKROMATIC), SOME AKRON ASSAULT MODELA, MOST SELECTABLE GALLONAGE NOZZLES, MOST KK SERIES NOZZLES ETC

    A 75 PSI NOZZLE INCLUDES ELKHART CHIEF SERIES, TFT DUAL PRESSURE AUTOMATICS, AKRON ASSAULTS, TFT METRO SERIES ETC.

    A 50 PSI NOZZLE INCLUDES ALL SMOOTH BORES (7/8"=150 GPM, 1"=200 GPM, 1 1/8"=250 GPM), ELKHART CHIEF SERIES, TFT METRO SERIES, TFT DUAL PRESURE AUTOMATICS ETC.

    For 1 1/2" hose, you need the following standpipe outlet pressures...
    150 GPM at 150 feet
    -179 PSI
    -154 PSI
    -129 PSI

    200 GPM at 150 feet
    -244 PSI
    -219 PSI
    -194 PSI

    150 GPM at 200 feet
    -208 PSI
    -183 PSI
    -158 PSI

    200 GPM at 200 feet
    -292
    -267
    -242

    For 1 3/4"" hose, you need the following standpipe outlet pressures...

    150 GPM at 150 feet
    -153
    -127
    -102

    200 GPM at 150 feet
    -193
    -168
    -143

    150 GPM at 200 feet
    -170
    -145
    -120

    200 GPM at 200 feet
    -224
    -199
    -174

    For 2"" hose, you need the following Standpipe Outlet Pressures...

    150 GPM at 150 feet
    -127
    -102
    -77

    200 GPM at 150 feet
    -148
    -123
    -98

    150 GPM at 200 feet
    -136
    -111
    -86

    200 GPM at 200 feet
    -164
    -139
    -114

    250 GPM at 150 feet
    -175
    -150
    -125

    250 GPM at 200 feet
    -200
    -175
    -150

    For 2 1/2" hose, you need the following standpipe outlet pressures...
    150 GPM at 150 feet
    -107
    -82
    -57

    200 GPM at 150 feet
    -112
    -87
    -62

    150 GPM at 200 feet
    -110
    -85
    -60

    200 GPM at 200 feet
    -116
    -91
    -66

    250 GPM at 150 feet
    -120
    -95
    -70

    250 GPM at 200 feet
    -126
    -101
    -76

    All figures calculated from Akron Brass friction loss chart and Windows XP calculator.

    If you think I have too much free time, you are wrong. My wife will tell me I could have been doing something around the house instead of this

    With the above data, I'll leave the judgment up to each person to see what their configuration is and if you expect these type of outlet pressures. I always expect to have 40-100 PSI pressures.

    If you understand your nozzles, you know if you use a fixed gallonage (orafice) type nozzle or smooth bore, you can change tip sizes if you keep the spare tips. A fixed gallonage nozzle is good if you have a high flow rated tip (example is 300 GPM @ 100 PSI). Any flow less than 100 PSI at the tip is still average. A 50 PSI tip, this will still flow about 200 GPM.

    Smooth bores are the same. Low outlet presure, bigger tip = more water less reach. Smaller tip = higher reach lower flow. A 1 1/8" tip still flows about 240 GPM at 40 PSI tip pressure.

    Automatics and non-breakapart types hold you hostage to hydraulics unless its a selectable gallonage type. They also hold you hostage when crap clogs the nozzle and you have to shut off the outlet and drain the hose to unplug em.

    So thats my 2 cents....for what it certainly isnt worth to some of ya I'm sure
    Last edited by MG3610; 02-19-2006 at 10:35 AM.

  17. #17
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    If you feel it works, then who am I to question you... I guess. I will, however, suggest your nozzle choice is wrong. Unless it is a breakapart type. You may have a low pressure nozzle, but if you have no way of opening it up to get debris out of it, then you are setting up to be in a bad position. Our inspectors routinely find knockouts and other debris on piping when doing flow tests...stuff that can easily make its way into a nozzle.

    2" to me, is a compromise. I would use it, but mpt if I had the choice otherwise.
    While I understand your point, you need to understand we do not operate under what most departments would consider normal conditions. We have a VERY agressive fire prevention program. Part of this program is to mandate that all standpipe systems in our district are flow tested and flushed once a year.

    In 23 years, I have never hooked up to a system and found any significant debries. A few small particles and rust, which the flush position on the TFT nozzle takes care of. We have also fully tested are standpipe nozzles, simulating what would happen if we did encounter significant debries (actually putting rocks in the nozzle!). Due to the "slide valve" design of the TFTs, we still get operational flow. These tests were done side by side with a smooth bore, and we actually got more GPMs from the clogged TFT then we did the clogged smooth bore, with a much beter stream.

    Our SOG for standpipe opps is to start with 150psi, so your listed pressure for 200' of 2" is well within our capabilities, even allowing for an increase as you move up in a building. We get the same flows with our standpipe set up as we do from the pre-connects we pull on your normal, ground level SFD. In 9 out 10 fires this is more then enough for a SFD, so why would it not be sufficiant for a hi-rise, when you consider our hi-rise buildings our simply elevated SFD's. If we had city block x city block, non compartmentized, non-residential, non-sprinklered, 20+ storie buildings, we would most likely use 2 1/2" and smooth bores.

    Also, if for some reason we ran into a problem, we carry 2 1/2" and solid bores on the rigs, and it could quickly be put into service on a hi-rise if required, same as it would on a SFD.

    Like Ive said, our set up will not work for everyone. Your selection of hose and nozzles should be based on the buildings you cover.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 02-19-2006 at 09:39 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Default Im not taking that to the top floor...

    Quote Originally Posted by RCTalma
    Best is 2 1/2 inch hose with 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 smoothbore tip. Our engines have 3 lengths 2 1/2 folded into individual horseshoes held with velcro straps and a tool bag with shoulder strap that contains: nozzle, 2 1/2 inline pressure gauge, pipe wrench, spanners, wire brush to clean rusty standpipes, visegrip, spare standpipe valve handle, 45 degree elbow and door chocks. I think thats all, someone will chime in if I forgot anything.

    Thats alot of weight. But we are not a big city. Are packs have 150ft of 1 1/2 inch, on a gated wye. Not the big lines but they have alwas worked for us. TFT nozzle with 2 spanners, highrise pipe tool, door jams, chock to mark doors, and a wrench. Another bag has all other hand tools. We got some bags from Fire Store. com and they worked good. Others we made in dept. Wildland backpack type works the best for us.

  19. #19
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    We use 200ft of 1 3/4 with a 6 ft section of 3 on a gated wye. For us the 1 3/4 works for what we use it for. The high rise pack are rarely use in a true high rise situation. Most often they are used with a leader line, since we have a lot of buildings (mostly SFD's) with long set backs or down roads that are to tight for the engine. We are always looking for suggestion to inprove our set ups.

    a couple of questions:

    Does anyone have a in-line pressure gauge in their high rise configuration?
    To measure the pressure at the standpipe outlet.

    Secoundly we use what is called a metro pack for our high rise packs. It enables us to charge the hose in a stairwell or other tight areas. All 200ft will charge on the landing of a stairwell. Does anyone else use this configuration? if not how do you pack your high rise packs

  20. #20
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    Man, we carry two 100' sections of five inch line (wrapped with Italian leather with titanium buckles), with triple 500gpm fog nozzles, 18 spanner wrenches (both metric and standard), a 50 horsepower portable booster pump (with jet-siphon assist), and a water thief (all 5" connections).

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