1. #26
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    Call me old fashion...

    While there is no doubt that IFS in cars and light trucks has done much to improve the ride and handling, I miss the solid axle pickup and am leary of them in heavy trucks simply because there are none out there. Remember it was not all that long ago that Pierce was telling us the All-Steer was the cat's meow. Until there are more trucks on the road with it I'm not willing to be a test subject. Much credit needs to go to Pierce for being on the cutting edge of chassis developement, but some times I think they are pushing too far ahead. E-One has come out with their "Enhanced Ride System" as have other manufacturers which promises everything the IFS does based on a conventional axle which means cheaper and more common parts, especially once things start breaking. Imagine the pickle you may find yourself in trying to get a lower ball joint in 15 years if this technology does not catch on.
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    I think there are more TAK-4's in service than what you think. Oshkosh truck has been putting them in military vehicles for quite a while from what I understand. Then when they bought Pierce....they brought that technology to Pierce and the firetruck industry. I think the majority of the trucks rolling off of the line at Pierce have the TAK-4 in them. Anyone have any numbers or percentages on how many have the IFS vs. non-IFS????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter1244
    I think the majority of the trucks rolling off of the line at Pierce have the TAK-4 in them.
    I don't doubt that Pierce is making a lot of them, but fire trucks as a whole make up far less than 1% of the heavy truck market. I'll be more comfortable with the technology when I see Kenworth and International putting it into a class 8 chassis.

    I just visited the Tak-4 web site and here's a quote:
    Oshkosh has subjected its rugged, patented design to more than 80,000 miles of performance and durability testing in some of the harshest environments and terrains imaginable.
    I hope this is a misprint, cause 80,000 miles is absolutely nothing impressive on a heavy truck. 8 million miles of torture testing might impress me, but 80K, I know guys who drive twice that much in a single year on a single truck.
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    Since NON IFS trucks have been around since truck 1,I would say it's safe to assume that NON IFS trucks outnumber IFS trucks by probably 10 to 1.In very conservative numbers.IFS currently would make up a very small portion of the Nations fleet,military included. I'm with 304,I like the concept but I want someone else to do the testing.And on the Northeast sector,not an Arizona test track. T.C.

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    Well there is at least several thousand in service right now in Iraq. All of the new transport trucks which are replacing the older 6X6's are made by OTC for the military.

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    sven, you may have better info than I, I know the HEMTT A3 (the new hybrid model) has the TAK-4 suspension, but to the best of my knowlege (and Oshkosh's website) that's it, the older A1 and A2 HEMTTs use a different suspension as do the MTVR (the 7ton 6X6). Anyone know for sure?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter1244
    I think there are more TAK-4's in service than what you think. Oshkosh truck has been putting them in military vehicles for quite a while from what I understand. Then when they bought Pierce....they brought that technology to Pierce and the firetruck industry. I think the majority of the trucks rolling off of the line at Pierce have the TAK-4 in them. Anyone have any numbers or percentages on how many have the IFS vs. non-IFS????
    What? Another non-innovative Pierce innovation?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Fire304- The MTVR is also equipped with the TAK-4. That was the truck I was referring to. I believe the original contract was for 5,000 of this type of truck

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    On a sad related note, 5 marines were killed in Iraq when their MTVR was swept away in a flash flood, three more are missing. That must have been one hell of a flash flood because that's one hell of a big truck.

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    Does anyone have any experience with the Seagrave Air Ride IFS? Is the steering as touchy as the TAK4 at highway speeds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    YES! Its fantastic. Not only the best ride you will ever experience in a piece of fire apparatus, but you get better manuverability and a shorter stopping distance. And as far as maintenance, our 02 Pierce pumper with the TAK4 suspension has almost 38K miles on it, and it still doesnt need new front brakes. Its amazing. My department will never again buy a rig without it.
    What he said!! We have a 2004 Pierce with TAK4 and it is a whole other world. This is the biggest truck we have and it can make 180's in cuedesacs and circles that no other small apparatus can do.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Spartan, Pierce, Ferrara, and Seagrave all can be had with IFS, any others?


    edit: Ferrara
    Last edited by BVFD1983; 05-18-2006 at 01:30 AM.
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by BVFD1983
    Spartan, Pierce, and Seagrave all can be had with IFS, any others?
    Do you know if the TaK 4 is standard on all pierce chassis , except on the Saber which is N/A ?

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    I have no idea, check out their website.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdaenterprises
    Im not sure of the long-term maintenance cost, it concerns me that if this is such a great innovations, why haven't over the road trucks gone to it, initial cost vs. lower maintenance?
    Costs more, weighs more, and requires some rearranging to fit. Dana has it on their concept truck but nobody is demanding it so the OEMs aren't going to spend the money to engineer it. Fleet Owner Article

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    Default IFS and driving

    Do you guys even know how to drive?

    These Pierce IFS trucks suck to drive!! They have no caster!!! they don't track at highway speeds, they don't return to center when your done making a turn and they oversteer like crazy!

    Tell the truth here, you guys that drive these things know what I am talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrofytr
    Do you guys even know how to drive?

    These Pierce IFS trucks suck to drive!! They have no caster!!! they don't track at highway speeds, they don't return to center when your done making a turn and they oversteer like crazy!

    Tell the truth here, you guys that drive these things know what I am talking about
    What are you, a race car driver?

    Every vehicle handles differently, and part of driving fire apparatus is to accustom yourself to the handling characteristics of each rig you operate. In 5 years of having TAK4s in the fleet, they are by far the favorite rigs to drive, and I have never heard a single complaint from our guys similar to yours. Maybe those things do exist, but the drivers adapt to them and accept them.

    In my dept's experience, the Pierce trucks with IFS/TAK4 outperform the others in turning radius, stability, stopping distance, and comfort by a wide margin. We have Spartans, ALFs, and Sutphens of the same age, or newer, but without IFS. Even the 92 Pierce Arrow (pre-TAK4)with over 100k miles still rides better than the 2005 Sutphen. That doesn't mean there isn't a better rig out there than a Pierce with TAK4, it just means we're happy with them.

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    Talking gunnyv

    Thank You Gunny

    So you say you don't have an issue with the steering not turning back to center or any tracking problems at highway speed. When you turn at speed you don't notice the rear leaning over and reacting about half a second after you tell it to turn?

    How about tire wear? any issues with tires over time?

    Thanks for you input on this

    and yes, I am a race car driver.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrofytr
    Do you guys even know how to drive?

    These Pierce IFS trucks suck to drive!! They have no caster!!! they don't track at highway speeds, they don't return to center when your done making a turn and they oversteer like crazy!

    Tell the truth here, you guys that drive these things know what I am talking about
    Right out of the Oshkosh/Pierce TAK-4 service manual:

    This independent suspension has non-adjustable 4 caster, 0 camber, and 6 kingpin inclination angles. The only adjustable setting is the toe-in.
    Increasing the amount of positive caster will increase steering effort and straight line tracking, as well as improve high speed stability and cornering effectiveness. Positive caster also increases tire lean when cornering (almost like having more negative camber) as the steering angle is increased.

    Since the TAK-4 has 4 POSITIVE caster, your assertion is not only clearly incorrect, but tells me you either have no clue what you're talking about, never actually test drove the Pierce at all, that YOU don't know how to drive or evaluate how a vehicle drives, didn't bother to do your research before you ran your mouth OR...all of the above.

    So no, I do not know what you're talking about, and I've driven TAK-4 equipped Pierce (our 2002 Dash midmount tower ladder) under a very wide range of conditions, including pothole laced urban streets and high speed highways, rain, shine, snow, ice, etc. and am very impressed with the IFS system. For 4 YEARS btw, not just some 5 minute joyride around town.

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