1. #1
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    Default How big of a tank needed to be considered a tender?

    A local department is considering applying for an apparatus this year and believe they stand a better chance of getting funded for a tender than an engine even though their preference would be an engine. The theory here being that if they applied for a 1250 gallon tender they could outfit it as an engine. So, is there a particular tank size that make a piece a tender? Also, is their theory/plan legitimate?

    Wolf
    Last edited by Wolf8552; 02-27-2006 at 04:51 PM.

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    This would make a perfect engine and a tanker, if all the other tankers are 1250. Of our two engines (both pumper/tankers) one is a 1000 gallon tank, and the other is a 1250 gallon tank and both tankers are 1250s, so with all of our tanks being relevant in size, this works efficiently for water shuttle.

    The bigger factor to look at is not whether 1250 will make a tanker, but how will a 1250 act when thrown in a water shuttle with 2000 or 3000 gallon tankers (or whatever they have now)? It's going to throw things off, but not as bad as it could if it was a fleet of 1250 tankers with a 3000 thrown in.

    Maybe this made some sense.
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    Default I guess I should clarify.

    Thanks for the quick reply, but I probably wasn't clear with my question.

    What does the AFG program consider to be a tender? 1000, 1250, 1500,....?

    Wolf

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    I think they consider a 24 oz ribeye as tender.

    in all honesty, i do not know. I would imagine 1250 would qualify, but again... i don't know.
    Service is the rent you pay for having space on earth.

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    They will refer to NFPA standards. The minimum tank size for a "Mobile Water Supply Fire Apparatus" (Tanker/Tender) is 1000 gallons.

    We have pumper/tankers in our area that have 1250 and 1500gpm pumps with 2000 and 2500 gallon water tanks.

    We also have tankers/tenders with water tanks ranging from 1500 - 7000 gallons.

    I would go as big as you can based on your response area. i.e. access, steep grades, bridge capacity, etc.
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
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    To answer the original question, DHS's line of demarcation is 1250 gallons. Less is a pumper, more is a tanker. Doesn't matter what you want to call it when it comes home. Adding a real pump to it so you can call it a pumper-tanker when it gets home gives you justification for the extra cost of the truck compared to just a water hauler.

    But don't be fooled into thinking that the tank size is the magic bullet. If you build your case around water supply, 1250 gallons doesn't exactly scream 'hydrant with wheels'. If you need a mobile water supply unit because of a lack of hydrants, 1250 isn't going to solve any problems.

    And if you're thinking that making it 1250 just to squeek into the tanker category and can claim that you don't have a tanker and this is the answer, then you're missing the boat. Maybe that should be missing the truck because PR isn't going to buy the story.

    Then again, don't build something you don't want and therefore can't sell to anyone including yourself. Apply for the TRUE NEEDS to create a COMPLETE SOLUTION to a problem and things will take care of themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC79er
    To answer the original question, DHS's line of demarcation is 1250 gallons. Less is a pumper, more is a tanker. - Brian
    What document states that?

    There program guidance document only states:

    NFPA 1901 or 1906 standards. Used apparatus must be compliant with NFPA 1901 or 1906 standards for the year the vehicle was manufactured.
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
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    We ended up pleading our case for water and added in that we were going to put a "minimum of 1000 gpm pump" to help with ISO and other aspects. Ended up with a 2,500 gallon tank and 1,500 gallon top-mount pump on a two-door KW chassis. Full height compartments on the left, front on the right is full height with the dump tank behind it on the upper level. Ladders are in through the tank. Full hose bed and eight wheel-well bottle compartments with the tandem axles.

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    mtn - the DHS PPT from 2005 stated that in the instructor notes portion, that was below the slides. Unless you changed your MS PPT default view to include the Instructor Notes window, or you printed it out in that format (Print Dialog Box) you would have never seen it. Hence the discussions that ensued in April and May about why they never told anyone. No one has told me they changed that for this year. The only thing they did change was no Instructor notes in this year's PPT presentation, they caught onto us.

    This is the only disconnect from NFPA's statement for whatever reason. But at least it's more. NFPA needs to update. Personally 1000 gallons isn't a tanker unless you've got CAFS to make that 10000 gallons worth of suppression capability. Plain water I say 1500. When ISO says flow 250gpm within a few minutes of arrival, 1000 gallons is 4 minutes worth, 1500 - 6, etc. But that's another thread.

    Anywho, NFPA 1901 is fun to read. The tank size needs to be a minimum of 1000 gallons, but in order to really fall into the Mobile Water Supply Category it needs to empty at 1000gpm out of each tank connection while on lever ground. So unless you specify Dump valves (3), you will just be building a big tanked pumper and not a Tanker. The details can get you every time.

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    Default AFGP Apparatus Startegies

    Folks who are planning on applying for vehicles must remember a few items. First off your chances are very slim.

    Regardless of your community type, historically the AFGP has believed that there is more benefit to be realized by funding fire departments that own few or no vehicles of the type they are asking for than there would be by providing vehicle funding to a department with numerous vehicles of that same type. So if you already have a tender in your fleet your odds of getting funded are VERY slim. If any of your vehicles are newer then 1985 you’re really decreasing your odds.

    When AFGP assesses the number of vehicles a department has within a particular class, they will include all vehicles with similar functions. For example, AFGP will consider the following to be classified in the “pumper” category: pumpers, engines, pumper/tankers, rescue-pumpers, short quints, and urban interface vehicles.

    Priorities in the vehicle acquisition program will again most likely be the safety of firefighters. Departments with unsafe vehicle characteristics will most likely receive the highest consideration. If your vehicle has a history of being unreliable or breakdowns that you can no longer get parts for etc. then you will most likely receive consideration.

    If your department has an old milk truck or other vehicle that was never designed for fire service duty then you will most likely be given consideration. If you have other unsafe items such as a non-compliant open cab, you would most likely receive consideration. All of these things are directed at keeping firefighters safe.

    If you have never owned a tender prior to the grant you will most likely receive consideration.

    In your application if you do not indicate that you will provide for comprehensive driver training on your apparatus you could be getting the kiss of death on your score. Call volume, fleet age and vehicle safety issues are key to becoming successful at getting a vehicle in this program.

    Historically the second priority of the AFGP was to fund departments that were seeking to add more vehicles to their existing fleet within their existing mission areas.

    The lowest priority was to fund new apparatus to expand an applicant’s services into new mission areas.

    Vehicles are a crapshoot as far as I’m concerned, but not impossible. Since this program has started our state has received 95 vehicles, which simply amazes me.

    Good Luck!!
    The opinions stated herein are those of the author and in no way shape or form reflect the opinions of any organization(s) that I am in any way affiliated with unless otherwise indicated.

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    into the Mobile Water Supply Category it needs to empty at 1000gpm out of each tank connection while on lever ground. So unless you specify Dump valves (3), you will just be building a big tanked pumper and not a Tanker

    Should be able to hit that with dual 3" or single 4" tank suctions on a pumper tanker (no dump valves). Choice is usually dictated by what fits. Some of the newest trucks in my area use dual 4" tank suctions.

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    In the past couple years our county which is made up of several township departments has started replacing tankers ,when we get new we speck a 10 inch square rear dump and 2 3 inch direct tank fills off of the back of the truck with hose troughs below where we prconnect 100 foot of 3 inch with a hydrant gate on each side so when we start a shuttle we drop the supply at the hydrant and the next tanker doesnt have to drop theirs or mess with shutting the hydrant down just the gates. One of these was purchased with a afg grant and the tanks are 3000 gal with 1250 pumps and intake on the front bumper and both sides of the truck.With these filling and dumping set ups on a good hydrant we can fill in under 4 minutes and dump in half the time.

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