1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Because PD is on the road 24 hours a day preventing crimes. FD is on the road only when it's needed.
    You forgot to exclude their meal time and time spent in the parking lot of the local Dunkin Donuts!

    Actually, the FD is on the road a lot more than you think... calls, inspections, prefire planning, district familairization, driver training, public education.....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Because PD is on the road 24 hours a day preventing crimes. FD is on the road only when it's needed.
    Nah...they spend 90% of their time sitting around waiting for the call, just like us. They sit in their cars; we sit in the dayroom. Not much difference, there. We do reports, preplanning, fire safety, public relations, inspections, housework, maintenance, man the phones, recruitment, training, and dozens of other things on a daily basis. We probably spend more time preventing fire and promoting fire safety than our police officers do actually "preventing" crime. Most of time, their jobs are to respond to the incident after the fact...just like us.
    That and write tickets and eat doughnuts all day.

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    why is it that society as a whole sees no problem in having a paid police department and wouldnt ever imagine having a volunteer PD.

    There are very basic things that differentiates police and fire work, making paid police inherintley more affordable. Many towns can cover their needs with as many officers as a FD would call an "Ambulance."

    Any standards George for anything in the police world that says to the goal is to have 16 Police Officers at the scene of a bread & butter call for them in 8 minutes?

    That's what NFPA 1710 sets up for fire protection...

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    From vacationing there each Summer I discovered that North Myrtle Beach, SC utilizes a combined system of Police / Fire working in joint positions.

    The North Myrtle Beach Department of Public Safety as it's called has cross-trained members {Fire and Police} that function in either capacity as deemed nesessary. I don't have all the details on how it works but apparentley they've had it in place for several years -- Seems to work for 'em from what I've had the chance to see.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman
    Nah...they spend 90% of their time sitting around waiting for the call, just like us. They sit in their cars; we sit in the dayroom. Not much difference, there. We do reports, preplanning, fire safety, public relations, inspections, housework, maintenance, man the phones, recruitment, training, and dozens of other things on a daily basis. We probably spend more time preventing fire and promoting fire safety than our police officers do actually "preventing" crime. Most of time, their jobs are to respond to the incident after the fact...just like us.
    That and write tickets and eat doughnuts all day.
    Your FD might, but the majority of FD's absolutely do not.

    The rest of the post is right on.

    Yeah, that was me who said that.

  6. #31
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    pfd4life:
    Ashwaubenon, which is a city an hour north of me(suburb of Green Bay) has a PSD, where all employees are an EMT for a shift a LEO for a shift and a FF for a shift. Most that I've talked to enjoy the variety and the challenges that each discipline provides.
    True. Ashwaubenon is the city that Lambeau Field, home of the great Green Bay Packers () is located. I have a close friend that works there. They are all trained police officers, firefighters and paramedics. One day they work the engine, one day they work the ambulance, and one day they are on patrol in the squad car. They all carry their weapons whenever they are working and have vests on the engines and ambulances for those "just in case" things that happen. There has been times when and ambulance crew is the closest back up to an officer at a family trouble or some sort of emergency police call. They try to avoid that as to not tie up an ambulance but if it's needed, it's needed.

    I think if the Public Safety Officer idea is done right, as is in Ashwaubenon, WI., it would be a great idea. I have heard other horror stories of a PSO deal went bad in others because of poor management, cash flow, or otherwise.
    Last edited by Dickey; 03-02-2006 at 12:41 AM.
    Jason Knecht
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    Thumbs down Just say NO to x-training!

    There is a right way and a wrong way to operate a public safety department. The right way requires an appropriate amount of people to handle the emergency needs of the community -- with most, if not all, employees cross-trained in all specialties. The wrong way involves a police department with fire trucks and/or ambulances. Unfortunately, most cities choose the wrong way. I know -- I've worked for one.

    Most cities choose public safety departments not because they are a good way to deliver services, but because they can have one guy do two or three jobs. So, what happens is that you have a department that does a fair job at providing multiple services but doesn't excel at any one of them.

    When I was hired on at my job in 2002, we were a Department of Public Safety. Normal staffing was one fire engineer and two or three patrol officers. Any fire run or any significal EMS call totally stripped the city of police protection. Once upon a time, they operated an ambulance in addition to fire and police with the same staffing. Again, the city didn't choose to have a DPS because it was the right thing to do. They chose the DPS model because it was the cheap thing to do.

    In addition to operations, the other problem hindering our DPS was rank structure. There was ONE position in the fire division for non-cops -- firefighter/engineer. Sure, there were sergeant positions and lieutenant positions. But to get those, you had to be a police officer. So, we were essentially a police department with fire trucks. Sadly, my city wasn't the last that could qualify as such.

    Morale has increased 1,000% or more since the DPS was abolished. People who want to be police officers get to be police officers. People who want to be firefighters get to be firefighters. It's the way the world was meant to be.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace


    Some of them think they are firemen......
    And the rest wish they were!


    *Mark
    FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

  9. #34
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    Don't forget about airports. Nashville Airport DPS was the pilot department that started with officers being cross-trained as firefighters (at least for airports). We currently have around 64 commissioned personnel. All of which are cross-trained Aircraft Firefighting/rescue. 1/3 of us are EMT/EMT-IV certified with the remainder licensed as First Responders. We have SWAT, EOD, Hazmat, Bike Patrol, Crisis negotiations, K9, and crime scene techs just to name a few. I think it's a great idea if it can be implemented right. We work 5-day work weeks, usually 4 police and 1 fire. One day you may work a code, the next, a DUI arrest. It's fun work. Something different every day.

    All new hires have to go through the 10 wk police academy, 60 hr First Responder (if not an EMT), 2 wk basic (rookie) FF school, 1 wk at an Aircraft firefighting facility and 20 wks of FTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1983
    LMAO!!
    Talk about a conflict.

    I dunno, I always thought that FF's and cops are cut from a different cloth. They have a completeley different mindset and outlook on things. The whoe idea just sounds weird too me...
    I used to be a police officer. Now I am a firefighter. Yes, there are vast differences. There are even differences in the radio communications and how they are handled in dispatch. I'm not saying that the two disciplines are exlusive in their roles, rather that they are complimentary. It is often necessary to demarcate between them so that those who's aptitude is geared toward one can function as such. Think of it like this. A police officer will always have crime scene/evidence preservation in the back of his mind. This is a good mind set for everyone on a structure fire; however, preservation sorta goes up with the smoke when the first priority is to supress. Fire departments already have to enforce burn bans and fire codes. And most of us gripe about that.

    Firefighters can be an effective liaison for the police by being tied into the dispatch center and reporting and observing until police arrive in situations that warrant it.

    The only way that something like that could effectively work, in my opinion, is if the municipality grandfathers the existing personnel and implements the policy of cross-training on new-hires only. That way, a person applying KNOWS that he or she is expected to double, or triple certify during their employment...and the program can be phased in.

    As for me, I traded in the pointy mean badge for the round happy badge, and I have never regretted it.

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    I guess I've never really seen a problem with police officers performing firefighting duties when needed. I mean stricktly firefighting though. I think EMS response is the real reason why it's probably not such a good idea. Fact is that the public just doesn't trust cops the way they trust first responders, EMT's and Paramedics. Someone gets hurt and calls 911 and a cop shows up to provide medical care, they're probably going to act differently around him than they would around a medic (even though if they're really hurting they should still be glad that someone showed up to help).
    IAFF - Fire/EMS

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