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Thread: EMS Grants

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    Forum Member Not2L84U2's Avatar
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    Default EMS Grants

    Ok, quick questions about EMS grants since I haven't had any dealings with them.

    The EMS department I am with is seperate from the fire department in mind and spirit, but on paper we're still under the fire department which is to say that we use the same EIN number because everything is listed under the Village. Since we have the same EIN then we have never applied for a seperate DUNS number. So the question that is coming is then if we were to apply for an AFG would we apply as a fire based EMS organization? Then if we were to apply would that mean that the fire department could not apply for their own AFG? I know that vehicles are competitive for the fire side, is it just the same or worse for EMS? What would be some other high priority items for EMS? Cots and cardiac monitors?


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    Not2L84U2,

    A couple quick question in regards to organization. Is the fire department running the ambulance? If I call for a medical emergency is it the XYZ Fire Department Ambulance or some other desigantion responding?

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    MembersZone Subscriber ameryfd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not2L84U2
    Ok, quick questions about EMS grants since I haven't had any dealings with them.

    The EMS department I am with is seperate from the fire department in mind and spirit, but on paper we're still under the fire department which is to say that we use the same EIN number because everything is listed under the Village. Since we have the same EIN then we have never applied for a seperate DUNS number. So the question that is coming is then if we were to apply for an AFG would we apply as a fire based EMS organization? Then if we were to apply would that mean that the fire department could not apply for their own AFG? I know that vehicles are competitive for the fire side, is it just the same or worse for EMS? What would be some other high priority items for EMS? Cots and cardiac monitors?
    First, I think that you are a fire department. Not 100% sure, but I believe since you are the same organization you'll only be able to apply as either a FD or EMS. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

    Secondly, Ambulances are by the pure mathmatics even tougher to get funded than a Engine. If you apply as a FD, an Ambulance is a low priority and if you apply as an EMS, there isn't much $$ to go around.

    Third....Cots and cardiac are good....I got em for an EMS last year in round 3.

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    The EIN is the determining factor, so since you share one you are one and the same with the fire deparment as far as the AFG is concerned.

    There is less than $3 million for EMS vehicles, so at the average price of $100K per box, there will be 30 awarded. That's pretty much how it went last year, right around 40 of them. No other type of EMS vehicle will be given out, ambulances are the only Priority 1. Same situation as fire vehicles, nothing but P1 will be given out.

    With EMS projects, in both fire department and EMS agency applications the priority goes to the lower level of care, so BLS is higher than ALS. Case in point is going from first responder to EMT-B is higher in priority than EMT-B to EMT-I or -P. Same with equipment, so BLS supplies rate higher than ALS supplies. Nothing disposable is eligible though, so don't put anything that's a single use product in the app, it will get tossed. The whole application that is.

    - Brian

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    Forum Member Not2L84U2's Avatar
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    Many moons ago we were one organization. The fire department operated the ambulance service, but over the years we have went our own ways. I can only think of two people on the EMS side of things that cross staff with the FD. The names are Tilton Fire Dept and Tilton EMS and though the ambulance is housed in the fire stations, by no means does the FD operate the ambulance. It has it's own Chief, set of officers, SOP's, and board of commissioners just as the FD does. The problem though is that the Village of Tilton operates both the FD and the Ambulance so that's where the one EIN number comes into play. It's the same with the streets department and all the other village employees. Everyone uses that one EIN. I kind of figured that the EIN was going to be the hold up. It's a small village and so there has never really been any need for the ambulance to obtain it's own EIN since the checks come from the village. Like I said, I kind of already knew but just had to ask. It's just unfortunate that the two entities don't play well together otherwise we could alternate years, but I'm sure that would go over as well as a lead balloon.

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    Not2L84U2,

    I found this in the FAQ's (2006) which may be of help.

    My EMS organization is co-located with the city fire department. Can we apply as a nonaffiliated EMS organization?

    If your non-affiliated EMS organization does not report to the fire chief and your organization has its own discretionary budget, the non-affiliated EMS organization is eligible to apply for the AFG program even though they are co-located with the fire department.
    Based on what you have written, am I correct that the FD and ambulance are municipal departments? Unless I'm mistaken, municipalities have an EIN that is unique to them, which means every department falls under that EIN whether it's fire, police, DPW, or EMS. Paychecks are issued from the municipality not the individual departments (at least around here any way).

    I understand what Brian is saying, but I think you need additional clarification on the EIN.
    Last edited by onebugle; 02-21-2006 at 05:44 PM.

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    Definitely, if the EIN is the municipality's, then it comes down to the registration of the 'business'. When it's a municipal department, the application is actually the responsibility of the town, even if the FD writes the app and administers the grant because they are not separate from the town. With volunteer organizations that are 'contracted' by a municipality they are usually their own 501c non-profit "business". So if the fire department has their own 501c number, and the EMS service doesn't, then the EMS service needs to get one. Otherwise, they do appear to be the same organization.

    But as we always say, call the local FPS and get the real determination.

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    Forum Member Not2L84U2's Avatar
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    Yes, they are a municipal department and just as onebugle said each department (police, fire, ems, public works, etc) all use the same EIN. However we do have different chiefs. The only other question is the budget. No one department in the village has a budget per say. All of the money for EVERY department comes from general funds, however the EMS side always prepares a "budget" so that way we can track what we are spending and try to prepare for the future a bit.

    So if they are considering us seperate would we use the same DUNS number as the FD then or would we have to apply for one also?

    I think I'll be calling the FPS in the very near future.

    Thanks for the insight though cause at least right now there is a glimmer of hope.

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    No DUNS is the other indicator of separation, same as the 501c filing. If you don't have your own DUNS, then you need to get one. But if you're not your own 501c 3 or 4, then you won't be able to get one I don't believe. Then you are stuck as the same organization, in which case I say go file the non-profit paperwork to make it kosher.

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    My department is / was in the same situation. We are a 3rd service municipal EMS department. Separate service, separate building, separate chief, ect. BC is correct (as usual) stating the DUNS MUST be applied for separately as well. EIN can be the same. A word of warning when you do call the help desk....be prepared to explain your situation several times....3rd service organizations seem to be the minority and can be difficult to describe to those unfamiliar with the concept.

    Last year I applied for an Ambulance and didn't even make the first round...the minimal percentage allotted to the EMS organizations is VERY competitive.

    Good luck!

    Andy

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